I think I must have scared him off. I can be abrupt. It's been twenty five years since I first entered the Dark Stone Temple. The rampant ignorance ruling this world terrifies me.
--- In [email protected], ChrisAustinLane <chris@...> wrote: > > This interchange is most amusing. > > I suspect the two senior practitioners are in violent agreement. > > Bill is no philosopher, tho he manifests a love of wisdom. > > Thanks, > Chris Austin-Lane > Sent from a cell phone > > On Jan 22, 2012, at 19:30, "rewrisk" <rewrisk@...> wrote: > > > Rubbish! > > The Abyss may be dark but it is hardly empty so do not speak to me of what > > you do not know phillosopher. > > Reality is entirely ordered to the unfettered mind. > > Chaos is a failure to grasp reality. > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > >> > >> Rewrisk, > >> > >> The abyss is the absence of rationality - chaos. And yes you must jump > >> into it (the unknown and unknowable) to rid yourself of your attachments. > >> > >> But don't to it so as to know. The abyss does not contain knowledge or > >> the access to knowledge or illumination of some kind. The abyss is > >> completely dark and empty. > >> > >> ...Bill! > >> > >> --- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: > >>> > >>> No? > >>> You are quite wrong. > >>> They are all true! > >>> > >>> The abyss is real and you must 'jump' into it. > >>> If you would know? > >>> > >>> --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Anthony, > >>>> > >>>> Zen stories, perhaps even more than most, are symbolic - many are > >>>> allegories and should not be taken literally. I say zen stories use > >>>> this device more than most because much of what zen is about cannot be > >>>> totally expressed with words - espcially written words. Face-to-face > >>>> dialog is better, but as you know some zen masters tried to express and > >>>> communicate their experience of Buddha Nature without words - with just > >>>> sounds or even just actions. At least that's my opinion. > >>>> > >>>> The 'Jumping into the Abyss' phrase/allegory was taken from what you've > >>>> called the physical world. When we stand at the edge of an abyss and > >>>> contemplate jumping we will probably be terrified. It would take an act > >>>> of either extreme desperation or faith to jump. > >>>> > >>>> That is the same kind of desparation or faith that is needed to sever > >>>> all attachements to the illusion of 'self' and rationality and throw > >>>> yourself into the 'abyss' - Buddha Nature. > >>>> > >>>> ...Bill! > >>>> > >>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Bill, > >>>>> à > >>>>> Quote:à in zen stories as 'leaping into the abyss' > >>>>> à > >>>>> Since the physical world is part of the reality, can you do that > >>>>> physically? > >>>>> à > >>>>> Anthony > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 11 January 2012, 10:19 > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > >>>>> friends & family react? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> à > >>>>> Siska, > >>>>> > >>>>> Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory. > >>>>> > >>>>> The belief in cause-and-effect is an attempt by your discriminating > >>>>> mind to 'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of experience which is > >>>>> fundamentally chaotic. It is a process of breaking up wholistic > >>>>> experience (Just THIS!) into pieces, and then to categorize and even > >>>>> directly associating some pieces with others by assigning a dependent > >>>>> cause-and-effect relationship to these pairs or sets of pieces. The > >>>>> establishment of these cause-and-effect relationships are done to fit > >>>>> your needs at the time. They are not absolute, objective or real. They > >>>>> are relational, subjective and illusory - this is because they are > >>>>> dependent upon your dualistic concept of self/other. The illusion of > >>>>> cause-and-effect helps you feel more comfortable and gives you a > >>>>> certain sense of control of life. > >>>>> > >>>>> The concept of karma is a spritualized version of cause-and-effect > >>>>> which is usually thought of as purely a physical relationship. > >>>>> > >>>>> The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in zen stories > >>>>> as 'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step off the 100-ft > >>>>> flagpole'. These are teachings telling you that you must let go of your > >>>>> attachments (espcially to logic and the belief in cause-and-effect), > >>>>> come out of your fantasy comfort zone, throw away your illusory > >>>>> security blanket and throw yourself completly into the stark unknown > >>>>> and unknowable. > >>>>> > >>>>> There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. Just THIS! > >>>>> > >>>>> ...Bill! > >>>>> > >>>>> --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Bill, > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. > >>>>>> Would you then say that cause and effect is illusory? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Siska > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > >>>>>> Sender: [email protected] > >>>>>> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 > >>>>>> To: <[email protected]> > >>>>>> Reply-To: [email protected] > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > >>>>>> your friends & family react? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Anthony, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than > >>>>>> you'. When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are implying that > >>>>>> karma exists independently of you; like when you say 'not my will but > >>>>>> Yours (God's) be done' you are implying that God exists independently > >>>>>> of you. You are implying that 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' > >>>>>> - outside of and/or separate from you. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all their > >>>>>> supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT separate > >>>>>> from you. That are created by you - by your discriminating mind. They > >>>>>> are illusory. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If you > >>>>>> loot, there is looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The > >>>>>> killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same > >>>>>> action viewed or described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This is my experience...Bill! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Bill, > >>>>>>> Ãâà > >>>>>>> The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other > >>>>>>> 'outside agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if you > >>>>>>> deny karma, does that mean whatever you do, whether killing, looting > >>>>>>> or burning, does not have any effects? You may say you rely on law to > >>>>>>> take care of it. But that is part of karma, at the human level. > >>>>>>> Nevertheless, it is more realistic than reliance on God. if all are > >>>>>>> illusory, killing and looting will be out of control. In that case, > >>>>>>> believing in God is better than believing in nothing. > >>>>>>> Ãâà > >>>>>>> Anthony > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > >>>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > >>>>>>> your friends & family react? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Ãâà > >>>>>>> Anthony, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> How are they different concepts? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and both > >>>>>>> exist as a concept in your mind. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad (good > >>>>>>> deeds lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or accumulation of > >>>>>>> [bad] karma leads to being re-born as a toad) is just packaging. > >>>>>>> Likewise attributng the enforcement of actions/reactions or > >>>>>>> cause/effect to an outside agency such as karma or God is also just > >>>>>>> packaging. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ...Bill! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Bill, > >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > >>>>>>>> It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. > >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > >>>>>>>> Anthony > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > >>>>>>>> your friends & family react? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > >>>>>>>> Anthony, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not think > >>>>>>>> that definition could not also be applied to the Christian concept > >>>>>>>> of sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> For me it's the same message in a different envelope. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ...Bill! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is > >>>>>>>>> action and reaction by yourself through your own mind (or Buddha > >>>>>>>>> nature). > >>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > >>>>>>>>> Anthony > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > >>>>>>>>> your friends & family react? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > >>>>>>>>> Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you go to > >>>>>>>>> Heaven and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> ItÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > >>>>>>>>>> is not at all surprising that you got a funny reaction from > >>>>>>>>>> people surrounding you when you said you were interested in > >>>>>>>>>> Buddhism. Try doing the same thing with Moslems, and you get a > >>>>>>>>>> funnier response. Even in this forum, which is less hostile to > >>>>>>>>>> Buddhism, you find different views on it. > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees to > >>>>>>>>>> karma. The difference between the two is the former insists that > >>>>>>>>>> karma is your own business, nobody else can help you change it. > >>>>>>>>>> However, in Hinduism, there are powerful deities who respond to > >>>>>>>>>> your requests and assist you. Don't forget we are a zen forum, and > >>>>>>>>>> there are a view I term chaotic zen, which denies anything on > >>>>>>>>>> karma, or any laws or rules. They say everything is in chaos. On > >>>>>>>>>> the other hand, you will also hear all kinds of Buddhist views > >>>>>>>>>> here. I hope you have fun here. > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Anthony > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>> From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> > >>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > >>>>>>>>>> your friends & family react? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, just > >>>>>>>>>> recently starting reading up on it the past several months, > >>>>>>>>>> although technically I've been exposed to it for many years > >>>>>>>>>> through a variety of tv shows, movies, etc. My favorite was Kung > >>>>>>>>>> Fu: The Legend Continues. Don't know why, but the scenes with the > >>>>>>>>>> shoalin temple and buddhist monks were always my favorite. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Although I haven't come right out and said to my family (except > >>>>>>>>>> for my sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen the > >>>>>>>>>> books and notes I leave to myself pertaining to it. So far, it has > >>>>>>>>>> not been encouraging. They kind of give a disgusted look or a > >>>>>>>>>> groan when they see it that suggests that they are not happy about > >>>>>>>>>> it. They are catholics. I'm an atheist (which they've known for > >>>>>>>>>> years). When I finally told my sister that I'd like to visit a > >>>>>>>>>> temple in town, she got disqusted and said "why? You'll never go > >>>>>>>>>> with me to my church, but you'll go to a buddhist church?" I > >>>>>>>>>> didn't know what to say, so I told her the truth, that I didn't > >>>>>>>>>> feel anything for catholicism anymore, and that it didn't feel > >>>>>>>>>> like the right religion for me. She wasn't pleased. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at work. > >>>>>>>>>> I get along great with both of them, known them for several years. > >>>>>>>>>> My co-worker mentioned she and her husband were atheists, so I > >>>>>>>>>> told her I was too. We both got a kick out of it realizing that we > >>>>>>>>>> never knew that about each other. Then I mentioned to her that I > >>>>>>>>>> had been reading up on buddhism lately, and she gave the same kind > >>>>>>>>>> of groan I've been hearing from my family. My boss just sort of > >>>>>>>>>> gave a look of shock and disbelief, didn't say anything. I couple > >>>>>>>>>> of weeks or so before that, I was discussing various books with > >>>>>>>>>> another boss that we like to read, and I mentioned one I'd been > >>>>>>>>>> reading called the Peaceful Warrior. He asked what it was about so > >>>>>>>>>> I told him, and when I mentioned it has a buddhist theme to it, he > >>>>>>>>>> gave a funny look. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> What's funny about all of this is that I've always figured > >>>>>>>>>> buddhism to be one of the most revered and highly respected forms > >>>>>>>>>> of philosophy and religion on earth. Even growing up I felt that > >>>>>>>>>> way. When I go online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to ask a question > >>>>>>>>>> pertaining to it, I haven't had any bad replies over a single > >>>>>>>>>> question, and if any of you have ever been on there, you know they > >>>>>>>>>> can be harsh sometimes in that section. So it really threw me for > >>>>>>>>>> a loop seeing all these crazy reactions from people I know. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you knew > >>>>>>>>>> when you were first learning about buddhism? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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