This interchange is most amusing. I suspect the two senior practitioners are in violent agreement.
Bill is no philosopher, tho he manifests a love of wisdom. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Jan 22, 2012, at 19:30, "rewrisk" <[email protected]> wrote: > Rubbish! > The Abyss may be dark but it is hardly empty so do not speak to me of what > you do not know phillosopher. > Reality is entirely ordered to the unfettered mind. > Chaos is a failure to grasp reality. > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: >> >> Rewrisk, >> >> The abyss is the absence of rationality - chaos. And yes you must jump into >> it (the unknown and unknowable) to rid yourself of your attachments. >> >> But don't to it so as to know. The abyss does not contain knowledge or the >> access to knowledge or illumination of some kind. The abyss is completely >> dark and empty. >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In [email protected], "rewrisk" <rewrisk@> wrote: >>> >>> No? >>> You are quite wrong. >>> They are all true! >>> >>> The abyss is real and you must 'jump' into it. >>> If you would know? >>> >>> --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: >>>> >>>> Anthony, >>>> >>>> Zen stories, perhaps even more than most, are symbolic - many are >>>> allegories and should not be taken literally. I say zen stories use this >>>> device more than most because much of what zen is about cannot be totally >>>> expressed with words - espcially written words. Face-to-face dialog is >>>> better, but as you know some zen masters tried to express and communicate >>>> their experience of Buddha Nature without words - with just sounds or even >>>> just actions. At least that's my opinion. >>>> >>>> The 'Jumping into the Abyss' phrase/allegory was taken from what you've >>>> called the physical world. When we stand at the edge of an abyss and >>>> contemplate jumping we will probably be terrified. It would take an act >>>> of either extreme desperation or faith to jump. >>>> >>>> That is the same kind of desparation or faith that is needed to sever all >>>> attachements to the illusion of 'self' and rationality and throw yourself >>>> into the 'abyss' - Buddha Nature. >>>> >>>> ...Bill! >>>> >>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Bill, >>>>>  >>>>> Quote: in zen stories as 'leaping into the abyss' >>>>>  >>>>> Since the physical world is part of the reality, can you do that >>>>> physically? >>>>>  >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 11 January 2012, 10:19 >>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>>>> friends & family react? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Siska, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory. >>>>> >>>>> The belief in cause-and-effect is an attempt by your discriminating mind >>>>> to 'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of experience which is >>>>> fundamentally chaotic. It is a process of breaking up wholistic >>>>> experience (Just THIS!) into pieces, and then to categorize and even >>>>> directly associating some pieces with others by assigning a dependent >>>>> cause-and-effect relationship to these pairs or sets of pieces. The >>>>> establishment of these cause-and-effect relationships are done to fit >>>>> your needs at the time. They are not absolute, objective or real. They >>>>> are relational, subjective and illusory - this is because they are >>>>> dependent upon your dualistic concept of self/other. The illusion of >>>>> cause-and-effect helps you feel more comfortable and gives you a certain >>>>> sense of control of life. >>>>> >>>>> The concept of karma is a spritualized version of cause-and-effect which >>>>> is usually thought of as purely a physical relationship. >>>>> >>>>> The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in zen stories >>>>> as 'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step off the 100-ft flagpole'. >>>>> These are teachings telling you that you must let go of your attachments >>>>> (espcially to logic and the belief in cause-and-effect), come out of your >>>>> fantasy comfort zone, throw away your illusory security blanket and throw >>>>> yourself completly into the stark unknown and unknowable. >>>>> >>>>> There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. Just THIS! >>>>> >>>>> ...Bill! >>>>> >>>>> --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Bill, >>>>>> >>>>>>> The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. >>>>>> Would you then say that cause and effect is illusory? >>>>>> >>>>>> Siska >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> >>>>>> Sender: [email protected] >>>>>> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 >>>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>>> Reply-To: [email protected] >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>>>>> friends & family react? >>>>>> >>>>>> Anthony, >>>>>> >>>>>> When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than >>>>>> you'. When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are implying that >>>>>> karma exists independently of you; like when you say 'not my will but >>>>>> Yours (God's) be done' you are implying that God exists independently of >>>>>> you. You are implying that 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' - >>>>>> outside of and/or separate from you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all their >>>>>> supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT separate >>>>>> from you. That are created by you - by your discriminating mind. They >>>>>> are illusory. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If you loot, >>>>>> there is looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The killing is >>>>>> not the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same action viewed or >>>>>> described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS! >>>>>> >>>>>> This is my experience...Bill! >>>>>> >>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bill, >>>>>>>  >>>>>>> The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other 'outside >>>>>>> agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if you deny karma, >>>>>>> does that mean whatever you do, whether killing, looting or burning, >>>>>>> does not have any effects? You may say you rely on law to take care of >>>>>>> it. But that is part of karma, at the human level. Nevertheless, it is >>>>>>> more realistic than reliance on God. if all are illusory, killing and >>>>>>> looting will be out of control. In that case, believing in God is >>>>>>> better than believing in nothing. >>>>>>>  >>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>>>>>> friends & family react? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  >>>>>>> Anthony, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How are they different concepts? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and both exist >>>>>>> as a concept in your mind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad (good >>>>>>> deeds lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or accumulation of >>>>>>> [bad] karma leads to being re-born as a toad) is just packaging. >>>>>>> Likewise attributng the enforcement of actions/reactions or >>>>>>> cause/effect to an outside agency such as karma or God is also just >>>>>>> packaging. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...Bill! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bill, >>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. >>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did >>>>>>>> your friends & family react? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>  >>>>>>>> Anthony, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not think that >>>>>>>> definition could not also be applied to the Christian concept of >>>>>>>> sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For me it's the same message in a different envelope. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ...Bill! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is action >>>>>>>>> and reaction by yourself through your own mind (or Buddha nature). >>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did >>>>>>>>> your friends & family react? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>>>> Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you go to Heaven >>>>>>>>> and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ItÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ is not at all surprising >>>>>>>>>> that you got a funny reaction from people surrounding you when you >>>>>>>>>> said you were interested in Buddhism. Try doing the same thing with >>>>>>>>>> Moslems, and you get a funnier response. Even in this forum, which >>>>>>>>>> is less hostile to Buddhism, you find different views on it. >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>>>>> The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees to >>>>>>>>>> karma. The difference between the two is the former insists that >>>>>>>>>> karma is your own business, nobody else can help you change it. >>>>>>>>>> However, in Hinduism, there are powerful deities who respond to your >>>>>>>>>> requests and assist you. Don't forget we are a zen forum, and there >>>>>>>>>> are a view I term chaotic zen, which denies anything on karma, or >>>>>>>>>> any laws or rules. They say everything is in chaos. On the other >>>>>>>>>> hand, you will also hear all kinds of Buddhist views here. I hope >>>>>>>>>> you have fun here. >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> >>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>>>>>>>>> friends & family react? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>>>>> I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, just >>>>>>>>>> recently starting reading up on it the past several months, although >>>>>>>>>> technically I've been exposed to it for many years through a variety >>>>>>>>>> of tv shows, movies, etc. My favorite was Kung Fu: The Legend >>>>>>>>>> Continues. Don't know why, but the scenes with the shoalin temple >>>>>>>>>> and buddhist monks were always my favorite. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Although I haven't come right out and said to my family (except for >>>>>>>>>> my sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen the books >>>>>>>>>> and notes I leave to myself pertaining to it. So far, it has not >>>>>>>>>> been encouraging. They kind of give a disgusted look or a groan when >>>>>>>>>> they see it that suggests that they are not happy about it. They are >>>>>>>>>> catholics. I'm an atheist (which they've known for years). When I >>>>>>>>>> finally told my sister that I'd like to visit a temple in town, she >>>>>>>>>> got disqusted and said "why? You'll never go with me to my church, >>>>>>>>>> but you'll go to a buddhist church?" I didn't know what to say, so I >>>>>>>>>> told her the truth, that I didn't feel anything for catholicism >>>>>>>>>> anymore, and that it didn't feel like the right religion for me. She >>>>>>>>>> wasn't pleased. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at work. I >>>>>>>>>> get along great with both of them, known them for several years. My >>>>>>>>>> co-worker mentioned she and her husband were atheists, so I told her >>>>>>>>>> I was too. We both got a kick out of it realizing that we never knew >>>>>>>>>> that about each other. Then I mentioned to her that I had been >>>>>>>>>> reading up on buddhism lately, and she gave the same kind of groan >>>>>>>>>> I've been hearing from my family. My boss just sort of gave a look >>>>>>>>>> of shock and disbelief, didn't say anything. I couple of weeks or so >>>>>>>>>> before that, I was discussing various books with another boss that >>>>>>>>>> we like to read, and I mentioned one I'd been reading called the >>>>>>>>>> Peaceful Warrior. He asked what it was about so I told him, and when >>>>>>>>>> I mentioned it has a buddhist theme to it, he gave a funny look. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What's funny about all of this is that I've always figured buddhism >>>>>>>>>> to be one of the most revered and highly respected forms of >>>>>>>>>> philosophy and religion on earth. Even growing up I felt that way. >>>>>>>>>> When I go online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to ask a question >>>>>>>>>> pertaining to it, I haven't had any bad replies over a single >>>>>>>>>> question, and if any of you have ever been on there, you know they >>>>>>>>>> can be harsh sometimes in that section. So it really threw me for a >>>>>>>>>> loop seeing all these crazy reactions from people I know. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you knew >>>>>>>>>> when you were first learning about buddhism? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
