"Hey pal! How do I get to town from here? ...and he said:
Well just take a right where they're going to build that new shopping mall, Go straight past where they're going to put in the freeway, Take a left at what's going to be the new sports center, And keep going until you hit the place where they're thinking of building that drive-in bank, You can't miss it. ...and I said: This must be the place!" BIG SCIENCE by Laurie Anderson Shared by Bill! --- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@...> wrote: > > Watching the phases of the moon. > Feeling the swell and ebb of tides. > Other tides draw me on still. > The serpent turns seeking but fails to see. > A darkness looms. > Now I recognize the way. > I trip, I fall, I brake untill I am no more. > The darkness is not empty it could be no more full. > Reaching, impossible distances. > It is alone in the emptiness that the light blooms. > > At the heart of the galactic plane of our cosmos is a supermassive black hole. > I know it. > It is the utter fullness of things. > And far too much for me. > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > Rewrist, > > > > Au contraire mon ami! > > > > The abyss is empty. > > > > Order is just another illusion created by your discriminating, rational > > mind. > > > > In order to jump into the abyss you need to quit clinging to these > > illusions. > > > > Last one in's a rotten egg! ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: > > > > > > Rubbish! > > > The Abyss may be dark but it is hardly empty so do not speak to me of > > > what you do not know phillosopher. > > > Reality is entirely ordered to the unfettered mind. > > > Chaos is a failure to grasp reality. > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Rewrisk, > > > > > > > > The abyss is the absence of rationality - chaos. And yes you must jump > > > > into it (the unknown and unknowable) to rid yourself of your > > > > attachments. > > > > > > > > But don't to it so as to know. The abyss does not contain knowledge or > > > > the access to knowledge or illumination of some kind. The abyss is > > > > completely dark and empty. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > No? > > > > > You are quite wrong. > > > > > They are all true! > > > > > > > > > > The abyss is real and you must 'jump' into it. > > > > > If you would know? > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > Zen stories, perhaps even more than most, are symbolic - many are > > > > > > allegories and should not be taken literally. I say zen stories > > > > > > use this device more than most because much of what zen is about > > > > > > cannot be totally expressed with words - espcially written words. > > > > > > Face-to-face dialog is better, but as you know some zen masters > > > > > > tried to express and communicate their experience of Buddha Nature > > > > > > without words - with just sounds or even just actions. At least > > > > > > that's my opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > The 'Jumping into the Abyss' phrase/allegory was taken from what > > > > > > you've called the physical world. When we stand at the edge of an > > > > > > abyss and contemplate jumping we will probably be terrified. It > > > > > > would take an act of either extreme desperation or faith to jump. > > > > > > > > > > > > That is the same kind of desparation or faith that is needed to > > > > > > sever all attachements to the illusion of 'self' and rationality > > > > > > and throw yourself into the 'abyss' - Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > Quote: in zen stories as 'leaping into the abyss' > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > Since the physical world is part of the reality, can you do that > > > > > > > physically? > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 11 January 2012, 10:19 > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > > > > did your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The belief in cause-and-effect is an attempt by your > > > > > > > discriminating mind to 'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of > > > > > > > experience which is fundamentally chaotic. It is a process of > > > > > > > breaking up wholistic experience (Just THIS!) into pieces, and > > > > > > > then to categorize and even directly associating some pieces with > > > > > > > others by assigning a dependent cause-and-effect relationship to > > > > > > > these pairs or sets of pieces. The establishment of these > > > > > > > cause-and-effect relationships are done to fit your needs at the > > > > > > > time. They are not absolute, objective or real. They are > > > > > > > relational, subjective and illusory - this is because they are > > > > > > > dependent upon your dualistic concept of self/other. The illusion > > > > > > > of cause-and-effect helps you feel more comfortable and gives you > > > > > > > a certain sense of control of life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The concept of karma is a spritualized version of > > > > > > > cause-and-effect which is usually thought of as purely a physical > > > > > > > relationship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in zen > > > > > > > stories as 'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step off the > > > > > > > 100-ft flagpole'. These are teachings telling you that you must > > > > > > > let go of your attachments (espcially to logic and the belief in > > > > > > > cause-and-effect), come out of your fantasy comfort zone, throw > > > > > > > away your illusory security blanket and throw yourself completly > > > > > > > into the stark unknown and unknowable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. Just > > > > > > > THIS! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. > > > > > > > > Would you then say that cause and effect is illusory? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 > > > > > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > > > > > > did your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other > > > > > > > > than you'. When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are > > > > > > > > implying that karma exists independently of you; like when you > > > > > > > > say 'not my will but Yours (God's) be done' you are implying > > > > > > > > that God exists independently of you. You are implying that > > > > > > > > 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' - outside of and/or > > > > > > > > separate from you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all > > > > > > > > their supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are > > > > > > > > NOT separate from you. That are created by you - by your > > > > > > > > discriminating mind. They are illusory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If > > > > > > > > you loot, there is looting. If you are looted, you loose > > > > > > > > property. The killing is not the cause and the dieing the > > > > > > > > effect. It is the same action viewed or described from two > > > > > > > > perspectives. It is Just THIS! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is my experience...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > à> > > > > > > > > The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any > > > > > > > > > other 'outside agent'. It functions by itself. On the other > > > > > > > > > hand, if you deny karma, does that mean whatever you do, > > > > > > > > > whether killing, looting or burning, does not have any > > > > > > > > > effects? You may say you rely on law to take care of it. But > > > > > > > > > that is part of karma, at the human level. Nevertheless, it > > > > > > > > > is more realistic than reliance on God. if all are illusory, > > > > > > > > > killing and looting will be out of control. In that case, > > > > > > > > > believing in God is better than believing in nothing. > > > > > > > > > à> > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, > > > > > > > > > How did your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > à> > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How are they different concepts? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and > > > > > > > > > both exist as a concept in your mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or > > > > > > > > > bad (good deeds lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or > > > > > > > > > accumulation of [bad] karma leads to being re-born as a toad) > > > > > > > > > is just packaging. Likewise attributng the enforcement of > > > > > > > > > actions/reactions or cause/effect to an outside agency such > > > > > > > > > as karma or God is also just packaging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, > > > > > > > > > > How did your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not > > > > > > > > > > think that definition could not also be applied to the > > > > > > > > > > Christian concept of sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For me it's the same message in a different envelope. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. > > > > > > > > > > > Karma is action and reaction by yourself through your own > > > > > > > > > > > mind (or Buddha nature). > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about > > > > > > > > > > > buddhism, How did your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you > > > > > > > > > > > go to Heaven and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ItÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàis not at > > > > > > > > > > > > all surprising that you got a funny reaction from > > > > > > > > > > > > people surrounding you when you said you were > > > > > > > > > > > > interested in Buddhism. Try doing the same thing with > > > > > > > > > > > > Moslems, and you get a funnier response. Even in this > > > > > > > > > > > > forum, which is less hostile to Buddhism, you find > > > > > > > > > > > > different views on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also > > > > > > > > > > > > agrees to karma. The difference between the two is the > > > > > > > > > > > > former insists that karma is your own business, nobody > > > > > > > > > > > > else can help you change it. However, in Hinduism, > > > > > > > > > > > > there are powerful deities who respond to your requests > > > > > > > > > > > > and assist you. Don't forget we are a zen forum, and > > > > > > > > > > > > there are a view I term chaotic zen, which denies > > > > > > > > > > > > anything on karma, or any laws or rules. They say > > > > > > > > > > > > everything is in chaos. On the other hand, you will > > > > > > > > > > > > also hear all kinds of Buddhist views here. I hope you > > > > > > > > > > > > have fun here. > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, > > > > > > > > > > > > How did your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to > > > > > > > > > > > > buddhism, just recently starting reading up on it the > > > > > > > > > > > > past several months, although technically I've been > > > > > > > > > > > > exposed to it for many years through a variety of tv > > > > > > > > > > > > shows, movies, etc. My favorite was Kung Fu: The Legend > > > > > > > > > > > > Continues. Don't know why, but the scenes with the > > > > > > > > > > > > shoalin temple and buddhist monks were always my > > > > > > > > > > > > favorite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although I haven't come right out and said to my family > > > > > > > > > > > > (except for my sister) that I'm learning about > > > > > > > > > > > > Buddhism, they've seen the books and notes I leave to > > > > > > > > > > > > myself pertaining to it. So far, it has not been > > > > > > > > > > > > encouraging. They kind of give a disgusted look or a > > > > > > > > > > > > groan when they see it that suggests that they are not > > > > > > > > > > > > happy about it. They are catholics. I'm an atheist > > > > > > > > > > > > (which they've known for years). When I finally told my > > > > > > > > > > > > sister that I'd like to visit a temple in town, she got > > > > > > > > > > > > disqusted and said "why? You'll never go with me to my > > > > > > > > > > > > church, but you'll go to a buddhist church?" I didn't > > > > > > > > > > > > know what to say, so I told her the truth, that I > > > > > > > > > > > > didn't feel anything for catholicism anymore, and that > > > > > > > > > > > > it didn't feel like the right religion for me. She > > > > > > > > > > > > wasn't pleased. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and > > > > > > > > > > > > boss at work. I get along great with both of them, > > > > > > > > > > > > known them for several years. My co-worker mentioned > > > > > > > > > > > > she and her husband were atheists, so I told her I was > > > > > > > > > > > > too. We both got a kick out of it realizing that we > > > > > > > > > > > > never knew that about each other. Then I mentioned to > > > > > > > > > > > > her that I had been reading up on buddhism lately, and > > > > > > > > > > > > she gave the same kind of groan I've been hearing from > > > > > > > > > > > > my family. My boss just sort of gave a look of shock > > > > > > > > > > > > and disbelief, didn't say anything. I couple of weeks > > > > > > > > > > > > or so before that, I was discussing various books with > > > > > > > > > > > > another boss that we like to read, and I mentioned one > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd been reading called the Peaceful Warrior. He asked > > > > > > > > > > > > what it was about so I told him, and when I mentioned > > > > > > > > > > > > it has a buddhist theme to it, he gave a funny look. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's funny about all of this is that I've always > > > > > > > > > > > > figured buddhism to be one of the most revered and > > > > > > > > > > > > highly respected forms of philosophy and religion on > > > > > > > > > > > > earth. Even growing up I felt that way. When I go > > > > > > > > > > > > online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to ask a question > > > > > > > > > > > > pertaining to it, I haven't had any bad replies over a > > > > > > > > > > > > single question, and if any of you have ever been on > > > > > > > > > > > > there, you know they can be harsh sometimes in that > > > > > > > > > > > > section. So it really threw me for a loop seeing all > > > > > > > > > > > > these crazy reactions from people I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did any of you get these same reactions from the people > > > > > > > > > > > > you knew when you were first learning about buddhism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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