Edgar, I agree 100% with that! Like the Noble Eightfold Path: Right Speech, Right Thought, Right Intentions, etc... Why do they name only 8 classes? Why do they name classes at all? Why not just: Live Right? And anyway the challenge isn't doing all the 'right' things. The challenge is determining what is right and what is not.
I call this "The Twelve Days Of Christmas Syndrome": You know...four calling birds, three French hens, two turtle doves and a partridge in a pear treeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. ;>) ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > I think it's a matter of definition. In general I think excessive concern > with 'stages' of realization is a distraction from realization... And that > goes for standard Buddhism's obsessive with counting all sorts of things as > well. The 7 this, the 5 that, the 8 this etc. etc. > > > Edgar > > > > On Jun 29, 2013, at 2:11 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > As you know I don't like to rely too much on Buddhist or Hindu terms either. > > > > 'Samadhi' is a meditative state of non-duality or monism. It's what I also > > call 'shikantazaza' if you're experiencing it during zazen. It can also be > > called no-thought. I associate it strongly with Buddha Nature since there > > is no dualism thus no delusion. I know you include delusions in Buddha > > Nature, but I'm just explaining my terminology. > > > > Anyway, if 'samadhi' is a state of pure non-duality how do you think that > > equates with 'nirvana'? I'm begining to think the only diffrence is > > 'samadhi' is temporary where 'nirvana' is permanent. > > > > What do you (or anyone else) think? > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > I don't use the term and don't really get into all the interminable > > > Buddhist and HIndu levels and counts of everything anyone could think > > > of... > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > As a follow-on to this, what do you consider the difference/distinction > > > > between samadhi and nirvana? ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > I liked your description of the difference between enlightenment and > > > > > nirvana: "...enlightenment in which one does not leave the world of > > > > > forms but just sees them for what they truly are..." and "In nirvana > > > > > all forms cease permanently." > > > > > > > > > > I agree with that and use the term 'delusions' as a term for your > > > > > "...see them for what they truly are...". > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > > First, the law of karma is nonsense. I'm not defending it, just > > > > > > explaining it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also as you can see your reply as received was garbled so don't > > > > > > have time to wade through it all.. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, karma plays itself out eventually. As to karma suddenly > > > > > > ceasing that's only when all forms cease in what is called nirvana > > > > > > which Buddhism in general (there are some variant beliefs) takes as > > > > > > cessation of all form. Nirvana is a state far beyond enlightenment > > > > > > in which one does not leave the world of forms but just sees them > > > > > > for what they truly are, empty forms of Buddha Nature. In nirvana > > > > > > all forms cease permanently. > > > > > > > > > > > > Standard Buddhist doctrine believes that one may eventually work > > > > > > through all one's karma through successive reincarnations and > > > > > > eventual escape form altogether. > > > > > > > > > > > > But since there is NO reincarnation the true understanding is that > > > > > > dying is equivalent to nirvana, because it is only in death that > > > > > > all forms cease (to the dead person) and only in death does one > > > > > > escape the world of forms and reach nirvana. At death one's karma > > > > > > automatically ceases whether one is good or bad, or enlightened or > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sort of crazy that Buddhists take death as the ultimate salvation > > > > > > when seen in the proper light..... > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the proper understanding of karma which properly understood > > > > > > is just cause and effect in the world of forms that ceases when one > > > > > > leaves the world of forms in death. And also believing that good > > > > > > always beget good and evil evil is total nonsense. Maybe slightly > > > > > > above 50% at best depending on who is doing the judging.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 28, 2013, at 3:07 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar,<br/><br/>There is no confusion in what I said at all and > > > > > > > it also depends on from which tradition you're talking about > > > > > > > karma. As I've been taught, karma will indeed play itself out, > > > > > > > but only as long as a person still identifies themselves with a > > > > > > > self. Upon awakening to our Original Nature (which can happen at > > > > > > > any time) karma is extinguished because where is the self for > > > > > > > karma to attach to? Unless of course you're getting karma > > > > > > > confused with the crazy notion that karma is fatalistic and/or > > > > > > > deterministic which would make emancipation from karma > > > > > > > impossible.<br/><br/>Here are a few snippets on the subject. > > > > > > > There are many, many more out there if you care to do the > > > > > > > research..<br/><br/>>He who believes in Karma does not condemn > > > > > > > even the most corrupt, for they, too, have their chance to reform > > > > > > > themselves ***at any moment*** (buddhanet.net)<<br/><br/>>Since > > > > > > > basic nature transcends all duality and is ultimate, there is no > > > > > > > one to receive the effect, whether > > > > > > > it is good or bad, and no one to whom any effect can apply. Cause > > > > > > > and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at > > > > > > > the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there > > > > > > > is no one to receive the effect of the Karma, whether it is good > > > > > > > or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the > > > > > > > law of Karma is not applicable (angel-fire.com)<<br/><br/>>In the > > > > > > > Vajrayana tradition, it is believed that the effects of negative > > > > > > > past karma can be "purified" through such practices as meditation > > > > > > > on Vajrasattva.[91] The performer of the action, after having > > > > > > > purified the karma, does not experience the negative results he > > > > > > > or she otherwise would have.[92]<br/>(Wiki)<br/><br/>>The > > > > > > > Japanese Tendai/Pure Land teacher Genshin taught that Amida > > > > > > > Buddha has the power to destroy the karma that would otherwise > > > > > > > bind one in saá¹sÄra.[89][90]<br/><br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/>Sent > > > > > > > from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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