Mike, There is no "our reality". There is only one reality. You can't define reality as YOU like. It is self defining...
Edgar On Jul 8, 2013, at 8:14 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Edgar, > > You still haven't answered. You seem to be far more interested in > metaphysical entanglements than reality. Like I said previously, reality has > many definitions, but the one that counts is the one that affects our mental > processes and how we respond to them. Trying to figure out whether an > external object is what you think it is is beside the point because It's > impossible to determine in all cases. However, how you react is real in 100% > of cases and how you react will determine whether you suffer, or not, from > that reaction. This is our reality. > > Mike > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: [email protected] <[email protected]>; > To: zen group <[email protected]>; > Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how plain > is that? > Sent: Mon, Jul 8, 2013 1:32:37 AM > > > Edgar, > > Seriously, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. How would I know if > it's a snake and not a piece of rope - especially if my reaction was to avoid > it believing it to be poisonous? What if i killed it believing it was a snake > I believed to be poisonous, but it turned out to be someone's harmless pet > snake? Again, my reactions are central - not what it actually is - if that is > all I have to go on at that time. They're all I have 'control' over. It's > really not a difficult point to grasp. > > Mike > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: [email protected] <[email protected]>; > To: <[email protected]>; > Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how plain > is that? > Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 10:39:57 PM > > > > you could try that, but it'd just be more of the same. > 10,000 things and counting... > > Hong > > > On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Edgar Owen <[email protected]> wrote: > > Mike, > > > OK, I finally managed to pick myself up off the floor! > > What difference does it make?????? > > OK, I hope I really have managed to stop laughing now..... > > Try stepping on a piece of rope and then a rattlesnake and maybe, just maybe, > you might understand the difference! > > Jeeeez.... > > Edgar > > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:44 AM, [email protected] wrote: > >> >> >> Edgar, >> >> Sorry, I'm not following. What difference does it make whether it's a snake >> or a piece of rope if thats what I sincerely perceive at the time? It's my >> reaction that is important. >> >> Mike >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> >> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; >> To: <[email protected]>; >> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how >> plain is that? >> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 2:25:37 PM >> >> >> Mike, >> >> >> Funny! Because Bill's (and now apparently your) "just this" at night would >> have been the snake that was really a piece of rope! >> >> That's why "just this" JUST doesn't cut it. I can imagine Bill at the magic >> show yelling "just this" as every illusion is performed believing they are >> all real because they are his direct experience! >> >> By claiming the immediate experience of "just this" is reality you mistake >> illusion for reality..... In the cases above it's obvious, but if you >> understand the biology of perception you understand it happens EVERY TIME.... >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:50 AM, [email protected] wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Edgar, >>> >>> There many gold standards for what reality is, but surely what we >>> experience as humans is all we have to go on? If I see a snake at night, >>> how I react at that time is far more important than in the morning >>> realising it was just a piece of old rope. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> >>> >>> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; >>> To: <[email protected]>; >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how >>> plain is that? >>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 1:29:39 PM >>> >>> >>> Bill, >>> >>> >>> The point is that Bill's "just this" is something produced by complex >>> sensory and cognitive processes. It does NOT correspond to raw reality as >>> he would have us believe. It's the RESULT of a very complex sequence of >>> processes. >>> >>> That's why Bill's just this is actually "just this ILLUSION mistaken for >>> reality".... >>> >>> True you don't experience reality like this. Because you ARE NOT >>> EXPERIENCING REALITY AT ALL! >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:14 AM, [email protected] wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Edgar, >>>> >>>> But you don't experience reality like that. Do you have to understand the >>>> endocrine system to take a pee? >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; >>>> To: <[email protected]>; >>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how >>>> plain is that? >>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 12:58:56 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> Bill, >>>> >>>> >>>> That's very bad biology. There are 3 general stages involved. Raw sensory >>>> experience which occurs separately in each different sense organ. There is >>>> considerable pre-processing there where eg. edges and motion are >>>> preferentially detected. 2nd there is perception in the optic lobes, 3rd >>>> the brain itself makes what is perceived into objects in the context of >>>> one's internal model of reality. >>>> >>>> You can't just make things up that are contrary to the way biology >>>> actually works... >>>> >>>> Edgar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Bill! wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Edgar, >>>>> >>>>> What's causing confusion is you continue to look at experience only from >>>>> a pluralistic POV. From a pluralistic POV there is a distinction between >>>>> sight, sound, taste, smell and touch. From a monistic POV there is no >>>>> distinction. It's just experience. Experience is only separated into the >>>>> different senses when pluralism arises along with perception. It's then >>>>> that you see, hear, taste, smell and touch. Before pluralism there is >>>>> just experience - Just THIS! >>>>> >>>>> It doesn't matter if my perception is different (worse or better - like >>>>> eyesight or hearing) than yours. For example blurry vision doesn't >>>>> produce a different experience than clear vision. The vision being blurry >>>>> or clear is a perception, not an experience. The same goes for vision and >>>>> touch. If a person is blind but can feel then they are sentient and do >>>>> experience; BUT a blind person or deaf person does not have the same >>>>> perception as a person who sees and hears well. >>>>> >>>>> ...Bill! >>>>> >>>>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > So why is the experience of you different from someone who needs >>>>> > glasses, or a blind person? >>>>> > >>>>> > Which has the 'true' experience of the 'true' reality? >>>>> > >>>>> > Which is the true 'just this' when you have 3 different just thises? >>>>> > >>>>> > Edgar >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Jul 7, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Bill! wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > > Edgar, >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Experience (awareness of the 'real world') is not dependent upon >>>>> > > eyeglasses, corneas or eyes. It is however dependent upon what we >>>>> > > call senses. If you were not sentient then you could not experience >>>>> > > and would have no awareness. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > There would be nothing. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > ...Bill! >>>>> > > >>>>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Panda, >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Good point. Which is the REAL world Bill. With or without glasses? >>>>> > > > With or without corneas? With or without eyes? >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > After all reality does NOT consist of focused light images of >>>>> > > > 'things'.... >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Edgar >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:43 AM, pandabananasock wrote: >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > > Are you wearing glasses right now? >>>>> > > > > Can you see the frames in your periphery? >>>>> > > > > Did you see them before I asked? >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >
