Bill, and Siska, Sure, just abrogate all your personal responsibility for your own realization and leave it up to "a good teacher".
Good luck! Edgar On May 21, 2013, at 9:29 PM, Bill! wrote: > Siska, > > You're probably right about preferring poems to remain untranslated. Poems > are entirely dependent upon language including sound, cadence and meaning. > > Koans are more easily translated since they are only dependent upon meaning, > although some koans refer to terms and objects that were common at the time > but are not part of our time or culture. A good teacher will help you sort > that out and IMO it is less problematic for koans than for poems. > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > I always like that pond haiku. Unfortunately, I often cannot relate to > > poetry other than those in my mother language. And I think poetry are best > > left un-translated. > > > > I'm better with koans.... > > > > Siska > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 08:20:33 > > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! > > > > Siska, > > Exactly! The problem with words (phrases really), especially English, > > us that our whole language is duality-based. Even our sentence > > structure requires a subject, a verb and an object. The subject's > > actions or relationship to the object is described by the verb. There's > > no way to adequately represent a totally holistic (non-dualistic) > > experience in English. > > The closest we can get would be poetry. Japanese has a form called > > 'haiku' which has been used by poets wanting to express their holistic > > experience. If you read some of those you'll see they are not only > > completely focused on sensory experience, they do so as much as possible > > without the use of a subject. > > An example is one of the most famous haikus by Matsuo Basho: > > JapaneseFuru ike yakawazu tobikomumizu no oto > > Direct English TranslationOld pondfrog jumped insound of water > > Reasonable English Translation (IMO)The old pondA frog jumped > > in,Kerplunk! > > A Bad English Translation (IMO)A lonely pond in age-old stillness sleeps > > . . .Apart, unstirred by sound or motion . . . tillSuddenly into it a > > lithe frog leaps. > > You can find 28 more translations and a nice commentary on this poem at > > http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/basho-frog.htm > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > I know what you mean, but 'face-to-face' is commonly use in zen to > > mean 'one with', or 'not separate from'. > > > > > > Ah I see... > > > > > > I also think the term 'one with' is a little bias, but oh well as you > > said, words are limited, dualistic, no matter what we use.... > > > > > > Siska > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 10:58:07 > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zuli Agrees With Bill! > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > I know what you mean, but 'face-to-face' is commonly use in zen to > > mean 'one with', or 'not separate from'. For example many times when > > someone has experienced Buddha Nature they will be reported as saying, > > "I have met Bodhidharma face-to-face and he has not lied" - meaning he > > has experienced Buddha Nature and it is as Bodhidharma (or some other > > zen master) has described. > > > > > > The problem we always have trying to describe a holistic experience is > > that we have to use a dualistic language to do so. That's why many > > ancient zen masters used non-verbal responses instead of trying to > > rationally explain what they experienced. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi again Bill, > > > > > > > > In regards to the duality of no experiencer to the experiences you > > just discussed with Mike, would you fully agree with Zuli's term 'face > > to face with the real Buddha'? > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 09:12:44 > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [Zen] Zuli Agrees With Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know who Zuli is but that doesn't matter to me. Right's > > right. > > > > ..Bill! > > > > > > > > > > >
