Or I like this version better....
An ancient pond here ... Suddenly a frog jumps in The sound of water ... Edgar On Jun 9, 2012, at 8:06 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: > Bassho's poem in Japanese is > > Furu ike ya > Kawazu tobikomo > Mizu no oto > > which is literally pretty close to > > Ancient pond here > Frog jumps in > Sound of water > > If you want 5-7-5 close to orginal > > An ancient pond here.. > Then a frog jumps into it > The sound of water.. > > > Edgar > > > > On Jun 8, 2012, at 10:02 PM, Bill! wrote: > >> Mike and Joe, >> >> I agree with Joe that Haikus written in English should comply with the >> historical 5-7-5 format. If they don't, then why call them Haikus? Of course >> the one other 'requirement' or characteristic is that the haiku is written >> to communicate sensual impressions only without subject/object or >> valuations. This is meant to emulate or communicate the non-dualistic state >> of Buddha Mind. >> >> I also agree with Mike that translations shouldn't have to force the poem >> into a 5-7-5. The example given of Bassho's Frog/Pond haiku is a good >> example. The last line is translated as 'Plop'. Bassho's haiku had to have >> used 5 syllables for that and not just 'plop'. In fact Bassho's actual >> poem's last line is more literally translated as 'makes loud water sound' or >> something like that. That's more literal but less poetic in English and I >> approve of Ginsburg's translation. >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote: >> > >> > Howdy, Mike, >> > >> > Well, the art-form has a "form" to it, and I suppose if we write from >> > scratch in English -- our own poem -- it can be good to honor the form and >> > be guided as well as constrained by it. >> > >> > But for translations, some translators stick to the form, while others >> > don't feel compelled to do so. I think there's a bit of vanity shown by a >> > translator who casts someone else's poem in that form, when I think the >> > form does not help a translation much. I think it's enough for a reader to >> > read the translation to understand the words, and then to read the >> > Japanese again and again, for the sound and the music. >> > >> > By the way, Aitken Roshi's first published book (essentially his Master's >> > thesis done at University of Hawai'i in 1950), is great on this score. The >> > original is given; his translations are literal and word-for-word; and his >> > own more idiomatic English translations follow. I don't believe he adheres >> > to the numerical syllable count form. The books is BASHO'S HAIKU AND ZEN. >> > A great book, for the poetry, for insight on Bassho's life and practice, >> > and for practical insights on zen practice, by a master (recently >> > deceased). >> > >> > I think the American lyric poet Allen Ginsburg translated Bassho's most >> > famous poem without regard to syllable-count in the translation, "Old >> > Pond": >> > >> > Old pond; >> > frog jumps in. >> > Plop! >> > >> > (I count just six syllables in all). >> > >> > But don't miss the original! Maybe see Robert Aitken's book for that, if >> > you have it. >> > >> > --Joe >> > >> > > mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: >> > >> > > Yes, you're quite correct - Haiku doesn't have to strictly follow the >> > > 5-7-5 rule to be regarded as haiku anymore. >> > >> >> >
