Dear Bill Well, we are back to faith and belief not necessarily having much correlation . . . all beings can exhibit faith, even atheists have faith. And of course atheists have beliefs, but these two things are entirely separate.
Perhaps this helps Faith is in the realm of intuition, perhaps more holistic -- body, mind, emotions that translates into a sense of well-being or looking forward Belief is largely learned, conditioned, reactive, and tries to present concepts, ideas, morals, histories, etc . . . which might give a person faith to some extent, but is only experiential in terms of dogma, cult, creed. The Sufis spend a great deal of time on these distinctions, as do some Zen Buddhists Masters, but the Sufis, being largely under the influence and experience of Shariah have really examined just what the nature of belief and faith represent. When you have to deal with omnipresent legalism, examining what people believe and how they operate become, shall we say sciences. In fact, Sufi scholars or teachers, etc refer to these conditions as 'sciences'. True enough, Sufism presents a methodology of exercises to dispense with beliefs, to go beyond them, but never outside the realm of shall we say pure faith. In fact, that is seen as annhiliation in -- 'the one'. A complete submersion in reality. Ana al Haqq (the real). Faith is part of this, beliefs are not. Beliefs are often a necessary raft to get to the shore, for most are lacking in abilities. Of course, Zen (zen) is a particular case . . . Zen deals with this in a more direct manner, not having the trappings of monotheism and sacred law. Of course it has its own cultural clap-trap as well, as we can see from various posts here and elsewhere. Everyone has a particular Zen. And of course this particular Zen is often more along the lines of belief than faith == experience. To the Sufi, or Christian mystic for that matter, there is no thing that can be held in the mind to approximate God. We are fumbling in the dark. There can be no definitions -- it is incomprehensible, to the Sufi. To be a Muslim, or Christian, well that is quite another thing, in terms of books, expression, history. But the Sufis take monotheism, or vedanta, etc . . . and, like the Buddhist, go to the other shore, abandoning the raft . . . but they never abandon the expression of faith. Most common form expression of Sufis ... la illiha il Allah There is no God (negation) But God (affirmation) We could talk about Taoism at this point, that would be obvious. There is no way for us to ultimately have beliefs. Beliefs are only conventionally useful, or not so useful. All mystics shed the skin of 'religion'. Anyone interested could find some comparative studies along these lines in this work . . . the Perennialist and Neo Traditionalist have written a great deal about this sort of thing. http://www.amazon.com/Sufism-Taoism-Comparative-Philosophical-Concepts/dp/0520052641 Merry Christmas zendervish --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > Salik, > > I agree zen = experience, but the discussion was about 'faith'. > > I use the term 'faith' to describe a type of belief that has no experiential, > scientific or logical foundation. > > 'Belief' for me is a more general term and does include beliefs based on > experience or scientific evidence or logic/reason. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], "salik888" <novelidea8@> wrote: > > > > Karl Jaspers referred to faith as a 'leap'. Leap of faith . . . there was > > no way to know, you could understant in some small way, but in terms of > > what Religion offered on a sensible reasonable level, all systems had > > fallen short of completion -- due to our level in the contingent scheme of > > things. Faith is just a way of saying, I can let go and move, take the next > > step, that's all . . . > > > > So back to Zazen and faith. > > > > Of course faith can be verified with the senses, to a certain extent. > > > > Zazen = experience > > > > zendervish > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > Chris, Salik, et al... > > > > > > Okay, if you don't like my proposed simile as in 'faith' = 'belief', how > > > about a proposed antonym as in 'faith' as opposed to/contrasted with > > > 'know'? > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "salik888" <novelidea8@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Sorry, but Faith is not necessarily another word for belief . . . all > > > > traditions use this expression. Grace is another word bandied about; to > > > > the secularist, we could just call these things, good luck, or a sense > > > > of security. Tillich made reference to faith, and all things in > > > > Christianity, in terms of 'the ground of being'. So, now we are back to > > > > presence. > > > > > > > > I have heard Zen Masters use the term 'faith' on many occassions. > > > > > > > > Lou Reed sang, 'you need a busload of faith to get by'. > > > > > > > > If you don't have faith in your own zazen, then why do it? > > > > > > > > Faith is stupid, dumb, superstitious, useful, necessary, not necessary, > > > > etc . . . but it does not necessarily have anything to do with belief > > > > systems. > > > > > > > > NLP creates great space for faith. > > > > > > > > in my estimation, faith has to do with action, taking action, which > > > > last time I checked none of us are able to stop in the mechanical > > > > universe in which we live. > > > > > > > > zendervish > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > > > The 'heart' of Christianity is FAITH, which is another word for > > > > > 'belief'. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, as my Episcopal t-shirt says below, belief is not at the > > > > > > heart of > > > > > > Christianity, rather the action of worshipping in community is. > > > > > > There is a > > > > > > tremendous variety of beliefs in my church at least. it is fun to > > > > > > have a > > > > > > variety of beliefs but it's peripheral. I find it easier to speak > > > > > > to folks > > > > > > with less out there beliefs at coffee hour, but fulfilling to speak > > > > > > with > > > > > > anyone when I have an open heart or ears. > > > > > > > > > > > > Metaphor is sort of a timid word, howevere. But there is I am sure > > > > > > some > > > > > > group of metaphor believers around. (#10 I believe is not strictly > > > > > > true - > > > > > > at least in.Charlotte NC there was a church of speaking in tongues, > > > > > > and I > > > > > > think snake handling tends to go along with that 'charismatic' sect. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think most serious people of any religion do not read the Bible or > > > > > > anything else looking for scientific truths, but for external input > > > > > > that > > > > > > clarifies our ability to accept Creation as it is now and respond > > > > > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > > > > > Top Ten Reasons to be an Episcopalian: > > > > > > > > > > > > (from the comedian Robin Williams, who is an Episcopalian, on a > > > > > > recent HBO > > > > > > special) > > > > > > 10. No snake handling. > > > > > > 9. You can believe in dinosaurs. > > > > > > 8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them. > > > > > > 7. You don't have to check your brains at the door. > > > > > > 6. Pew aerobics. > > > > > > 5. Church year is color-coded. > > > > > > 4. Free wine on Sunday. > > > > > > 3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt. > > > > > > 2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized. > > > > > > "And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian:" > > > > > > 1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one > > > > > > other > > > > > > Episcopalian who agrees with you. > > > > > > Copyright © 2002 St. Augustine by-the-Sea > > > > > > On Dec 14, 2012 2:26 PM, "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be like being a Christian but not believing Jesus was > > > > > > > > the Son > > > > > > > of God. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You raise a point that's long been *very* interesting to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder about the case of someone who takes the whole > > > > > > > Christian/Jewish > > > > > > > story as metaphor. Can such a person be a good Christian? Or, > > > > > > > does > > > > > > > *everyone* take the Christian story as metaphor? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suppose that such a person will -- or can -- be good, in all > > > > > > > ways. And > > > > > > > I suspect that such a person believes that the real story, the > > > > > > > true picture > > > > > > > of reality in its depth and heights, is not and cannot be > > > > > > > encapsulated in > > > > > > > any story, person, historical event, or even metaphor, nor via any > > > > > > > conceivable thread of reasoning, nor science or philosophy. This > > > > > > > leaves > > > > > > > the picture open to appreciation as a "mystery", which is a > > > > > > > pretty good > > > > > > > state of affairs, I think. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The metaphor 'just' gives a structure by which to approach the > > > > > > > reality, > > > > > > > because there's no other way to preserve or make available the > > > > > > > lived > > > > > > > tradition, other than to encapsulate it, *SOMEHOW*, for > > > > > > > transmission to > > > > > > > each generation. That's a big "just"! In other words, the > > > > > > > metaphor serves > > > > > > > as a vehicle for transmission of certain clues and cues for the > > > > > > > practitioner, which themselves serve as a Yoga or a ladder for the > > > > > > > practitioner. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like to think that the truest Christians -- the Christians most > > > > > > > intimate > > > > > > > with Christian truths -- are the ones who accept the tradition as > > > > > > > metaphor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I believe this is heresy in my (previous) Church! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet, it may simply be "Secret". For example: the tradition is > > > > > > > taught as > > > > > > > literal truth, but practitioners must simply come to their own > > > > > > > understanding of it, as metaphor, a metaphor for them which > > > > > > > impinges on the > > > > > > > reality of life and opens windows upon Human nature and > > > > > > > relationships, and > > > > > > > upon all of Nature. No one tells you that you must do this. And > > > > > > > this is, > > > > > > > therefore, the only way that such implausible stories can > > > > > > > actually be > > > > > > > useful to a person, spiritually and intellectually: one builds > > > > > > > one's life > > > > > > > and behavior in the light of the metaphor, and in appreciation of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > metaphor. The tradition gracefully allows one to do this. It > > > > > > > only forces > > > > > > > down one's throat the implausible literal stories, and allows you > > > > > > > to do the > > > > > > > real work of understanding and incorporation after you find that > > > > > > > you must > > > > > > > vomit them up. It becomes *entirely* personal! What better > > > > > > > religion than > > > > > > > that, especially if you share it with others. While keeping the > > > > > > > secret of > > > > > > > the metaphoric nature of the teachings, > > > > > > > that is; wink-wink. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, simple notions, still in a puppy-stage, here, and left that > > > > > > > way for > > > > > > > decades, but re-visited occasionally. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may also gather a hint of the state and extent of pollution > > > > > > > of my > > > > > > > "Christianity" by my Zen practice, and experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've heard other folks express that they had first to become a > > > > > > > good Zen > > > > > > > Buddhist practitioner before they could ever have become a good > > > > > > > Christian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any, err-r, thoughts? ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm mostly interested in how someone puts what they call 'zen' > > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > practice than how they acquired it. Of course in this medium the > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > evidence we see is written communication - a very limited medium > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > demonstrating Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I do agree with you that for me zazen (zen meditation) is a > > > > > > > cornerstone of all zen teachings. I can't conceive of anyone > > > > > > > practicing > > > > > > > zen and excluding zazen - but I guess it's possible. It would be > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > being a Christian but not believing Jesus was the Son of God. > > > > > > > You could > > > > > > > call yourself a Christian and could in fact be a very good and > > > > > > > upright > > > > > > > person, but I don't think the majority of your > > > > > > > fellow-parishioners would > > > > > > > accept you as one of them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read > > > > > > > or are > > > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
