Bill, So what's your "experience" of the rattlesnake you just stepped on thinking it was a rope that bit you?
Will you exclaim "just this" or will you call the ambulance? Which is real? Edgar On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:01 PM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > The experience of what you'd later call 'mistaking a rope for a snake' is an > act of perception. Your experience is not what alarms you, it's your > perception. > > It's the very same at a magic show. It's not experience that fools you, it's > your perception of experience that fools you; and that is a very good analogy > for EVERYTHING you perceive and believe - like scientific 'facts'. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Mike, > > > > Funny! Because Bill's (and now apparently your) "just this" at night would > > have been the snake that was really a piece of rope! > > > > That's why "just this" JUST doesn't cut it. I can imagine Bill at the magic > > show yelling "just this" as every illusion is performed believing they are > > all real because they are his direct experience! > > > > By claiming the immediate experience of "just this" is reality you mistake > > illusion for reality..... In the cases above it's obvious, but if you > > understand the biology of perception you understand it happens EVERY > > TIME.... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:50 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > There many gold standards for what reality is, but surely what we > > > experience as humans is all we have to go on? If I see a snake at night, > > > how I react at that time is far more important than in the morning > > > realising it was just a piece of old rope. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...>; > > > To: <[email protected]>; > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how > > > plain is that? > > > Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 1:29:39 PM > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > The point is that Bill's "just this" is something produced by complex > > > sensory and cognitive processes. It does NOT correspond to raw reality as > > > he would have us believe. It's the RESULT of a very complex sequence of > > > processes. > > > > > > That's why Bill's just this is actually "just this ILLUSION mistaken for > > > reality".... > > > > > > True you don't experience reality like this. Because you ARE NOT > > > EXPERIENCING REALITY AT ALL! > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:14 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> Edgar, > > >> > > >> But you don't experience reality like that. Do you have to understand > > >> the endocrine system to take a pee? > > >> > > >> Mike > > >> > > >> > > >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > >> > > >> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...>; > > >> To: <[email protected]>; > > >> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how > > >> plain is that? > > >> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 12:58:56 PM > > >> > > >> > > >> Bill, > > >> > > >> > > >> That's very bad biology. There are 3 general stages involved. Raw > > >> sensory experience which occurs separately in each different sense > > >> organ. There is considerable pre-processing there where eg. edges and > > >> motion are preferentially detected. 2nd there is perception in the optic > > >> lobes, 3rd the brain itself makes what is perceived into objects in the > > >> context of one's internal model of reality. > > >> > > >> You can't just make things up that are contrary to the way biology > > >> actually works... > > >> > > >> Edgar > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Jul 7, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Bill! wrote: > > >> > > >>> > > >>> Edgar, > > >>> > > >>> What's causing confusion is you continue to look at experience only > > >>> from a pluralistic POV. From a pluralistic POV there is a distinction > > >>> between sight, sound, taste, smell and touch. From a monistic POV there > > >>> is no distinction. It's just experience. Experience is only separated > > >>> into the different senses when pluralism arises along with perception. > > >>> It's then that you see, hear, taste, smell and touch. Before pluralism > > >>> there is just experience - Just THIS! > > >>> > > >>> It doesn't matter if my perception is different (worse or better - like > > >>> eyesight or hearing) than yours. For example blurry vision doesn't > > >>> produce a different experience than clear vision. The vision being > > >>> blurry or clear is a perception, not an experience. The same goes for > > >>> vision and touch. If a person is blind but can feel then they are > > >>> sentient and do experience; BUT a blind person or deaf person does not > > >>> have the same perception as a person who sees and hears well. > > >>> > > >>> ...Bill! > > >>> > > >>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > >>> > > > >>> > So why is the experience of you different from someone who needs > > >>> > glasses, or a blind person? > > >>> > > > >>> > Which has the 'true' experience of the 'true' reality? > > >>> > > > >>> > Which is the true 'just this' when you have 3 different just thises? > > >>> > > > >>> > Edgar > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > On Jul 7, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Bill! wrote: > > >>> > > > >>> > > Edgar, > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Experience (awareness of the 'real world') is not dependent upon > > >>> > > eyeglasses, corneas or eyes. It is however dependent upon what we > > >>> > > call senses. If you were not sentient then you could not experience > > >>> > > and would have no awareness. > > >>> > > > > >>> > > There would be nothing. > > >>> > > > > >>> > > ...Bill! > > >>> > > > > >>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > Panda, > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > Good point. Which is the REAL world Bill. With or without > > >>> > > > glasses? With or without corneas? With or without eyes? > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > After all reality does NOT consist of focused light images of > > >>> > > > 'things'.... > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > Edgar > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:43 AM, pandabananasock wrote: > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > Are you wearing glasses right now? > > >>> > > > > Can you see the frames in your periphery? > > >>> > > > > Did you see them before I asked? > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
