Bill, You mistake intent.
I agree, and have all along, the rational mind is not necessary to REALIZE Buddha Nature.... But it is necessary to get to the point where one CAN realize Buddha Nature... Why? Because one either uses the rational mind either to 'practice' Zen which you guys insist is the way, or to study the true nature of the world of forms which I espouse. Reread my post below. That is what I'm saying and have always said..... Edgar On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:01 AM, Bill! wrote: > I did say and still do say the rational mind is not necessary to experiencing > Buddha Nature. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Joe, > > > > Funny! > > > > Practice involves use of the rational mind to achieve the mindless. > > > > Thus the rational mind is necessary to realize Zen... > > > > Which is what I'VE been saying all along and Joe and Bill denying! > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Apr 16, 2013, at 9:52 PM, Merle Lester wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > joe... i am with you!.. a great message....merle > > > > > > > > > William, > > > > > > Bill! may answer just as he will. > > > > > > I'd say that the people you work with, William, may never have realized > > > their Buddha nature if they have not ever practiced. > > > > > > It takes practice of a suitable sort to awaken. Not *just* a lack of > > > intellectual functioning in the moment. > > > > > > Nor do people awaken to Buddha Nature when they are anesthetized, while > > > the intellect sleeps. > > > > > > I doubt that Bill! is saying that people with little going on upstairs or > > > who have become progressively demented have an easier time in awakening. > > > > > > I would say that such a person would still need to practice. And it might > > > be difficult for them to encounter practice if they need to be cared for > > > by others, in a milieu where Zen practice would not be an entry high up > > > on the list of medical or other services that these people require. No, > > > it would never ever appear on the list. > > > > > > I'll put it bluntly in this way: No practice, No awakening. > > > > > > If none of the one, then none of the other. > > > > > > So, what's the hindrance from the intellect? Simply, when, and while the > > > intellect is functioning actively, one does not awaken. When one is > > > thinking, one is in, or on, or of, the relative plane. But when the > > > intellect does not interject and interfere by its movements and its > > > taking center-stage, only the original mind is left. > > > > > > In a demented person, even if the intellect is largely lost, I think the > > > connection to the original mind is blocked by some short-circuited > > > element, or orphan process, or thread of the intellect. > > > > > > In the demented person, perhaps some intellectual process refuses to > > > cease, or cannot cease, like the HAL-9000 in the movie 2001. It had to be > > > removed, by "Dave". > > > > > > In the case of the demented person, the person is stuck. And can not only > > > not express himself/herself, but cannot wake up, either, because some > > > remnant of the intellect has its foot in the door and will not allow that > > > door to close naturally. > > > > > > That door can close naturally in a healthy person, who practices in > > > proper ways and has cooperating circumstances. > > > > > > The demented person may thus not be ABLE to practice, and practice in any > > > case is probably not offered to the person, so practice is or becomes > > > moot. > > > > > > BTW, in a healthy-brained person, even once the door closes, the > > > intellect may still enter in again. Sometimes all too soon. Other times, > > > one goes for very lengthy periods, awake, and also enjoys completely > > > dreamless sleep, for weeks or months. > > > > > > Through continued practice, one can use everything freely, and never > > > stick anywhere. The intellect can be raised and used and lowered, like a > > > shop-window cover, opened and allowed to rest again; it need not always > > > be spinning its wheels uselessly, generating phantoms, and wasting gas. > > > It can be our TOOL: It is NOT "us". > > > > > > And, so we practice! > > > > > > By Intellect, I mean the active reasoning faculty. I do not mean Memory! > > > > > > Bill! may have his own ideas. He usually does, I'm glad to see. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > >
