Edgar, What would you consider the action of plants turning toward a light source? Would you consider that rationality, reason, intelligence, reaction or what?
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Chris, > > I'm proud of your understanding of my theory, at least in your first sentence. > > Yes, it is true that stones are fundamentally result states of computations > occurring in the world of forms. What WE experience as stones are OUR > computations of the interactions of our empty form with the empty forms of > stones. However stones don't themselves compute their next state at least in > the usual sense of the stone itself as an active intelligence. > > As to the definition of reason and rationality I repeat that all organisms > can be considered as intelligent 'programs' running in the information world > of the world of forms. They are intelligent in the sense that they are able > to compute actions that enable them to function more effectively than would > be the case if they just followed the laws of inanimate nature as the > computations that are stones do. > > So rationality and reason in my definition doesn't mean someone is > exceptionally intelligent. It just means that they do better than randomly > following the laws of inanimate nature. Even worms and bacteria are this kind > of intelligent system and in my sense they do reason. > > Hmmm, maybe I should start using intelligence instead of reason or > rationality? > > Do you think that would help people understand what I'm saying better? > > Edgar > > > > On May 25, 2013, at 5:20 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > > > > > I thought in your view inanimate stones compute their next state? > > > > And what I mean by rationality is not intelligent computation but > > meandering through the associative network of concepts which seem to make > > up my conscious arena. > > > > The putting on of pants need not involve that arena at all and may consist > > solely of neural level computations, which seems to be your idea of > > rationality. > > > > Thanks, > > --Chris > > 301-270-6524 > > On May 25, 2013 2:15 PM, "Edgar Owen" <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > > > Chris, > > > > By reasoning I mean intelligent computation. All organisms compute to > > function. Without this intelligent reasoning they'd be inanimate stones. > > > > Which seems to be Bill's goal since he thinks that's Zen... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On May 25, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> I can get dressed perfectly well without activating any reasoning > >> circuits. Subconscious planning and spatial understanding circuits may be > >> used. But not what I think Bill means by rationality. > >> > >> To be it sounds like you say rationality is involved if ones nervous > >> system calculates the path of fluid flow in a gravity field as one pours > >> tea out, or you know calculates the muscle activations needed to push a > >> lrg through the pants. That is embodied calculation, or effort less > >> effort, or intuitive action. What I and I think Bill! and many Zen writers > >> mean by rationality is an add on - cognition not embodied directly but > >> simulated in the nervous system. Trying to think, thoughts that try to be > >> more than thoughts, conscious reasoning, that sort of activity. Mistaking > >> that sort of activity for reality is what Zen cautions against, not the > >> embodied practical reason of the nervous system. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> --Chris > >> 301-270-6524 > >> On May 25, 2013 8:57 AM, "Edgar Owen" <edgarowen@...> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Chris, > >> > >> Yes, if you manage to put your pants on in the morning you ARE using your > >> rational mind. > >> > >> Bill obviously walks around without pants all day hoping to preserve his > >> Zen... > >> > >> Edgar > >> > >> > >> > >> On May 25, 2013, at 11:14 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> I say the thoughts have actual reality and a limited illusory implicit > >>> world view they carry with them. > >>> > >>> I don't find much reason to distinguish the neuronal firings of hearing a > >>> frog jumping into the water and the neuronal firings of remembering a > >>> frog jumping into water. But to take a thought seriously, haha, that way > >>> leads to madness. > >>> > >>> The fact of maths being so effective in science is still in my mind part > >>> of the mystery, and some little model of computation cribbed from recent > >>> popular science fails to address it. > >>> > >>> I also am pretty sure one may put pants on without having an effective > >>> reasonable model of computation externalized. One may just put the pants > >>> on. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> --Chris > >>> 301-270-6524 > >>> On May 25, 2013 7:10 AM, "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > >>> Edgar, > >>> > >>> People create illusions so why can't people decide on whether they're > >>> real or not? > >>> > >>> I say they're not. > >>> > >>> ...Bill! > >>> > >>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >>> > > >>> > Bill, > >>> > > >>> > People don't decide whether illusions are real or not. Reality does! > >>> > Get that through your solipsistic head! > >>> > > >>> > Edgar > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On May 25, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Bill! wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > Edgar, > >>> > > > >>> > > As long as you agree dualism is an illusion you can call it 'reality' > >>> > > if you wish. I don't agree, but we can let others decide for > >>> > > themselves if illusions are real or not. > >>> > > > >>> > > ...Bill! > >>> > > > >>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Bill, > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Total agreement as stated. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in > >>> > > > reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole > >>> > > > meaning.. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Edgar > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > Siska, > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar > >>> > > > > opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably > >>> > > > > disagree with this statement ;>) and will certainly jump all over > >>> > > > > the rest of this post. > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > Rumi's poem/metaphor was: > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > I looked for my self, > >>> > > > > But my self was gone. > >>> > > > > The boundaries of my being > >>> > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. > >>> > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > >>> > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. > >>> > > > > It always happens like this. > >>> > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > >>> > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. > >>> > > > > Another being takes form. > >>> > > > > And when the sea sends word, > >>> > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > >>> > > > > - Rumi > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves > >>> > > > > form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend > >>> > > > > themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in > >>> > > > > Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of > >>> > > > > it is: > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > I looked for my self, > >>> > > > > But my self was gone. > >>> > > > > The boundaries of my being > >>> > > > > Had disappeared in the sea. > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The > >>> > > > > illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as > >>> > > > > something independent and apart from everything else has vanished > >>> > > > > with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for > >>> > > > > emptiness. > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > Waves broke. Awareness rose again. > >>> > > > > And a voice returned me to myself. > >>> > > > > It always happens like this. > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has > >>> > > > > been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This > >>> > > > > alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and > >>> > > > > self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically > >>> > > > > upon the beach. > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > Sea turns on itself and foams, > >>> > > > > And with every foaming bit another body. > >>> > > > > Another being takes form. > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, > >>> > > > > perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things > >>> > > > > appear. > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > And when the sea sends word, > >>> > > > > Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions > >>> > > > > melt back into emptiness. > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see > >>> > > > > what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it > >>> > > > > for him... > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > ...Bill! > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Hi Bill, > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > I followed until: "Waves broke". > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Siska > >>> > > > > > -----Original Message----- > >>> > > > > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > >>> > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > >>> > > > > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 > >>> > > > > > To: [email protected] > >>> > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > >>> > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > ..Bill! > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > >>> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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