OK, now I'm intrigued. Pardon me for asking but are you a woman or a man? Edgar
On May 22, 2013, at 9:08 AM, [email protected] wrote: > I live in Jakarta. > > Uhm, in case you don't know, (many people don't), that's in Indonesia :) > > Siska > > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 08:33:06 -0400 > To: <[email protected]> > ReplyTo: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! > > > Interesting. Thanks. Where do you live now? > > > Edgar > > > On May 22, 2013, at 7:40 AM, [email protected] wrote: > >> >> Hi Edgar, >> >> Born and grew up in Indonesia, my native language is Indonesian. >> >> Siska >> >> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> >> Sender: [email protected] >> Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 07:08:51 -0400 >> To: <[email protected]> >> ReplyTo: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! >> >> >> Siska, >> >> >> What's your native language? >> >> Edgar >> >> >> On May 21, 2013, at 8:32 PM, [email protected] wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi Bill, >>> >>> I always like that pond haiku. Unfortunately, I often cannot relate to >>> poetry other than those in my mother language. And I think poetry are best >>> left un-translated. >>> >>> I'm better with koans.... >>> >>> Siska >>> >>> From: "Bill!" <[email protected]> >>> Sender: [email protected] >>> Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 08:20:33 -0000 >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> ReplyTo: [email protected] >>> Subject: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! >>> >>> >>> >>> Siska, >>> >>> Exactly! The problem with words (phrases really), especially English, us >>> that our whole language is duality-based. Even our sentence structure >>> requires a subject, a verb and an object. The subject's actions or >>> relationship to the object is described by the verb. There's no way to >>> adequately represent a totally holistic (non-dualistic) experience in >>> English. >>> >>> The closest we can get would be poetry. Japanese has a form called 'haiku' >>> which has been used by poets wanting to express their holistic experience. >>> If you read some of those you'll see they are not only completely focused >>> on sensory experience, they do so as much as possible without the use of a >>> subject. >>> >>> An example is one of the most famous haikus by Matsuo Basho: >>> >>> Japanese >>> Furu ike ya >>> kawazu tobikomu >>> mizu no oto >>> >>> Direct English Translation >>> Old pond >>> frog jumped in >>> sound of water >>> >>> Reasonable English Translation (IMO) >>> The old pond >>> A frog jumped in, >>> Kerplunk! >>> >>> A Bad English Translation (IMO) >>> A lonely pond in age-old stillness sleeps . . . >>> Apart, unstirred by sound or motion . . . till >>> Suddenly into it a lithe frog leaps. >>> >>> You can find 28 more translations and a nice commentary on this poem at >>> http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/basho-frog.htm >>> >>> ...Bill! >>> >>> --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi Bill, >>> > >>> > > I know what you mean, but 'face-to-face' is commonly use in zen to mean >>> > > 'one with', or 'not separate from'. >>> > >>> > Ah I see... >>> > >>> > I also think the term 'one with' is a little bias, but oh well as you >>> > said, words are limited, dualistic, no matter what we use.... >>> > >>> > Siska >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@... >>> > Sender: [email protected] >>> > Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 10:58:07 >>> > To: [email protected] >>> > Reply-To: [email protected] >>> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zuli Agrees With Bill! >>> > >>> > Siska, >>> > >>> > I know what you mean, but 'face-to-face' is commonly use in zen to mean >>> > 'one with', or 'not separate from'. For example many times when someone >>> > has experienced Buddha Nature they will be reported as saying, "I have >>> > met Bodhidharma face-to-face and he has not lied" - meaning he has >>> > experienced Buddha Nature and it is as Bodhidharma (or some other zen >>> > master) has described. >>> > >>> > The problem we always have trying to describe a holistic experience is >>> > that we have to use a dualistic language to do so. That's why many >>> > ancient zen masters used non-verbal responses instead of trying to >>> > rationally explain what they experienced. >>> > >>> > ...Bill! >>> > >>> > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Hi again Bill, >>> > > >>> > > In regards to the duality of no experiencer to the experiences you just >>> > > discussed with Mike, would you fully agree with Zuli's term 'face to >>> > > face with the real Buddha'? >>> > > >>> > > Siska >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ >>> > > Sender: [email protected] >>> > > Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 09:12:44 >>> > > To: [email protected] >>> > > Reply-To: [email protected] >>> > > Subject: [Zen] Zuli Agrees With Bill! >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > I don't know who Zuli is but that doesn't matter to me. Right's right. >>> > > ..Bill! >>> > > >>> > >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > >
