Bill! That is partially correct. Reality at its most fundamental level consists of what you call Buddha Nature which is intrinsically formless; however Buddha Nature is such that forms naturally arise within it and those forms have a logical structure (they have to have because after all a form IS a logical structure).
Your error, if I may suggest so, is not realizing that the forms are PART OF Buddha nature. The world of forms and its logical structure is a MANIFESTATION of Buddha Nature, not some imagination of your mind.... You correctly understand that the world of forms can be/is often misinterpreted by mind, but in itself it actually does follow the logical computational rules like the software with which you are so familiar does. Otherwise it could not exist and it clearly does exist. Thus realization is NOT denying that the form world and its rules exist, it clearly does, but realizing and experiencing the form world as a MANIFESTATION of Buddha nature. Realization is seeing Buddha nature THROUGH/IN the world of forms, not trying to escape the world of forms which is simply impossible anyway. Until this is understood there is no true Zen... Maya distorts reality, but reality can only be seen THROUGH maya as the true nature that resides beyond it and manifests it. However I doubt this will ever sink in since you simply ignore most of the points I'm actually making... Edgar On Aug 31, 2012, at 5:08 AM, Bill! wrote: > Joe, Edgar, Kris, et al... > > I do want to correct one thing I said below. I said reality (Buddha > Nature/zen) is "illogical and irrational". That is incorrect. Saying that > would mean it is NOT logical and NOT rational. What I meant to say is reality > (Buddha Nature/zen) is a-logical and a-rational. That means it is not > contained within or bounded by logic or rationality. It cannot be said to be > subject to or defined by logic or rationality. > > This might not make any difference to you but I wanted to make sure I was as > clear as I could be on this very difficult subject. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote: > > > > Bill!, > > > > In all seriousness... I don't know if reality is logical, and rational. I > > just don't know! It is a challenge in all ways. > > > > Certainly, since the Quantum Theory of Atoms was established in the 1920s, > > we've known that -- although things may be rational (to computation, even > > through the 16th decimal point) -- they surely don't make much SENSE!... to > > our macroscopically-conditioned "understanding" (experience). > > > > I speak as a working astrophysicist. > > > > Pretty disheartening, this picture. > > > > On the other hand, fun! > > > > Showing the limits of our comprehension, based on macroscopic models. > > > > I think it takes at least 15 years to make a Quantum-Mechanic (all that > > grease, gasoline, and Diesel, you know). > > > > --Joe > > > > PS Don't get me wrong; I'm not one to extend or extrapolate much from > > formal Science to the realms of spiritual understanding, practice, or > > development. SCIENCE is just another Poetry, there. Good enough for... > > something! But *absolutely* not needed, and usually not at all helpful, > > except by the most skilful presenter, most practiced with metaphors. > > > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > Kris, > > > > > > Much of zen appears to be nonsense because it is nonsense in that it is > > > illogical and irrational. That's because reality is illogical and > > > irrational. That's because logic and rationality are a human invention - > > > concepts, and all concepts are illusory. > > > >
