Mike, Funny! Because Bill's (and now apparently your) "just this" at night would have been the snake that was really a piece of rope!
That's why "just this" JUST doesn't cut it. I can imagine Bill at the magic show yelling "just this" as every illusion is performed believing they are all real because they are his direct experience! By claiming the immediate experience of "just this" is reality you mistake illusion for reality..... In the cases above it's obvious, but if you understand the biology of perception you understand it happens EVERY TIME.... Edgar On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:50 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Edgar, > > There many gold standards for what reality is, but surely what we experience > as humans is all we have to go on? If I see a snake at night, how I react at > that time is far more important than in the morning realising it was just a > piece of old rope. > > Mike > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; > To: <[email protected]>; > Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how plain > is that? > Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 1:29:39 PM > > > Bill, > > > The point is that Bill's "just this" is something produced by complex sensory > and cognitive processes. It does NOT correspond to raw reality as he would > have us believe. It's the RESULT of a very complex sequence of processes. > > That's why Bill's just this is actually "just this ILLUSION mistaken for > reality".... > > True you don't experience reality like this. Because you ARE NOT EXPERIENCING > REALITY AT ALL! > > Edgar > > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:14 AM, [email protected] wrote: > >> >> Edgar, >> >> But you don't experience reality like that. Do you have to understand the >> endocrine system to take a pee? >> >> Mike >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; >> To: <[email protected]>; >> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how >> plain is that? >> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 12:58:56 PM >> >> >> Bill, >> >> >> That's very bad biology. There are 3 general stages involved. Raw sensory >> experience which occurs separately in each different sense organ. There is >> considerable pre-processing there where eg. edges and motion are >> preferentially detected. 2nd there is perception in the optic lobes, 3rd the >> brain itself makes what is perceived into objects in the context of one's >> internal model of reality. >> >> You can't just make things up that are contrary to the way biology actually >> works... >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Jul 7, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Bill! wrote: >> >>> >>> Edgar, >>> >>> What's causing confusion is you continue to look at experience only from a >>> pluralistic POV. From a pluralistic POV there is a distinction between >>> sight, sound, taste, smell and touch. From a monistic POV there is no >>> distinction. It's just experience. Experience is only separated into the >>> different senses when pluralism arises along with perception. It's then >>> that you see, hear, taste, smell and touch. Before pluralism there is just >>> experience - Just THIS! >>> >>> It doesn't matter if my perception is different (worse or better - like >>> eyesight or hearing) than yours. For example blurry vision doesn't produce >>> a different experience than clear vision. The vision being blurry or clear >>> is a perception, not an experience. The same goes for vision and touch. If >>> a person is blind but can feel then they are sentient and do experience; >>> BUT a blind person or deaf person does not have the same perception as a >>> person who sees and hears well. >>> >>> ...Bill! >>> >>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >>> > >>> > So why is the experience of you different from someone who needs glasses, >>> > or a blind person? >>> > >>> > Which has the 'true' experience of the 'true' reality? >>> > >>> > Which is the true 'just this' when you have 3 different just thises? >>> > >>> > Edgar >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Jul 7, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Bill! wrote: >>> > >>> > > Edgar, >>> > > >>> > > Experience (awareness of the 'real world') is not dependent upon >>> > > eyeglasses, corneas or eyes. It is however dependent upon what we call >>> > > senses. If you were not sentient then you could not experience and >>> > > would have no awareness. >>> > > >>> > > There would be nothing. >>> > > >>> > > ...Bill! >>> > > >>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >>> > > > >>> > > > Panda, >>> > > > >>> > > > Good point. Which is the REAL world Bill. With or without glasses? >>> > > > With or without corneas? With or without eyes? >>> > > > >>> > > > After all reality does NOT consist of focused light images of >>> > > > 'things'.... >>> > > > >>> > > > Edgar >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:43 AM, pandabananasock wrote: >>> > > > >>> > > > > Are you wearing glasses right now? >>> > > > > Can you see the frames in your periphery? >>> > > > > Did you see them before I asked? >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> >> >> > > >
