Edgar, I have already had more than my share of good luck by having had the opportunity to learn under not just one but two very good teachers.
I don't abrogate my personal responsibility for anything. I do however appreciate help whenever it's offered and am happy to avail myself of it as long as I find it beneficial. I hope you have as much good luck as I've had. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, and Siska, > > Sure, just abrogate all your personal responsibility for your own realization > and leave it up to "a good teacher". > > Good luck! > > Edgar > > > > On May 21, 2013, at 9:29 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > Siska, > > > > You're probably right about preferring poems to remain untranslated. Poems > > are entirely dependent upon language including sound, cadence and meaning. > > > > Koans are more easily translated since they are only dependent upon > > meaning, although some koans refer to terms and objects that were common at > > the time but are not part of our time or culture. A good teacher will help > > you sort that out and IMO it is less problematic for koans than for poems. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > I always like that pond haiku. Unfortunately, I often cannot relate to > > > poetry other than those in my mother language. And I think poetry are > > > best left un-translated. > > > > > > I'm better with koans.... > > > > > > Siska > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 08:20:33 > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! > > > > > > Siska, > > > Exactly! The problem with words (phrases really), especially English, > > > us that our whole language is duality-based. Even our sentence > > > structure requires a subject, a verb and an object. The subject's > > > actions or relationship to the object is described by the verb. There's > > > no way to adequately represent a totally holistic (non-dualistic) > > > experience in English. > > > The closest we can get would be poetry. Japanese has a form called > > > 'haiku' which has been used by poets wanting to express their holistic > > > experience. If you read some of those you'll see they are not only > > > completely focused on sensory experience, they do so as much as possible > > > without the use of a subject. > > > An example is one of the most famous haikus by Matsuo Basho: > > > JapaneseFuru ike yakawazu tobikomumizu no oto > > > Direct English TranslationOld pondfrog jumped insound of water > > > Reasonable English Translation (IMO)The old pondA frog jumped > > > in,Kerplunk! > > > A Bad English Translation (IMO)A lonely pond in age-old stillness sleeps > > > . . .Apart, unstirred by sound or motion . . . tillSuddenly into it a > > > lithe frog leaps. > > > You can find 28 more translations and a nice commentary on this poem at > > > http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/basho-frog.htm > > > ...Bill! > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > I know what you mean, but 'face-to-face' is commonly use in zen to > > > mean 'one with', or 'not separate from'. > > > > > > > > Ah I see... > > > > > > > > I also think the term 'one with' is a little bias, but oh well as you > > > said, words are limited, dualistic, no matter what we use.... > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 10:58:07 > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zuli Agrees With Bill! > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > I know what you mean, but 'face-to-face' is commonly use in zen to > > > mean 'one with', or 'not separate from'. For example many times when > > > someone has experienced Buddha Nature they will be reported as saying, > > > "I have met Bodhidharma face-to-face and he has not lied" - meaning he > > > has experienced Buddha Nature and it is as Bodhidharma (or some other > > > zen master) has described. > > > > > > > > The problem we always have trying to describe a holistic experience is > > > that we have to use a dualistic language to do so. That's why many > > > ancient zen masters used non-verbal responses instead of trying to > > > rationally explain what they experienced. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi again Bill, > > > > > > > > > > In regards to the duality of no experiencer to the experiences you > > > just discussed with Mike, would you fully agree with Zuli's term 'face > > > to face with the real Buddha'? > > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 09:12:44 > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Zuli Agrees With Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know who Zuli is but that doesn't matter to me. Right's > > > right. > > > > > ..Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
