Interesting. Thanks. Where do you live now? Edgar
On May 22, 2013, at 7:40 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Hi Edgar, > > Born and grew up in Indonesia, my native language is Indonesian. > > Siska > > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 07:08:51 -0400 > To: <[email protected]> > ReplyTo: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! > > > Siska, > > > What's your native language? > > Edgar > > > On May 21, 2013, at 8:32 PM, [email protected] wrote: > >> >> Hi Bill, >> >> I always like that pond haiku. Unfortunately, I often cannot relate to >> poetry other than those in my mother language. And I think poetry are best >> left un-translated. >> >> I'm better with koans.... >> >> Siska >> >> From: "Bill!" <[email protected]> >> Sender: [email protected] >> Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 08:20:33 -0000 >> To: <[email protected]> >> ReplyTo: [email protected] >> Subject: [Zen] Re: Zuli Agrees With Bill! >> >> >> >> Siska, >> >> Exactly! The problem with words (phrases really), especially English, us >> that our whole language is duality-based. Even our sentence structure >> requires a subject, a verb and an object. The subject's actions or >> relationship to the object is described by the verb. There's no way to >> adequately represent a totally holistic (non-dualistic) experience in >> English. >> >> The closest we can get would be poetry. Japanese has a form called 'haiku' >> which has been used by poets wanting to express their holistic experience. >> If you read some of those you'll see they are not only completely focused on >> sensory experience, they do so as much as possible without the use of a >> subject. >> >> An example is one of the most famous haikus by Matsuo Basho: >> >> Japanese >> Furu ike ya >> kawazu tobikomu >> mizu no oto >> >> Direct English Translation >> Old pond >> frog jumped in >> sound of water >> >> Reasonable English Translation (IMO) >> The old pond >> A frog jumped in, >> Kerplunk! >> >> A Bad English Translation (IMO) >> A lonely pond in age-old stillness sleeps . . . >> Apart, unstirred by sound or motion . . . till >> Suddenly into it a lithe frog leaps. >> >> You can find 28 more translations and a nice commentary on this poem at >> http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/basho-frog.htm >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: >> > >> > Hi Bill, >> > >> > > I know what you mean, but 'face-to-face' is commonly use in zen to mean >> > > 'one with', or 'not separate from'. >> > >> > Ah I see... >> > >> > I also think the term 'one with' is a little bias, but oh well as you >> > said, words are limited, dualistic, no matter what we use.... >> > >> > Siska >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@... >> > Sender: [email protected] >> > Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 10:58:07 >> > To: [email protected] >> > Reply-To: [email protected] >> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zuli Agrees With Bill! >> > >> > Siska, >> > >> > I know what you mean, but 'face-to-face' is commonly use in zen to mean >> > 'one with', or 'not separate from'. For example many times when someone >> > has experienced Buddha Nature they will be reported as saying, "I have met >> > Bodhidharma face-to-face and he has not lied" - meaning he has experienced >> > Buddha Nature and it is as Bodhidharma (or some other zen master) has >> > described. >> > >> > The problem we always have trying to describe a holistic experience is >> > that we have to use a dualistic language to do so. That's why many ancient >> > zen masters used non-verbal responses instead of trying to rationally >> > explain what they experienced. >> > >> > ...Bill! >> > >> > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: >> > > >> > > Hi again Bill, >> > > >> > > In regards to the duality of no experiencer to the experiences you just >> > > discussed with Mike, would you fully agree with Zuli's term 'face to >> > > face with the real Buddha'? >> > > >> > > Siska >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ >> > > Sender: [email protected] >> > > Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 09:12:44 >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Reply-To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: [Zen] Zuli Agrees With Bill! >> > > >> > > >> > > I don't know who Zuli is but that doesn't matter to me. Right's right. >> > > ..Bill! >> > > >> > >> >> > > > >
