Edgar, I understand why you think my POV (and maybe the Buddhist/zen POV also) is 'solipsism', but there is an importance difference which you are ignoring.
'Solipsism' in every definition I've read includes a focus on a belief in a 'self', in fact an exclusive belief in 'self'. Here is just one example: "a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own modifications and that the self is the only existent thing; also: extreme ." - Merriam-Webster Online My POV (and what I believe to be the POV of all zen teachings) is the 'self' is delusive. My POV does not focus on the 'self' and claim it is the only existent thing. My POV focuses on experience (sensory, monisitic) and denies the existence of a 'self' - except as a delusion. I'd be willing to read other definitions of 'solipsism' or hear your own definition that convinces you that the gist of what I've been saying is an example of 'solipsism'. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Mike, > > PS, I agree it is the "Buddhist line" that I've been defending against Bill's > solipsism ad infinitum.. > > Edgar > > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 10:23 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > When have you ever said that?? Btw, ego has nothing to do with my stance. > > I've been stating the Buddhist line ever since I've been here and you've > > just about disagreed with everything I've ever said (or just got basic > > Buddhist principles plain wrong). > > > > Mike > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...>; > > To: <[email protected]>; > > Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how > > plain is that? > > Sent: Tue, Jul 9, 2013 1:28:51 PM > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > Funny. That's exactly what I said so why are you "completely disagreeing > > with me"? > > > > I suspect just because your ego insists you have to preserve itself? > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 8:26 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > > >> > >> Edgar, > >> > >> I think you'll find that I've been arguing here that "just THIS!" isn't > >> really the full picture. But anyway, I completely disagree with you. Yes, > >> there is an ultimate reality, but that reality can only be known > >> subjectively. That's why my iPad creates sensations for me, but absolutely > >> none for you. This is why Buddha taught that reality can only be known > >> within "this fathom long body". If someone shows Dave and John a picture > >> of a nude woman they will both have totally different reactions to it > >> depending on a multitude of personal factors. The photo stays the same, > >> but the reactions are what counts. > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> > >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > >> > >> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...>; > >> To: <[email protected]>; > >> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how > >> plain is that? > >> Sent: Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:09:41 PM > >> > >> > >> Mike, > >> > >> > >> That is your local perception of reality. Obviously you and I perceive > >> reality quite differently. But it's the same reality we both perceive.... > >> > >> You can't just define your own reality. That leads to all sorts of > >> inconsistencies and delusions... > >> > >> That's another reason that Bill and your "just this" just doesn't cut it. > >> All experience is always mediated and processed by one's internal > >> biological and cognitive structure. Thinking that "just this" is somehow > >> direct perception of actual external reality is just not true. That's > >> exhaustively proven biological and physical fact. Doesn't matter how > >> enlightened you may or may not be... > >> > >> > >> Edgar > >> > >> > >> > >> On Jul 9, 2013, at 7:55 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> Edgar, > >>> > >>> How about a bat or an ant? Plus, my reality is different to yours. This > >>> iPad in front of me creates many sensations and perceptions, yet for you > >>> it doesn't exist. But my previous point is that you can't know if > >>> something is what you perceive it to be. The perception is more crucial > >>> than the apparent reality of what it is (eg the snake and rope). > >>> > >>> Mike > >>> > >>> > >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > >>> > >>> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...>; > >>> To: <[email protected]>; > >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how > >>> plain is that? > >>> Sent: Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:35:42 AM > >>> > >>> > >>> Mike, > >>> > >>> > >>> There is no "our reality". There is only one reality. You can't define > >>> reality as YOU like. It is self defining... > >>> > >>> Edgar > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 8:14 PM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Edgar, > >>>> > >>>> You still haven't answered. You seem to be far more interested in > >>>> metaphysical entanglements than reality. Like I said previously, reality > >>>> has many definitions, but the one that counts is the one that affects > >>>> our mental processes and how we respond to them. Trying to figure out > >>>> whether an external object is what you think it is is beside the point > >>>> because It's impossible to determine in all cases. However, how you > >>>> react is real in 100% of cases and how you react will determine whether > >>>> you suffer, or not, from that reaction. This is our reality. > >>>> > >>>> Mike > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > >>>> > >>>> From: uerusuboyo@... <uerusuboyo@...>; > >>>> To: zen group <[email protected]>; > >>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how > >>>> plain is that? > >>>> Sent: Mon, Jul 8, 2013 1:32:37 AM > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Edgar, > >>>> > >>>> Seriously, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. How would I > >>>> know if it's a snake and not a piece of rope - especially if my reaction > >>>> was to avoid it believing it to be poisonous? What if i killed it > >>>> believing it was a snake I believed to be poisonous, but it turned out > >>>> to be someone's harmless pet snake? Again, my reactions are central - > >>>> not what it actually is - if that is all I have to go on at that time. > >>>> They're all I have 'control' over. It's really not a difficult point to > >>>> grasp. > >>>> > >>>> Mike > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > >>>> > >>>> From: yonyonson@... <yonyonson@...>; > >>>> To: <[email protected]>; > >>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how > >>>> plain is that? > >>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 10:39:57 PM > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> you could try that, but it'd just be more of the same. > >>>> 10,000 things and counting... > >>>> > >>>> Hong > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Mike, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> OK, I finally managed to pick myself up off the floor! > >>>> > >>>> What difference does it make?????? > >>>> > >>>> OK, I hope I really have managed to stop laughing now..... > >>>> > >>>> Try stepping on a piece of rope and then a rattlesnake and maybe, just > >>>> maybe, you might understand the difference! > >>>> > >>>> Jeeeez.... > >>>> > >>>> Edgar > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:44 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Edgar, > >>>>> > >>>>> Sorry, I'm not following. What difference does it make whether it's a > >>>>> snake or a piece of rope if thats what I sincerely perceive at the > >>>>> time? It's my reaction that is important. > >>>>> > >>>>> Mike > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...>; > >>>>> To: <[email protected]>; > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how > >>>>> plain is that? > >>>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 2:25:37 PM > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Mike, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Funny! Because Bill's (and now apparently your) "just this" at night > >>>>> would have been the snake that was really a piece of rope! > >>>>> > >>>>> That's why "just this" JUST doesn't cut it. I can imagine Bill at the > >>>>> magic show yelling "just this" as every illusion is performed believing > >>>>> they are all real because they are his direct experience! > >>>>> > >>>>> By claiming the immediate experience of "just this" is reality you > >>>>> mistake illusion for reality..... In the cases above it's obvious, but > >>>>> if you understand the biology of perception you understand it happens > >>>>> EVERY TIME.... > >>>>> > >>>>> Edgar > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:50 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Edgar, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There many gold standards for what reality is, but surely what we > >>>>>> experience as humans is all we have to go on? If I see a snake at > >>>>>> night, how I react at that time is far more important than in the > >>>>>> morning realising it was just a piece of old rope. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mike > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...>; > >>>>>> To: <[email protected]>; > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but > >>>>>> how plain is that? > >>>>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 1:29:39 PM > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Bill, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The point is that Bill's "just this" is something produced by complex > >>>>>> sensory and cognitive processes. It does NOT correspond to raw reality > >>>>>> as he would have us believe. It's the RESULT of a very complex > >>>>>> sequence of processes. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> That's why Bill's just this is actually "just this ILLUSION mistaken > >>>>>> for reality".... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> True you don't experience reality like this. Because you ARE NOT > >>>>>> EXPERIENCING REALITY AT ALL! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Edgar > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:14 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Edgar, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> But you don't experience reality like that. Do you have to understand > >>>>>>> the endocrine system to take a pee? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Mike > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...>; > >>>>>>> To: <[email protected]>; > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but > >>>>>>> how plain is that? > >>>>>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 12:58:56 PM > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Bill, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> That's very bad biology. There are 3 general stages involved. Raw > >>>>>>> sensory experience which occurs separately in each different sense > >>>>>>> organ. There is considerable pre-processing there where eg. edges and > >>>>>>> motion are preferentially detected. 2nd there is perception in the > >>>>>>> optic lobes, 3rd the brain itself makes what is perceived into > >>>>>>> objects in the context of one's internal model of reality. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> You can't just make things up that are contrary to the way biology > >>>>>>> actually works... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Edgar > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Bill! wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Edgar, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> What's causing confusion is you continue to look at experience only > >>>>>>>> from a pluralistic POV. From a pluralistic POV there is a > >>>>>>>> distinction between sight, sound, taste, smell and touch. From a > >>>>>>>> monistic POV there is no distinction. It's just experience. > >>>>>>>> Experience is only separated into the different senses when > >>>>>>>> pluralism arises along with perception. It's then that you see, > >>>>>>>> hear, taste, smell and touch. Before pluralism there is just > >>>>>>>> experience - Just THIS! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It doesn't matter if my perception is different (worse or better - > >>>>>>>> like eyesight or hearing) than yours. For example blurry vision > >>>>>>>> doesn't produce a different experience than clear vision. The vision > >>>>>>>> being blurry or clear is a perception, not an experience. The same > >>>>>>>> goes for vision and touch. If a person is blind but can feel then > >>>>>>>> they are sentient and do experience; BUT a blind person or deaf > >>>>>>>> person does not have the same perception as a person who sees and > >>>>>>>> hears well. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ...Bill! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > So why is the experience of you different from someone who needs > >>>>>>>> > glasses, or a blind person? > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > Which has the 'true' experience of the 'true' reality? > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > Which is the true 'just this' when you have 3 different just > >>>>>>>> > thises? > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > Edgar > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > On Jul 7, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Bill! wrote: > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > Edgar, > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > Experience (awareness of the 'real world') is not dependent upon > >>>>>>>> > > eyeglasses, corneas or eyes. It is however dependent upon what > >>>>>>>> > > we call senses. If you were not sentient then you could not > >>>>>>>> > > experience and would have no awareness. > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > There would be nothing. > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > ...Bill! > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > Panda, > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > Good point. Which is the REAL world Bill. With or without > >>>>>>>> > > > glasses? With or without corneas? With or without eyes? > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > After all reality does NOT consist of focused light images of > >>>>>>>> > > > 'things'.... > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > Edgar > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:43 AM, pandabananasock wrote: > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > Are you wearing glasses right now? > >>>>>>>> > > > > Can you see the frames in your periphery? > >>>>>>>> > > > > Did you see them before I asked? > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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