Mike, OK, I finally managed to pick myself up off the floor!
What difference does it make?????? OK, I hope I really have managed to stop laughing now..... Try stepping on a piece of rope and then a rattlesnake and maybe, just maybe, you might understand the difference! Jeeeez.... Edgar On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:44 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Edgar, > > Sorry, I'm not following. What difference does it make whether it's a snake > or a piece of rope if thats what I sincerely perceive at the time? It's my > reaction that is important. > > Mike > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; > To: <[email protected]>; > Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how plain > is that? > Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 2:25:37 PM > > > Mike, > > > Funny! Because Bill's (and now apparently your) "just this" at night would > have been the snake that was really a piece of rope! > > That's why "just this" JUST doesn't cut it. I can imagine Bill at the magic > show yelling "just this" as every illusion is performed believing they are > all real because they are his direct experience! > > By claiming the immediate experience of "just this" is reality you mistake > illusion for reality..... In the cases above it's obvious, but if you > understand the biology of perception you understand it happens EVERY TIME.... > > Edgar > > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:50 AM, [email protected] wrote: > >> >> Edgar, >> >> There many gold standards for what reality is, but surely what we experience >> as humans is all we have to go on? If I see a snake at night, how I react at >> that time is far more important than in the morning realising it was just a >> piece of old rope. >> >> Mike >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; >> To: <[email protected]>; >> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how >> plain is that? >> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 1:29:39 PM >> >> >> Bill, >> >> >> The point is that Bill's "just this" is something produced by complex >> sensory and cognitive processes. It does NOT correspond to raw reality as he >> would have us believe. It's the RESULT of a very complex sequence of >> processes. >> >> That's why Bill's just this is actually "just this ILLUSION mistaken for >> reality".... >> >> True you don't experience reality like this. Because you ARE NOT >> EXPERIENCING REALITY AT ALL! >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:14 AM, [email protected] wrote: >> >>> >>> Edgar, >>> >>> But you don't experience reality like that. Do you have to understand the >>> endocrine system to take a pee? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> >>> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; >>> To: <[email protected]>; >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how >>> plain is that? >>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 12:58:56 PM >>> >>> >>> Bill, >>> >>> >>> That's very bad biology. There are 3 general stages involved. Raw sensory >>> experience which occurs separately in each different sense organ. There is >>> considerable pre-processing there where eg. edges and motion are >>> preferentially detected. 2nd there is perception in the optic lobes, 3rd >>> the brain itself makes what is perceived into objects in the context of >>> one's internal model of reality. >>> >>> You can't just make things up that are contrary to the way biology actually >>> works... >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Bill! wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Edgar, >>>> >>>> What's causing confusion is you continue to look at experience only from a >>>> pluralistic POV. From a pluralistic POV there is a distinction between >>>> sight, sound, taste, smell and touch. From a monistic POV there is no >>>> distinction. It's just experience. Experience is only separated into the >>>> different senses when pluralism arises along with perception. It's then >>>> that you see, hear, taste, smell and touch. Before pluralism there is just >>>> experience - Just THIS! >>>> >>>> It doesn't matter if my perception is different (worse or better - like >>>> eyesight or hearing) than yours. For example blurry vision doesn't produce >>>> a different experience than clear vision. The vision being blurry or clear >>>> is a perception, not an experience. The same goes for vision and touch. If >>>> a person is blind but can feel then they are sentient and do experience; >>>> BUT a blind person or deaf person does not have the same perception as a >>>> person who sees and hears well. >>>> >>>> ...Bill! >>>> >>>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > So why is the experience of you different from someone who needs >>>> > glasses, or a blind person? >>>> > >>>> > Which has the 'true' experience of the 'true' reality? >>>> > >>>> > Which is the true 'just this' when you have 3 different just thises? >>>> > >>>> > Edgar >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Jul 7, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Bill! wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > Edgar, >>>> > > >>>> > > Experience (awareness of the 'real world') is not dependent upon >>>> > > eyeglasses, corneas or eyes. It is however dependent upon what we call >>>> > > senses. If you were not sentient then you could not experience and >>>> > > would have no awareness. >>>> > > >>>> > > There would be nothing. >>>> > > >>>> > > ...Bill! >>>> > > >>>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Panda, >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Good point. Which is the REAL world Bill. With or without glasses? >>>> > > > With or without corneas? With or without eyes? >>>> > > > >>>> > > > After all reality does NOT consist of focused light images of >>>> > > > 'things'.... >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Edgar >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:43 AM, pandabananasock wrote: >>>> > > > >>>> > > > > Are you wearing glasses right now? >>>> > > > > Can you see the frames in your periphery? >>>> > > > > Did you see them before I asked? >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > >
