I was going to say that in all my conversations with people studying koans and all my reading of zen, I have never before run into a claim of solving a koan. However, in fact, there is a book called After Zen about a Dutch detective who becomes disillusioned with Zen (Rinzai school, as practised in Canada at a remote monastery) and who found his tradition to be a bit abusive, which has a scene where the author and another former student discuss how demonstrating anger is necessary for the teacher to pass a student.
Cheers, Chris Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 Chris, That's the theory, but it's only one of several types of first steps for beginners to (hopefully) get a little satori experience by temporarily exhausting their brains trying to figure out something that doesn't have an easy solution. The other approach is to actually SOLVE the koan and experience the Buddha Nature in reality that way... After that one eventually realizes that Buddha Nature is the essence of everything including intellect... Edgar On Jun 8, 2013, at 9:48 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Ok, but would you agree that Bill's descrion of classical koan training is accurate - the koan is used to silence the generation of thoughts and words? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jun 8, 2013 6:47 AM, "Edgar Owen" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Chris, > > I've been dealing with the quantum koan all my life. > > Reality is the ultimate koan... Solve that one and you've got it! > > Edgar > > > > On Jun 8, 2013, at 9:43 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > > > > I didn't think you had done Koan training, Edgar? > > Thanks, > --Chris > 301-270-6524 > On Jun 8, 2013 4:40 AM, "Edgar Owen" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> Bill, >> >> O boy, here we go again.... >> >> Maybe YOUR intellect shuts down but my intellect IS Buddha Nature.... >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 7, 2013, at 11:17 PM, Bill! wrote: >> >> >> >> Suresh, et al... >> >> I agree with Joe here. In fact zen koans are used to exhaust logic and >> dialectic. When you try to use logic or dialectic to 'solve' a koan you >> will continually fail and eventually will just give up out of frustration >> or boredom - much the way you can relax your mind by gazing into a fire >> (chaotic image) or hearing a repetitious sound (ticking of a clock). Your >> mind may first try to 'make sense' (create a perception) out of the >> changing images of the flames or the constant ticking of the clock, but >> eventually will just 'tune them out'. >> >> The same happens with to your intellect during a koan. It eventually just >> shuts down - and what then is left? Buddha Nature! >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote: >> > >> > Suresh, >> > >> > Well, "obsessed" is too strong -- and wrong -- a word. >> > >> > On a Zen forum, I don't mind speaking about Zen, however. Your habit >> seems to speak about all else but Zen. >> > >> > Other things enter here from time to time, of course, which relate to >> our topic. >> > >> > But in general, I enjoy keeping on-topic, and making the forum a more >> concentrated place upon the central topic that it is dedicated to. Here, >> such concentration is not "obsession": but it is "keeping on topic", and >> following the Terms of Service of the board. >> > >> > You say you know Naimy: but he passed away 25 years ago. Did you know >> him personally, earlier? >> > >> > I do not agree that argument can lead to what you call pure >> consciousness. Neither does it have to do with the "No Mind" of Zen >> awakening. Argument and dialectic can only show the futility of using logic >> and thought to realize Buddha Mind. Once a person is satisfied -- and >> exhausted -- that cogitation is futile, he/she can then get down to actual >> practice, instead, preferably with a Zen teacher and a group, and see them >> regularly, and practice Zazen regularly. That is, if your interest is in >> fact really in Zen. >> > >> > --Joe >> > >> > > "Suresh" <varamtha@> wrote: >> > > >> > > Dear Joe, >> > > >> > > Of course the discussion was with other forum member. I know the >> author of The Book of Mirdad. >> > > >> > > I have posted it since it is also related to Buddha. Since that >> member thought Buddha also copied from vedas, I have to argue with him. >> > > >> > > Like you are so much obsessed with zen and zen only, the other member >> is obsessed with Hindu scriptures such as vedas. He thinks only vedas are >> supreme and oldest and all other have copied and told in their own way. >> > > >> > > I don't like obsession. I am free from all theories and all ism. >> > > >> > > I also wanted to indicate my way of argument, which when followed >> carefully arrive at pure consciousness or No self in zen terms. >> > > >> > > I only post what is related to zen, meditation, no self, the pure >> consciouness. >> > >> >> >> >> >> > > > >
