send fail....... Actually if he is as good as you seem to think then he is trying to get his head around me. If so then I wish him well of it.
--- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@...> wrote: > > I think I must have scared him off. > I can be abrupt. > It's been twenty five years since I first entered the Dark Stone > Temple. > The rampant ignorance ruling this world terrifies me. > > --- In [email protected], ChrisAustinLane <chris@> wrote: > > > > This interchange is most amusing. > > > > I suspect the two senior practitioners are in violent agreement. > > > > Bill is no philosopher, tho he manifests a love of wisdom. > > > > Thanks, > > Chris Austin-Lane > > Sent from a cell phone > > > > On Jan 22, 2012, at 19:30, "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: > > > > > Rubbish! > > > The Abyss may be dark but it is hardly empty so do not speak to me of > > > what you do not know phillosopher. > > > Reality is entirely ordered to the unfettered mind. > > > Chaos is a failure to grasp reality. > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > >> > > >> Rewrisk, > > >> > > >> The abyss is the absence of rationality - chaos. And yes you must jump > > >> into it (the unknown and unknowable) to rid yourself of your attachments. > > >> > > >> But don't to it so as to know. The abyss does not contain knowledge or > > >> the access to knowledge or illumination of some kind. The abyss is > > >> completely dark and empty. > > >> > > >> ...Bill! > > >> > > >> --- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> No? > > >>> You are quite wrong. > > >>> They are all true! > > >>> > > >>> The abyss is real and you must 'jump' into it. > > >>> If you would know? > > >>> > > >>> --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> Anthony, > > >>>> > > >>>> Zen stories, perhaps even more than most, are symbolic - many are > > >>>> allegories and should not be taken literally. I say zen stories use > > >>>> this device more than most because much of what zen is about cannot be > > >>>> totally expressed with words - espcially written words. Face-to-face > > >>>> dialog is better, but as you know some zen masters tried to express > > >>>> and communicate their experience of Buddha Nature without words - with > > >>>> just sounds or even just actions. At least that's my opinion. > > >>>> > > >>>> The 'Jumping into the Abyss' phrase/allegory was taken from what > > >>>> you've called the physical world. When we stand at the edge of an > > >>>> abyss and contemplate jumping we will probably be terrified. It would > > >>>> take an act of either extreme desperation or faith to jump. > > >>>> > > >>>> That is the same kind of desparation or faith that is needed to sever > > >>>> all attachements to the illusion of 'self' and rationality and throw > > >>>> yourself into the 'abyss' - Buddha Nature. > > >>>> > > >>>> ...Bill! > > >>>> > > >>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Bill, > > >>>>> à > > >>>>> Quote:à in zen stories as 'leaping into the abyss' > > >>>>> à > > >>>>> Since the physical world is part of the reality, can you do that > > >>>>> physically? > > >>>>> à > > >>>>> Anthony > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> ________________________________ > > >>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > >>>>> To: [email protected] > > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 11 January 2012, 10:19 > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > >>>>> your friends & family react? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> à > > >>>>> Siska, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> The belief in cause-and-effect is an attempt by your discriminating > > >>>>> mind to 'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of experience which is > > >>>>> fundamentally chaotic. It is a process of breaking up wholistic > > >>>>> experience (Just THIS!) into pieces, and then to categorize and even > > >>>>> directly associating some pieces with others by assigning a dependent > > >>>>> cause-and-effect relationship to these pairs or sets of pieces. The > > >>>>> establishment of these cause-and-effect relationships are done to fit > > >>>>> your needs at the time. They are not absolute, objective or real. > > >>>>> They are relational, subjective and illusory - this is because they > > >>>>> are dependent upon your dualistic concept of self/other. The illusion > > >>>>> of cause-and-effect helps you feel more comfortable and gives you a > > >>>>> certain sense of control of life. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> The concept of karma is a spritualized version of cause-and-effect > > >>>>> which is usually thought of as purely a physical relationship. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in zen > > >>>>> stories as 'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step off the 100-ft > > >>>>> flagpole'. These are teachings telling you that you must let go of > > >>>>> your attachments (espcially to logic and the belief in > > >>>>> cause-and-effect), come out of your fantasy comfort zone, throw away > > >>>>> your illusory security blanket and throw yourself completly into the > > >>>>> stark unknown and unknowable. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. Just THIS! > > >>>>> > > >>>>> ...Bill! > > >>>>> > > >>>>> --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Hi Bill, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. > > >>>>>> Would you then say that cause and effect is illusory? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Siska > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>>> From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > >>>>>> Sender: [email protected] > > >>>>>> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 > > >>>>>> To: <[email protected]> > > >>>>>> Reply-To: [email protected] > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > >>>>>> your friends & family react? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Anthony, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than > > >>>>>> you'. When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are implying that > > >>>>>> karma exists independently of you; like when you say 'not my will > > >>>>>> but Yours (God's) be done' you are implying that God exists > > >>>>>> independently of you. You are implying that 'karma' and 'God' are > > >>>>>> 'outside agencies' - outside of and/or separate from you. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all their > > >>>>>> supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT separate > > >>>>>> from you. That are created by you - by your discriminating mind. > > >>>>>> They are illusory. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If you > > >>>>>> loot, there is looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The > > >>>>>> killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same > > >>>>>> action viewed or described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS! > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> This is my experience...Bill! > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Bill, > > >>>>>>> Ãâà > > >>>>>>> The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other > > >>>>>>> 'outside agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if you > > >>>>>>> deny karma, does that mean whatever you do, whether killing, > > >>>>>>> looting or burning, does not have any effects? You may say you rely > > >>>>>>> on law to take care of it. But that is part of karma, at the human > > >>>>>>> level. Nevertheless, it is more realistic than reliance on God. if > > >>>>>>> all are illusory, killing and looting will be out of control. In > > >>>>>>> that case, believing in God is better than believing in nothing. > > >>>>>>> Ãâà > > >>>>>>> Anthony > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> ________________________________ > > >>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > >>>>>>> To: [email protected] > > >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > >>>>>>> your friends & family react? > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Ãâà > > >>>>>>> Anthony, > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> How are they different concepts? > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and both > > >>>>>>> exist as a concept in your mind. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad > > >>>>>>> (good deeds lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or > > >>>>>>> accumulation of [bad] karma leads to being re-born as a toad) is > > >>>>>>> just packaging. Likewise attributng the enforcement of > > >>>>>>> actions/reactions or cause/effect to an outside agency such as > > >>>>>>> karma or God is also just packaging. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> ...Bill! > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Bill, > > >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > >>>>>>>> It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. > > >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > >>>>>>>> Anthony > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> ________________________________ > > >>>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 > > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > >>>>>>>> your friends & family react? > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > >>>>>>>> Anthony, > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not think > > >>>>>>>> that definition could not also be applied to the Christian concept > > >>>>>>>> of sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> For me it's the same message in a different envelope. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> ...Bill! > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is > > >>>>>>>>> action and reaction by yourself through your own mind (or Buddha > > >>>>>>>>> nature). > > >>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > >>>>>>>>> Anthony > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > > >>>>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > >>>>>>>>> did your friends & family react? > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > >>>>>>>>> Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you go to > > >>>>>>>>> Heaven and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> ItÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > >>>>>>>>>> is not at all surprising that you got a funny reaction from > > >>>>>>>>>> people surrounding you when you said you were interested in > > >>>>>>>>>> Buddhism. Try doing the same thing with Moslems, and you get a > > >>>>>>>>>> funnier response. Even in this forum, which is less hostile to > > >>>>>>>>>> Buddhism, you find different views on it. > > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees to > > >>>>>>>>>> karma. The difference between the two is the former insists that > > >>>>>>>>>> karma is your own business, nobody else can help you change it. > > >>>>>>>>>> However, in Hinduism, there are powerful deities who respond to > > >>>>>>>>>> your requests and assist you. Don't forget we are a zen forum, > > >>>>>>>>>> and there are a view I term chaotic zen, which denies anything > > >>>>>>>>>> on karma, or any laws or rules. They say everything is in chaos. > > >>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, you will also hear all kinds of Buddhist > > >>>>>>>>>> views here. I hope you have fun here. > > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Anthony > > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ > > >>>>>>>>>> From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> > > >>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > > >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 > > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > >>>>>>>>>> your friends & family react? > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, just > > >>>>>>>>>> recently starting reading up on it the past several months, > > >>>>>>>>>> although technically I've been exposed to it for many years > > >>>>>>>>>> through a variety of tv shows, movies, etc. My favorite was Kung > > >>>>>>>>>> Fu: The Legend Continues. Don't know why, but the scenes with > > >>>>>>>>>> the shoalin temple and buddhist monks were always my favorite. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Although I haven't come right out and said to my family (except > > >>>>>>>>>> for my sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen > > >>>>>>>>>> the books and notes I leave to myself pertaining to it. So far, > > >>>>>>>>>> it has not been encouraging. They kind of give a disgusted look > > >>>>>>>>>> or a groan when they see it that suggests that they are not > > >>>>>>>>>> happy about it. They are catholics. I'm an atheist (which > > >>>>>>>>>> they've known for years). When I finally told my sister that I'd > > >>>>>>>>>> like to visit a temple in town, she got disqusted and said "why? > > >>>>>>>>>> You'll never go with me to my church, but you'll go to a > > >>>>>>>>>> buddhist church?" I didn't know what to say, so I told her the > > >>>>>>>>>> truth, that I didn't feel anything for catholicism anymore, and > > >>>>>>>>>> that it didn't feel like the right religion for me. She wasn't > > >>>>>>>>>> pleased. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at > > >>>>>>>>>> work. I get along great with both of them, known them for > > >>>>>>>>>> several years. My co-worker mentioned she and her husband were > > >>>>>>>>>> atheists, so I told her I was too. We both got a kick out of it > > >>>>>>>>>> realizing that we never knew that about each other. Then I > > >>>>>>>>>> mentioned to her that I had been reading up on buddhism lately, > > >>>>>>>>>> and she gave the same kind of groan I've been hearing from my > > >>>>>>>>>> family. My boss just sort of gave a look of shock and disbelief, > > >>>>>>>>>> didn't say anything. I couple of weeks or so before that, I was > > >>>>>>>>>> discussing various books with another boss that we like to read, > > >>>>>>>>>> and I mentioned one I'd been reading called the Peaceful > > >>>>>>>>>> Warrior. He asked what it was about so I told him, and when I > > >>>>>>>>>> mentioned it has a buddhist theme to it, he gave a funny look. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> What's funny about all of this is that I've always figured > > >>>>>>>>>> buddhism to be one of the most revered and highly respected > > >>>>>>>>>> forms of philosophy and religion on earth. Even growing up I > > >>>>>>>>>> felt that way. When I go online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to > > >>>>>>>>>> ask a question pertaining to it, I haven't had any bad replies > > >>>>>>>>>> over a single question, and if any of you have ever been on > > >>>>>>>>>> there, you know they can be harsh sometimes in that section. So > > >>>>>>>>>> it really threw me for a loop seeing all these crazy reactions > > >>>>>>>>>> from people I know. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you knew > > >>>>>>>>>> when you were first learning about buddhism? > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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