Edgar, The experience of what you'd later call 'mistaking a rope for a snake' is an act of perception. Your experience is not what alarms you, it's your perception.
It's the very same at a magic show. It's not experience that fools you, it's your perception of experience that fools you; and that is a very good analogy for EVERYTHING you perceive and believe - like scientific 'facts'. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Mike, > > Funny! Because Bill's (and now apparently your) "just this" at night would > have been the snake that was really a piece of rope! > > That's why "just this" JUST doesn't cut it. I can imagine Bill at the magic > show yelling "just this" as every illusion is performed believing they are > all real because they are his direct experience! > > By claiming the immediate experience of "just this" is reality you mistake > illusion for reality..... In the cases above it's obvious, but if you > understand the biology of perception you understand it happens EVERY TIME.... > > Edgar > > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:50 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > There many gold standards for what reality is, but surely what we > > experience as humans is all we have to go on? If I see a snake at night, > > how I react at that time is far more important than in the morning > > realising it was just a piece of old rope. > > > > Mike > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...>; > > To: <[email protected]>; > > Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how > > plain is that? > > Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 1:29:39 PM > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > The point is that Bill's "just this" is something produced by complex > > sensory and cognitive processes. It does NOT correspond to raw reality as > > he would have us believe. It's the RESULT of a very complex sequence of > > processes. > > > > That's why Bill's just this is actually "just this ILLUSION mistaken for > > reality".... > > > > True you don't experience reality like this. Because you ARE NOT > > EXPERIENCING REALITY AT ALL! > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:14 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > > >> > >> Edgar, > >> > >> But you don't experience reality like that. Do you have to understand the > >> endocrine system to take a pee? > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> > >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > >> > >> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...>; > >> To: <[email protected]>; > >> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how > >> plain is that? > >> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 12:58:56 PM > >> > >> > >> Bill, > >> > >> > >> That's very bad biology. There are 3 general stages involved. Raw sensory > >> experience which occurs separately in each different sense organ. There is > >> considerable pre-processing there where eg. edges and motion are > >> preferentially detected. 2nd there is perception in the optic lobes, 3rd > >> the brain itself makes what is perceived into objects in the context of > >> one's internal model of reality. > >> > >> You can't just make things up that are contrary to the way biology > >> actually works... > >> > >> Edgar > >> > >> > >> > >> On Jul 7, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Bill! wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> Edgar, > >>> > >>> What's causing confusion is you continue to look at experience only from > >>> a pluralistic POV. From a pluralistic POV there is a distinction between > >>> sight, sound, taste, smell and touch. From a monistic POV there is no > >>> distinction. It's just experience. Experience is only separated into the > >>> different senses when pluralism arises along with perception. It's then > >>> that you see, hear, taste, smell and touch. Before pluralism there is > >>> just experience - Just THIS! > >>> > >>> It doesn't matter if my perception is different (worse or better - like > >>> eyesight or hearing) than yours. For example blurry vision doesn't > >>> produce a different experience than clear vision. The vision being blurry > >>> or clear is a perception, not an experience. The same goes for vision and > >>> touch. If a person is blind but can feel then they are sentient and do > >>> experience; BUT a blind person or deaf person does not have the same > >>> perception as a person who sees and hears well. > >>> > >>> ...Bill! > >>> > >>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >>> > > >>> > So why is the experience of you different from someone who needs > >>> > glasses, or a blind person? > >>> > > >>> > Which has the 'true' experience of the 'true' reality? > >>> > > >>> > Which is the true 'just this' when you have 3 different just thises? > >>> > > >>> > Edgar > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On Jul 7, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Bill! wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > Edgar, > >>> > > > >>> > > Experience (awareness of the 'real world') is not dependent upon > >>> > > eyeglasses, corneas or eyes. It is however dependent upon what we > >>> > > call senses. If you were not sentient then you could not experience > >>> > > and would have no awareness. > >>> > > > >>> > > There would be nothing. > >>> > > > >>> > > ...Bill! > >>> > > > >>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Panda, > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Good point. Which is the REAL world Bill. With or without glasses? > >>> > > > With or without corneas? With or without eyes? > >>> > > > > >>> > > > After all reality does NOT consist of focused light images of > >>> > > > 'things'.... > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Edgar > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:43 AM, pandabananasock wrote: > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > Are you wearing glasses right now? > >>> > > > > Can you see the frames in your periphery? > >>> > > > > Did you see them before I asked? > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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