Siska, What's your native language?
Edgar On May 21, 2013, at 8:32 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Hi Bill, > > I always like that pond haiku. Unfortunately, I often cannot relate to poetry > other than those in my mother language. And I think poetry are best left > un-translated. > > I'm better with koans.... > > Siska > > From: "Bill!" <[email protected]> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 08:20:33 -0000 > To: <[email protected]> > ReplyTo: [email protected] > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! > > > > Siska, > > Exactly! The problem with words (phrases really), especially English, us > that our whole language is duality-based. Even our sentence structure > requires a subject, a verb and an object. The subject's actions or > relationship to the object is described by the verb. There's no way to > adequately represent a totally holistic (non-dualistic) experience in English. > > The closest we can get would be poetry. Japanese has a form called 'haiku' > which has been used by poets wanting to express their holistic experience. > If you read some of those you'll see they are not only completely focused on > sensory experience, they do so as much as possible without the use of a > subject. > > An example is one of the most famous haikus by Matsuo Basho: > > Japanese > Furu ike ya > kawazu tobikomu > mizu no oto > > Direct English Translation > Old pond > frog jumped in > sound of water > > Reasonable English Translation (IMO) > The old pond > A frog jumped in, > Kerplunk! > > A Bad English Translation (IMO) > A lonely pond in age-old stillness sleeps . . . > Apart, unstirred by sound or motion . . . till > Suddenly into it a lithe frog leaps. > > You can find 28 more translations and a nice commentary on this poem at > http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/basho-frog.htm > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > I know what you mean, but 'face-to-face' is commonly use in zen to mean > > > 'one with', or 'not separate from'. > > > > Ah I see... > > > > I also think the term 'one with' is a little bias, but oh well as you said, > > words are limited, dualistic, no matter what we use.... > > > > Siska > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@... > > Sender: [email protected] > > Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 10:58:07 > > To: [email protected] > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zuli Agrees With Bill! > > > > Siska, > > > > I know what you mean, but 'face-to-face' is commonly use in zen to mean > > 'one with', or 'not separate from'. For example many times when someone has > > experienced Buddha Nature they will be reported as saying, "I have met > > Bodhidharma face-to-face and he has not lied" - meaning he has experienced > > Buddha Nature and it is as Bodhidharma (or some other zen master) has > > described. > > > > The problem we always have trying to describe a holistic experience is that > > we have to use a dualistic language to do so. That's why many ancient zen > > masters used non-verbal responses instead of trying to rationally explain > > what they experienced. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi again Bill, > > > > > > In regards to the duality of no experiencer to the experiences you just > > > discussed with Mike, would you fully agree with Zuli's term 'face to face > > > with the real Buddha'? > > > > > > Siska > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 09:12:44 > > > To: [email protected] > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > Subject: [Zen] Zuli Agrees With Bill! > > > > > > > > > I don't know who Zuli is but that doesn't matter to me. Right's right. > > > ..Bill! > > > > > > > >
