Thought of doing that myself. I guess I am just lazy! Instinctive conservation of energy?
--- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > Rewrisk, > > So, if you're in East coast Australia (like Sydney) you at GMT +10 so are > only 3-hours later than me. > > I arrived at that information using my cognitive processes and my MS/Windows > Time/Date program by the way. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: > > > > I'm on the east coast in Aus however that translates in GMT. > > Sure whatever. > > And fair enough. > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > Rewrisk, > > > > > > I don't know what time zone you are in, but I'm usually in GMT +7 which > > > around a half-day difference from most of the USA - if that's where you > > > are. > > > > > > I certainly won't get 'scared off', but neither will I try to 'get my > > > head around you'. You are who you are, and come to this forum with all > > > the knowledge and beliefs your experiences have provided you. > > > > > > I only care to try to communicate my experiences in this text-bound > > > medium as best I can. > > > > > > As I said earlier - Welcome! > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > send fail....... > > > > Actually if he is as good as you seem to think then he is trying to get > > > > his head around me. If so then I wish him well of it. > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I think I must have scared him off. > > > > > I can be abrupt. > > > > > It's been twenty five years since I first entered the Dark Stone > > > > > Temple. > > > > > The rampant ignorance ruling this world terrifies me. > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], ChrisAustinLane <chris@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > This interchange is most amusing. > > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect the two senior practitioners are in violent agreement. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill is no philosopher, tho he manifests a love of wisdom. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Chris Austin-Lane > > > > > > Sent from a cell phone > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 22, 2012, at 19:30, "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rubbish! > > > > > > > The Abyss may be dark but it is hardly empty so do not speak to > > > > > > > me of what you do not know phillosopher. > > > > > > > Reality is entirely ordered to the unfettered mind. > > > > > > > Chaos is a failure to grasp reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Rewrisk, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> The abyss is the absence of rationality - chaos. And yes you > > > > > > >> must jump into it (the unknown and unknowable) to rid yourself > > > > > > >> of your attachments. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> But don't to it so as to know. The abyss does not contain > > > > > > >> knowledge or the access to knowledge or illumination of some > > > > > > >> kind. The abyss is completely dark and empty. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> ...Bill! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> --- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> No? > > > > > > >>> You are quite wrong. > > > > > > >>> They are all true! > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> The abyss is real and you must 'jump' into it. > > > > > > >>> If you would know? > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> Anthony, > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> Zen stories, perhaps even more than most, are symbolic - many > > > > > > >>>> are allegories and should not be taken literally. I say zen > > > > > > >>>> stories use this device more than most because much of what > > > > > > >>>> zen is about cannot be totally expressed with words - > > > > > > >>>> espcially written words. Face-to-face dialog is better, but > > > > > > >>>> as you know some zen masters tried to express and communicate > > > > > > >>>> their experience of Buddha Nature without words - with just > > > > > > >>>> sounds or even just actions. At least that's my opinion. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> The 'Jumping into the Abyss' phrase/allegory was taken from > > > > > > >>>> what you've called the physical world. When we stand at the > > > > > > >>>> edge of an abyss and contemplate jumping we will probably be > > > > > > >>>> terrified. It would take an act of either extreme desperation > > > > > > >>>> or faith to jump. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> That is the same kind of desparation or faith that is needed > > > > > > >>>> to sever all attachements to the illusion of 'self' and > > > > > > >>>> rationality and throw yourself into the 'abyss' - Buddha > > > > > > >>>> Nature. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> ...Bill! > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Bill, > > > > > > >>>>> à > > > > > > >>>>> Quote:à in zen stories as 'leaping into the abyss' > > > > > > >>>>> à > > > > > > >>>>> Since the physical world is part of the reality, can you do > > > > > > >>>>> that physically? > > > > > > >>>>> à > > > > > > >>>>> Anthony > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> ________________________________ > > > > > > >>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > >>>>> To: [email protected] > > > > > > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 11 January 2012, 10:19 > > > > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, > > > > > > >>>>> How did your friends & family react? > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> à > > > > > > >>>>> Siska, > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> The belief in cause-and-effect is an attempt by your > > > > > > >>>>> discriminating mind to 'understand' reality, to 'make > > > > > > >>>>> sense'of experience which is fundamentally chaotic. It is a > > > > > > >>>>> process of breaking up wholistic experience (Just THIS!) into > > > > > > >>>>> pieces, and then to categorize and even directly associating > > > > > > >>>>> some pieces with others by assigning a dependent > > > > > > >>>>> cause-and-effect relationship to these pairs or sets of > > > > > > >>>>> pieces. The establishment of these cause-and-effect > > > > > > >>>>> relationships are done to fit your needs at the time. They > > > > > > >>>>> are not absolute, objective or real. They are relational, > > > > > > >>>>> subjective and illusory - this is because they are dependent > > > > > > >>>>> upon your dualistic concept of self/other. The illusion of > > > > > > >>>>> cause-and-effect helps you feel more comfortable and gives > > > > > > >>>>> you a certain sense of control of life. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> The concept of karma is a spritualized version of > > > > > > >>>>> cause-and-effect which is usually thought of as purely a > > > > > > >>>>> physical relationship. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in > > > > > > >>>>> zen stories as 'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step > > > > > > >>>>> off the 100-ft flagpole'. These are teachings telling you > > > > > > >>>>> that you must let go of your attachments (espcially to logic > > > > > > >>>>> and the belief in cause-and-effect), come out of your fantasy > > > > > > >>>>> comfort zone, throw away your illusory security blanket and > > > > > > >>>>> throw yourself completly into the stark unknown and > > > > > > >>>>> unknowable. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. > > > > > > >>>>> Just THIS! > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> ...Bill! > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Hi Bill, > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. > > > > > > >>>>>> Would you then say that cause and effect is illusory? > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Siska > > > > > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > > > > > >>>>>> From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > > > > >>>>>> Sender: [email protected] > > > > > > >>>>>> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 > > > > > > >>>>>> To: <[email protected]> > > > > > > >>>>>> Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, > > > > > > >>>>>> How did your friends & family react? > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Anthony, > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or > > > > > > >>>>>> 'other than you'. When you say 'karma functions by itself' > > > > > > >>>>>> you are implying that karma exists independently of you; > > > > > > >>>>>> like when you say 'not my will but Yours (God's) be done' > > > > > > >>>>>> you are implying that God exists independently of you. You > > > > > > >>>>>> are implying that 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' - > > > > > > >>>>>> outside of and/or separate from you. > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and > > > > > > >>>>>> all their supposed attributes and associated > > > > > > >>>>>> powers/activites are NOT separate from you. That are created > > > > > > >>>>>> by you - by your discriminating mind. They are illusory. > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. > > > > > > >>>>>> If you loot, there is looting. If you are looted, you loose > > > > > > >>>>>> property. The killing is not the cause and the dieing the > > > > > > >>>>>> effect. It is the same action viewed or described from two > > > > > > >>>>>> perspectives. It is Just THIS! > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> This is my experience...Bill! > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Bill, > > > > > > >>>>>>> Ãâà > > > > > > >>>>>>> The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any > > > > > > >>>>>>> other 'outside agent'. It functions by itself. On the other > > > > > > >>>>>>> hand, if you deny karma, does that mean whatever you do, > > > > > > >>>>>>> whether killing, looting or burning, does not have any > > > > > > >>>>>>> effects? You may say you rely on law to take care of it. > > > > > > >>>>>>> But that is part of karma, at the human level. > > > > > > >>>>>>> Nevertheless, it is more realistic than reliance on God. if > > > > > > >>>>>>> all are illusory, killing and looting will be out of > > > > > > >>>>>>> control. In that case, believing in God is better than > > > > > > >>>>>>> believing in nothing. > > > > > > >>>>>>> Ãâà > > > > > > >>>>>>> Anthony > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> ________________________________ > > > > > > >>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > >>>>>>> To: [email protected] > > > > > > >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 > > > > > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, > > > > > > >>>>>>> How did your friends & family react? > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Ãâà > > > > > > >>>>>>> Anthony, > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> How are they different concepts? > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), > > > > > > >>>>>>> and both exist as a concept in your mind. > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or > > > > > > >>>>>>> bad (good deeds lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; > > > > > > >>>>>>> or accumulation of [bad] karma leads to being re-born as a > > > > > > >>>>>>> toad) is just packaging. Likewise attributng the > > > > > > >>>>>>> enforcement of actions/reactions or cause/effect to an > > > > > > >>>>>>> outside agency such as karma or God is also just packaging. > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> ...Bill! > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Bill, > > > > > > >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > > >>>>>>>> It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. > > > > > > >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Anthony > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> ________________________________ > > > > > > >>>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, > > > > > > >>>>>>>> How did your friends & family react? > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Anthony, > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not > > > > > > >>>>>>>> think that definition could not also be applied to the > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Christian concept of sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> For me it's the same message in a different envelope. > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> ...Bill! > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Karma is action and reaction by yourself through your own > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> mind (or Buddha nature). > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Anthony > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> buddhism, How did your friends & family react? > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> go to Heaven and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> ItÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> is not at all surprising that you got a funny reaction > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> from people surrounding you when you said you were > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> interested in Buddhism. Try doing the same thing with > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Moslems, and you get a funnier response. Even in this > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> forum, which is less hostile to Buddhism, you find > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> different views on it. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> agrees to karma. The difference between the two is the > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> former insists that karma is your own business, nobody > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> else can help you change it. However, in Hinduism, there > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> are powerful deities who respond to your requests and > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> assist you. Don't forget we are a zen forum, and there > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> are a view I term chaotic zen, which denies anything on > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> karma, or any laws or rules. They say everything is in > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> chaos. On the other hand, you will also hear all kinds > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> of Buddhist views here. I hope you have fun here. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Anthony > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> How did your friends & family react? > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> buddhism, just recently starting reading up on it the > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> past several months, although technically I've been > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> exposed to it for many years through a variety of tv > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> shows, movies, etc. My favorite was Kung Fu: The Legend > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Continues. Don't know why, but the scenes with the > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> shoalin temple and buddhist monks were always my > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> favorite. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Although I haven't come right out and said to my family > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> (except for my sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> they've seen the books and notes I leave to myself > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> pertaining to it. So far, it has not been encouraging. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> They kind of give a disgusted look or a groan when they > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> see it that suggests that they are not happy about it. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> They are catholics. I'm an atheist (which they've known > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> for years). When I finally told my sister that I'd like > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> to visit a temple in town, she got disqusted and said > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> "why? You'll never go with me to my church, but you'll > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> go to a buddhist church?" I didn't know what to say, so > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I told her the truth, that I didn't feel anything for > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> catholicism anymore, and that it didn't feel like the > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> right religion for me. She wasn't pleased. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> at work. I get along great with both of them, known them > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> for several years. My co-worker mentioned she and her > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> husband were atheists, so I told her I was too. We both > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> got a kick out of it realizing that we never knew that > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> about each other. Then I mentioned to her that I had > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> been reading up on buddhism lately, and she gave the > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> same kind of groan I've been hearing from my family. My > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> boss just sort of gave a look of shock and disbelief, > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> didn't say anything. I couple of weeks or so before > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> that, I was discussing various books with another boss > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> that we like to read, and I mentioned one I'd been > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> reading called the Peaceful Warrior. He asked what it > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> was about so I told him, and when I mentioned it has a > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> buddhist theme to it, he gave a funny look. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> What's funny about all of this is that I've always > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> figured buddhism to be one of the most revered and > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> highly respected forms of philosophy and religion on > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> earth. Even growing up I felt that way. When I go online > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to ask a question pertaining > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> to it, I haven't had any bad replies over a single > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> question, and if any of you have ever been on there, you > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> know they can be harsh sometimes in that section. So it > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> really threw me for a loop seeing all these crazy > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> reactions from people I know. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Did any of you get these same reactions from the people > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> you knew when you were first learning about buddhism? > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read > > > > > > > or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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