Yes Bill!, just as calling this 'illusion' offers you some sense of
comfort and control.
'Real' and 'unreal' are potentialities. 'Real' as concepts, 'unreal'
when they remain unconvinced ('Births' and 'deaths').
'Real" and 'unreal' is a rationalized way of saying potentially
conceptually or materially 'useful' and 'not useful' - to the idea of
'me' (The Three Poisons). Whatever the form, the distinctions serve
'self' all the same. Thus the illusion of 'unreal' appearing potentially
useful!
'Buddha mind' or 'Original mind' = Potentiality (pure, raw, natural,
unsaid, un-conceieved, formless, empty, etc...).
'Ordinary mind' = Conceptions of potentiality (themselves apparent
aspects/forms of potential. 'Realized' potential).
Potential realized/Realized potential (form is emptiness/emptiness is form).
There's only potentiality, appearing ('real'-ized) as all we
perceive/conceive, whether we realize this or not. Experiencing =
Realization. Ordinary mind is Buddha Mind.
Can't be simpler.
Irrational? Perhaps. Rationality is a subset, not the sum, of reason.
KG
On 8/29/2012 11:13 PM, Bill! wrote:
Kris,
Much of zen appears to be nonsense because it is nonsense in that it
is illogical and irrational. That's because reality is illogical and
irrational. That's because logic and rationality are a human invention
- concepts, and all concepts are illusory. They might be useful and
make us feel secure and in control, but they are illusory.
...Bill!
--- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
Kristopher Grey <kris@...> wrote:
>
> Much of 'Zen' appears as nonsense. Doesn't mean it is, or isn't.
>
> So long as you assume a belief that I believe anything (or that anyone
> needs to), nothing I can say will appear otherwise to you.
>
> Believe, or not. 'Mountain, no mountain...' has nothing to do with '...
> mountain.'
>
> KG
>
>
> On 8/29/2012 6:45 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> >
> > Kristopher,
> >
> >
> > The notion that there is no such thing as truth which you seem to be
> > asserting is nonsense and certainly not Zen. Correct me if I'm wrong
> > about what you believe...
> >
> > Edgar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 29, 2012, at 5:32 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> It is clear you know a great deal about this.
> >>
> >> Is your mind to full to take my meaning, and so instead keep
offering
> >> your own? I am not talking about what this is or isn't - I'm only
> >> pointing to the erroneous presumption inherent in
thinking/calling it
> >> anything.
> >>
> >> KG
> >>
> >> On 8/29/2012 3:38 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Kristopher,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> There is a big difference between redefining words and actually
> >>> believing big snakes fly through the sky or that Thor brings the
> >>> rain rather than natural processes. That should be clear to
> >>> everyone... Believing otherwise is delusion, not Zen...
> >>>
> >>> Edgar
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Aug 29, 2012, at 1:03 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> If people, instead of calling them 'clouds' called them 'rainbow
> >>>> serpents', there would be rainbow serpents in a cloudless sky.
> >>>>
> >>>> Believe what you will. It is not necessary to convince others that
> >>>> your dreams are real to you.
> >>>>
> >>>> KG
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 8/29/2012 7:42 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Kristopher,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No, that's a misunderstanding. There is a distinction between
true
> >>>>> and false beliefs. True beliefs are consistent with the intrinsic
> >>>>> logic of reality, false beliefs are not...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There are no rainbow serpents flying through the air. There are
> >>>>> clouds up there though...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Edgar
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Aug 28, 2012, at 11:56 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > On 8/28/2012 8:35 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> >>>>> >> Sure there are plenty of nature spirit religions. They are ALL
> >>>>> >> delusions...
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > As is your surety.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > KG
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > ------------------------------------
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have
> >>>>> read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
