Edgar, My experience in that instance would have been Just THIS!
My perception would have been pain, snake, rattlesnake, fear, etc... I would call 911 and then administer first aid which might include applying a tourniquet. The experience is real. All the perceptions are delusions. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > So what's your "experience" of the rattlesnake you just stepped on thinking > it was a rope that bit you? > > Will you exclaim "just this" or will you call the ambulance? > > Which is real? > > Edgar > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:01 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > The experience of what you'd later call 'mistaking a rope for a snake' is > > an act of perception. Your experience is not what alarms you, it's your > > perception. > > > > It's the very same at a magic show. It's not experience that fools you, > > it's your perception of experience that fools you; and that is a very good > > analogy for EVERYTHING you perceive and believe - like scientific 'facts'. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > Funny! Because Bill's (and now apparently your) "just this" at night > > > would have been the snake that was really a piece of rope! > > > > > > That's why "just this" JUST doesn't cut it. I can imagine Bill at the > > > magic show yelling "just this" as every illusion is performed believing > > > they are all real because they are his direct experience! > > > > > > By claiming the immediate experience of "just this" is reality you > > > mistake illusion for reality..... In the cases above it's obvious, but if > > > you understand the biology of perception you understand it happens EVERY > > > TIME.... > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:50 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > There many gold standards for what reality is, but surely what we > > > > experience as humans is all we have to go on? If I see a snake at > > > > night, how I react at that time is far more important than in the > > > > morning realising it was just a piece of old rope. > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>; > > > > To: <[email protected]>; > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how > > > > plain is that? > > > > Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 1:29:39 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is that Bill's "just this" is something produced by complex > > > > sensory and cognitive processes. It does NOT correspond to raw reality > > > > as he would have us believe. It's the RESULT of a very complex sequence > > > > of processes. > > > > > > > > That's why Bill's just this is actually "just this ILLUSION mistaken > > > > for reality".... > > > > > > > > True you don't experience reality like this. Because you ARE NOT > > > > EXPERIENCING REALITY AT ALL! > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:14 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Edgar, > > > >> > > > >> But you don't experience reality like that. Do you have to understand > > > >> the endocrine system to take a pee? > > > >> > > > >> Mike > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > >> > > > >> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>; > > > >> To: <[email protected]>; > > > >> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but > > > >> how plain is that? > > > >> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 12:58:56 PM > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Bill, > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> That's very bad biology. There are 3 general stages involved. Raw > > > >> sensory experience which occurs separately in each different sense > > > >> organ. There is considerable pre-processing there where eg. edges and > > > >> motion are preferentially detected. 2nd there is perception in the > > > >> optic lobes, 3rd the brain itself makes what is perceived into objects > > > >> in the context of one's internal model of reality. > > > >> > > > >> You can't just make things up that are contrary to the way biology > > > >> actually works... > > > >> > > > >> Edgar > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Jul 7, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >>> Edgar, > > > >>> > > > >>> What's causing confusion is you continue to look at experience only > > > >>> from a pluralistic POV. From a pluralistic POV there is a distinction > > > >>> between sight, sound, taste, smell and touch. From a monistic POV > > > >>> there is no distinction. It's just experience. Experience is only > > > >>> separated into the different senses when pluralism arises along with > > > >>> perception. It's then that you see, hear, taste, smell and touch. > > > >>> Before pluralism there is just experience - Just THIS! > > > >>> > > > >>> It doesn't matter if my perception is different (worse or better - > > > >>> like eyesight or hearing) than yours. For example blurry vision > > > >>> doesn't produce a different experience than clear vision. The vision > > > >>> being blurry or clear is a perception, not an experience. The same > > > >>> goes for vision and touch. If a person is blind but can feel then > > > >>> they are sentient and do experience; BUT a blind person or deaf > > > >>> person does not have the same perception as a person who sees and > > > >>> hears well. > > > >>> > > > >>> ...Bill! > > > >>> > > > >>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > >>> > > > > >>> > So why is the experience of you different from someone who needs > > > >>> > glasses, or a blind person? > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Which has the 'true' experience of the 'true' reality? > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Which is the true 'just this' when you have 3 different just thises? > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Edgar > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > On Jul 7, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Edgar, > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > Experience (awareness of the 'real world') is not dependent upon > > > >>> > > eyeglasses, corneas or eyes. It is however dependent upon what we > > > >>> > > call senses. If you were not sentient then you could not > > > >>> > > experience and would have no awareness. > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > There would be nothing. > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > ...Bill! > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > Panda, > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > Good point. Which is the REAL world Bill. With or without > > > >>> > > > glasses? With or without corneas? With or without eyes? > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > After all reality does NOT consist of focused light images of > > > >>> > > > 'things'.... > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > Edgar > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:43 AM, pandabananasock wrote: > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > Are you wearing glasses right now? > > > >>> > > > > Can you see the frames in your periphery? > > > >>> > > > > Did you see them before I asked? > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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