Edgar, We definitely disagree on this fundamental issue.
Reality does NOT have any 'intrinsic logic'. Reality is what I'd call chaos or at least not bound by human logic. Buddha Nature is not 'understanding correctly'. Buddha Nature is pure, unadulterated, direct, raw sensory experience. It's late here and I'm going to sign off now but I'll pick up any other posts you leave in the morning (my morning)... Thanks for the discussion...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill! > > The world of forms has its own intrinsic logic which humans and other > organisms model in their minds. You are only able to function in the world > which you do quite well because your mind's structures are accurate models of > the actual logic of reality. Why do you deny your own reality? > > If that were not so you could not function and would quickly die. If the > world of forms was not a logical structure it would quickly crumble and cease > to exist.... > > This understanding is clear and fundamental and essential to Zen... > > Zen is not denying the world of forms and their intrinsic logic, it is > understanding it correctly as a manifestation of Buddha nature... > > Edgar > > > > On Aug 30, 2012, at 9:19 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > Logic and rationality are human inventions - illusions. Any 'laws' > > (structure) that you think you see in nature are not discoveries, they are > > illusory structures you first create and then superimpose upon it. > > > > It's like laying on your back and looking up at the clouds and seeing > > camels and dogs, and maybe even Jesus. All these structures you think you > > see are the creations of your discriminating, dualistic mind. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > This is completely backwards of course! it is reality that is always > > > logical in the sense that it always follows its own intrinsic rules. It > > > is only humans that can behave irrationally as when they make statements > > > like Bill's below! > > > :-) > > > > > > Zen is understanding the true logic (nature) of reality, not denying it > > > exists.... > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 29, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Kris, > > > > > > > > Much of zen appears to be nonsense because it is nonsense in that it is > > > > illogical and irrational. That's because reality is illogical and > > > > irrational. That's because logic and rationality are a human invention > > > > - concepts, and all concepts are illusory. They might be useful and > > > > make us feel secure and in control, but they are illusory. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Kristopher Grey <kris@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Much of 'Zen' appears as nonsense. Doesn't mean it is, or isn't. > > > > > > > > > > So long as you assume a belief that I believe anything (or that > > > > > anyone > > > > > needs to), nothing I can say will appear otherwise to you. > > > > > > > > > > Believe, or not. 'Mountain, no mountain...' has nothing to do with > > > > > '... > > > > > mountain.' > > > > > > > > > > KG > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 8/29/2012 6:45 PM, Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Kristopher, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The notion that there is no such thing as truth which you seem to > > > > > > be > > > > > > asserting is nonsense and certainly not Zen. Correct me if I'm > > > > > > wrong > > > > > > about what you believe... > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 29, 2012, at 5:32 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> It is clear you know a great deal about this. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Is your mind to full to take my meaning, and so instead keep > > > > > >> offering > > > > > >> your own? I am not talking about what this is or isn't - I'm only > > > > > >> pointing to the erroneous presumption inherent in thinking/calling > > > > > >> it > > > > > >> anything. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> KG > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On 8/29/2012 3:38 PM, Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Kristopher, > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> There is a big difference between redefining words and actually > > > > > >>> believing big snakes fly through the sky or that Thor brings the > > > > > >>> rain rather than natural processes. That should be clear to > > > > > >>> everyone... Believing otherwise is delusion, not Zen... > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Edgar > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> On Aug 29, 2012, at 1:03 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> If people, instead of calling them 'clouds' called them 'rainbow > > > > > >>>> serpents', there would be rainbow serpents in a cloudless sky. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Believe what you will. It is not necessary to convince others > > > > > >>>> that > > > > > >>>> your dreams are real to you. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> KG > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> On 8/29/2012 7:42 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Kristopher, > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> No, that's a misunderstanding. There is a distinction between > > > > > >>>>> true > > > > > >>>>> and false beliefs. True beliefs are consistent with the > > > > > >>>>> intrinsic > > > > > >>>>> logic of reality, false beliefs are not... > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> There are no rainbow serpents flying through the air. There are > > > > > >>>>> clouds up there though... > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Edgar > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> On Aug 28, 2012, at 11:56 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote: > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > On 8/28/2012 8:35 PM, Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > >>>>> >> Sure there are plenty of nature spirit religions. They are > > > > > >>>>> >> ALL > > > > > >>>>> >> delusions... > > > > > >>>>> >> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > As is your surety. > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > KG > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > ------------------------------------ > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have > > > > > >>>>> read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
