After thinking about this more I must say some koans are dependent upon sound, although there is only one I can say that of and that is the koan Mu. And even Mu is primarily dependent upon meaning and only secondarily dependent upon sound depending on how you work on it.
...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > Siska, > > You're probably right about preferring poems to remain untranslated. Poems > are entirely dependent upon language including sound, cadence and meaning. > > Koans are more easily translated since they are only dependent upon meaning, > although some koans refer to terms and objects that were common at the time > but are not part of our time or culture. A good teacher will help you sort > that out and IMO it is less problematic for koans than for poems. > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > I always like that pond haiku. Unfortunately, I often cannot relate to > > poetry other than those in my mother language. And I think poetry are best > > left un-translated. > > > > I'm better with koans.... > > > > Siska > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 08:20:33 > > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! > > > > Siska, > > Exactly! The problem with words (phrases really), especially English, > > us that our whole language is duality-based. Even our sentence > > structure requires a subject, a verb and an object. The subject's > > actions or relationship to the object is described by the verb. There's > > no way to adequately represent a totally holistic (non-dualistic) > > experience in English. > > The closest we can get would be poetry. Japanese has a form called > > 'haiku' which has been used by poets wanting to express their holistic > > experience. If you read some of those you'll see they are not only > > completely focused on sensory experience, they do so as much as possible > > without the use of a subject. > > An example is one of the most famous haikus by Matsuo Basho: > > JapaneseFuru ike yakawazu tobikomumizu no oto > > Direct English TranslationOld pondfrog jumped insound of water > > Reasonable English Translation (IMO)The old pondA frog jumped > > in,Kerplunk! > > A Bad English Translation (IMO)A lonely pond in age-old stillness sleeps > > . . .Apart, unstirred by sound or motion . . . tillSuddenly into it a > > lithe frog leaps. > > You can find 28 more translations and a nice commentary on this poem at > > http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/basho-frog.htm > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > I know what you mean, but 'face-to-face' is commonly use in zen to > > mean 'one with', or 'not separate from'. > > > > > > Ah I see... > > > > > > I also think the term 'one with' is a little bias, but oh well as you > > said, words are limited, dualistic, no matter what we use.... > > > > > > Siska > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 10:58:07 > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zuli Agrees With Bill! > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > I know what you mean, but 'face-to-face' is commonly use in zen to > > mean 'one with', or 'not separate from'. For example many times when > > someone has experienced Buddha Nature they will be reported as saying, > > "I have met Bodhidharma face-to-face and he has not lied" - meaning he > > has experienced Buddha Nature and it is as Bodhidharma (or some other > > zen master) has described. > > > > > > The problem we always have trying to describe a holistic experience is > > that we have to use a dualistic language to do so. That's why many > > ancient zen masters used non-verbal responses instead of trying to > > rationally explain what they experienced. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi again Bill, > > > > > > > > In regards to the duality of no experiencer to the experiences you > > just discussed with Mike, would you fully agree with Zuli's term 'face > > to face with the real Buddha'? > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 09:12:44 > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [Zen] Zuli Agrees With Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know who Zuli is but that doesn't matter to me. Right's > > right. > > > > ..Bill! > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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