Bassho's poem in Japanese is Furu ike ya Kawazu tobikomo Mizu no oto
which is literally pretty close to Ancient pond here Frog jumps in Sound of water If you want 5-7-5 close to orginal An ancient pond here Then a frog jumps into it The sound of water Edgar On Jun 8, 2012, at 10:02 PM, Bill! wrote: > Mike and Joe, > > I agree with Joe that Haikus written in English should comply with the > historical 5-7-5 format. If they don't, then why call them Haikus? Of course > the one other 'requirement' or characteristic is that the haiku is written to > communicate sensual impressions only without subject/object or valuations. > This is meant to emulate or communicate the non-dualistic state of Buddha > Mind. > > I also agree with Mike that translations shouldn't have to force the poem > into a 5-7-5. The example given of Bassho's Frog/Pond haiku is a good > example. The last line is translated as 'Plop'. Bassho's haiku had to have > used 5 syllables for that and not just 'plop'. In fact Bassho's actual poem's > last line is more literally translated as 'makes loud water sound' or > something like that. That's more literal but less poetic in English and I > approve of Ginsburg's translation. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote: > > > > Howdy, Mike, > > > > Well, the art-form has a "form" to it, and I suppose if we write from > > scratch in English -- our own poem -- it can be good to honor the form and > > be guided as well as constrained by it. > > > > But for translations, some translators stick to the form, while others > > don't feel compelled to do so. I think there's a bit of vanity shown by a > > translator who casts someone else's poem in that form, when I think the > > form does not help a translation much. I think it's enough for a reader to > > read the translation to understand the words, and then to read the Japanese > > again and again, for the sound and the music. > > > > By the way, Aitken Roshi's first published book (essentially his Master's > > thesis done at University of Hawai'i in 1950), is great on this score. The > > original is given; his translations are literal and word-for-word; and his > > own more idiomatic English translations follow. I don't believe he adheres > > to the numerical syllable count form. The books is BASHO'S HAIKU AND ZEN. A > > great book, for the poetry, for insight on Bassho's life and practice, and > > for practical insights on zen practice, by a master (recently deceased). > > > > I think the American lyric poet Allen Ginsburg translated Bassho's most > > famous poem without regard to syllable-count in the translation, "Old Pond": > > > > Old pond; > > frog jumps in. > > Plop! > > > > (I count just six syllables in all). > > > > But don't miss the original! Maybe see Robert Aitken's book for that, if > > you have it. > > > > --Joe > > > > > mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > Yes, you're quite correct - Haiku doesn't have to strictly follow the > > > 5-7-5 rule to be regarded as haiku anymore. > > > >
