Edgar,
I do not ignore the points you make. I just usually disagree, or perhaps as
you suggested in an early post I don't understand what you are saying - that is
what you are saying means something different to me than you intend to convey.
In the post below however I think you've come as close as I've seen to
describing what you believe in a manner that is similar to mine.
I do disagree with most of the early parts of your post below, but when you say
"Realization is seeing Buddha nature THROUGH/IN the world of forms, not trying
to escape the world of forms which is simply impossible anyway" it comes close.
My practice is something close to what you suggest "...seeing Buddha nature
THROUGH/IN the world of forms...". I do not try to 'escape the world of forms'
however. I realize that world is illusory and of my own discriminating mind's
invention.
Also close is your statement "Until this is understood there is no true
Zen...", although I would have to substitute the word 'understood' with 'put
into practice' or just 'done'. Again, I don't think understanding has anything
to do with it. One reason I believe this by the way is that the
'understanding' requirement would imply that it takes at least some level of
intelligence to manifest Buddha Nature and I absolutely believe that
implication to be false.
One last statement "Maya distorts reality, but reality can only be seen THROUGH
maya as the true nature that resides beyond it and manifests it" is again close
to my beliefs, but not as close as those I've listed above. I'd restate this
one to be 'Maya (illusions/forms) may be a distorted view of reality or may
have no basis in reality at all. Reality can be experienced directly with
absolutely no trace of illusion (Maya). In Japanese Zen Buddhism this is
called 'kensho' and 'satori'. A distorted view of reality (Maya/illusion)can
be maintained in the presence and awareness of Buddha Nature by not forming
attachments to Maya.
That's about as close as I think we're going to come right now. It's nighttime
here again and I'm going to sign off. I'll read any comments you make in my
morning.
...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Bill!
>
> That is partially correct. Reality at its most fundamental level consists of
> what you call Buddha Nature which is intrinsically formless; however Buddha
> Nature is such that forms naturally arise within it and those forms have a
> logical structure (they have to have because after all a form IS a logical
> structure).
>
> Your error, if I may suggest so, is not realizing that the forms are PART OF
> Buddha nature. The world of forms and its logical structure is a
> MANIFESTATION of Buddha Nature, not some imagination of your mind.... You
> correctly understand that the world of forms can be/is often misinterpreted
> by mind, but in itself it actually does follow the logical computational
> rules like the software with which you are so familiar does. Otherwise it
> could not exist and it clearly does exist.
>
> Thus realization is NOT denying that the form world and its rules exist, it
> clearly does, but realizing and experiencing the form world as a
> MANIFESTATION of Buddha nature. Realization is seeing Buddha nature
> THROUGH/IN the world of forms, not trying to escape the world of forms which
> is simply impossible anyway. Until this is understood there is no true Zen...
>
> Maya distorts reality, but reality can only be seen THROUGH maya as the true
> nature that resides beyond it and manifests it.
>
>
> However I doubt this will ever sink in since you simply ignore most of the
> points I'm actually making...
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Aug 31, 2012, at 5:08 AM, Bill! wrote:
>
> > Joe, Edgar, Kris, et al...
> >
> > I do want to correct one thing I said below. I said reality (Buddha
> > Nature/zen) is "illogical and irrational". That is incorrect. Saying that
> > would mean it is NOT logical and NOT rational. What I meant to say is
> > reality (Buddha Nature/zen) is a-logical and a-rational. That means it is
> > not contained within or bounded by logic or rationality. It cannot be said
> > to be subject to or defined by logic or rationality.
> >
> > This might not make any difference to you but I wanted to make sure I was
> > as clear as I could be on this very difficult subject.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill!,
> > >
> > > In all seriousness... I don't know if reality is logical, and rational. I
> > > just don't know! It is a challenge in all ways.
> > >
> > > Certainly, since the Quantum Theory of Atoms was established in the
> > > 1920s, we've known that -- although things may be rational (to
> > > computation, even through the 16th decimal point) -- they surely don't
> > > make much SENSE!... to our macroscopically-conditioned "understanding"
> > > (experience).
> > >
> > > I speak as a working astrophysicist.
> > >
> > > Pretty disheartening, this picture.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, fun!
> > >
> > > Showing the limits of our comprehension, based on macroscopic models.
> > >
> > > I think it takes at least 15 years to make a Quantum-Mechanic (all that
> > > grease, gasoline, and Diesel, you know).
> > >
> > > --Joe
> > >
> > > PS Don't get me wrong; I'm not one to extend or extrapolate much from
> > > formal Science to the realms of spiritual understanding, practice, or
> > > development. SCIENCE is just another Poetry, there. Good enough for...
> > > something! But *absolutely* not needed, and usually not at all helpful,
> > > except by the most skilful presenter, most practiced with metaphors.
> > >
> > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Kris,
> > > >
> > > > Much of zen appears to be nonsense because it is nonsense in that it is
> > > > illogical and irrational. That's because reality is illogical and
> > > > irrational. That's because logic and rationality are a human invention
> > > > - concepts, and all concepts are illusory.
> > >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
