Mike, PS, I agree it is the "Buddhist line" that I've been defending against Bill's solipsism ad infinitum..
Edgar On Jul 9, 2013, at 10:23 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Edgar, > > When have you ever said that?? Btw, ego has nothing to do with my stance. > I've been stating the Buddhist line ever since I've been here and you've just > about disagreed with everything I've ever said (or just got basic Buddhist > principles plain wrong). > > Mike > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; > To: <[email protected]>; > Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how plain > is that? > Sent: Tue, Jul 9, 2013 1:28:51 PM > > > Mike, > > > Funny. That's exactly what I said so why are you "completely disagreeing with > me"? > > I suspect just because your ego insists you have to preserve itself? > > Edgar > > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 8:26 AM, [email protected] wrote: > >> >> Edgar, >> >> I think you'll find that I've been arguing here that "just THIS!" isn't >> really the full picture. But anyway, I completely disagree with you. Yes, >> there is an ultimate reality, but that reality can only be known >> subjectively. That's why my iPad creates sensations for me, but absolutely >> none for you. This is why Buddha taught that reality can only be known >> within "this fathom long body". If someone shows Dave and John a picture of >> a nude woman they will both have totally different reactions to it depending >> on a multitude of personal factors. The photo stays the same, but the >> reactions are what counts. >> >> Mike >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; >> To: <[email protected]>; >> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how >> plain is that? >> Sent: Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:09:41 PM >> >> >> Mike, >> >> >> That is your local perception of reality. Obviously you and I perceive >> reality quite differently. But it's the same reality we both perceive.... >> >> You can't just define your own reality. That leads to all sorts of >> inconsistencies and delusions... >> >> That's another reason that Bill and your "just this" just doesn't cut it. >> All experience is always mediated and processed by one's internal biological >> and cognitive structure. Thinking that "just this" is somehow direct >> perception of actual external reality is just not true. That's exhaustively >> proven biological and physical fact. Doesn't matter how enlightened you may >> or may not be... >> >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Jul 9, 2013, at 7:55 AM, [email protected] wrote: >> >>> >>> Edgar, >>> >>> How about a bat or an ant? Plus, my reality is different to yours. This >>> iPad in front of me creates many sensations and perceptions, yet for you it >>> doesn't exist. But my previous point is that you can't know if something is >>> what you perceive it to be. The perception is more crucial than the >>> apparent reality of what it is (eg the snake and rope). >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> >>> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; >>> To: <[email protected]>; >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how >>> plain is that? >>> Sent: Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:35:42 AM >>> >>> >>> Mike, >>> >>> >>> There is no "our reality". There is only one reality. You can't define >>> reality as YOU like. It is self defining... >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 8:14 PM, [email protected] wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Edgar, >>>> >>>> You still haven't answered. You seem to be far more interested in >>>> metaphysical entanglements than reality. Like I said previously, reality >>>> has many definitions, but the one that counts is the one that affects our >>>> mental processes and how we respond to them. Trying to figure out whether >>>> an external object is what you think it is is beside the point because >>>> It's impossible to determine in all cases. However, how you react is real >>>> in 100% of cases and how you react will determine whether you suffer, or >>>> not, from that reaction. This is our reality. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>> >>>> From: [email protected] <[email protected]>; >>>> To: zen group <[email protected]>; >>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how >>>> plain is that? >>>> Sent: Mon, Jul 8, 2013 1:32:37 AM >>>> >>>> >>>> Edgar, >>>> >>>> Seriously, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. How would I know >>>> if it's a snake and not a piece of rope - especially if my reaction was to >>>> avoid it believing it to be poisonous? What if i killed it believing it >>>> was a snake I believed to be poisonous, but it turned out to be someone's >>>> harmless pet snake? Again, my reactions are central - not what it actually >>>> is - if that is all I have to go on at that time. They're all I have >>>> 'control' over. It's really not a difficult point to grasp. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>> >>>> From: [email protected] <[email protected]>; >>>> To: <[email protected]>; >>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how >>>> plain is that? >>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 10:39:57 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> you could try that, but it'd just be more of the same. >>>> 10,000 things and counting... >>>> >>>> Hong >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Edgar Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Mike, >>>> >>>> >>>> OK, I finally managed to pick myself up off the floor! >>>> >>>> What difference does it make?????? >>>> >>>> OK, I hope I really have managed to stop laughing now..... >>>> >>>> Try stepping on a piece of rope and then a rattlesnake and maybe, just >>>> maybe, you might understand the difference! >>>> >>>> Jeeeez.... >>>> >>>> Edgar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:44 AM, [email protected] wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Edgar, >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, I'm not following. What difference does it make whether it's a >>>>> snake or a piece of rope if thats what I sincerely perceive at the time? >>>>> It's my reaction that is important. >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; >>>>> To: <[email protected]>; >>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how >>>>> plain is that? >>>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 2:25:37 PM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Funny! Because Bill's (and now apparently your) "just this" at night >>>>> would have been the snake that was really a piece of rope! >>>>> >>>>> That's why "just this" JUST doesn't cut it. I can imagine Bill at the >>>>> magic show yelling "just this" as every illusion is performed believing >>>>> they are all real because they are his direct experience! >>>>> >>>>> By claiming the immediate experience of "just this" is reality you >>>>> mistake illusion for reality..... In the cases above it's obvious, but if >>>>> you understand the biology of perception you understand it happens EVERY >>>>> TIME.... >>>>> >>>>> Edgar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:50 AM, [email protected] wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Edgar, >>>>>> >>>>>> There many gold standards for what reality is, but surely what we >>>>>> experience as humans is all we have to go on? If I see a snake at night, >>>>>> how I react at that time is far more important than in the morning >>>>>> realising it was just a piece of old rope. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; >>>>>> To: <[email protected]>; >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how >>>>>> plain is that? >>>>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 1:29:39 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The point is that Bill's "just this" is something produced by complex >>>>>> sensory and cognitive processes. It does NOT correspond to raw reality >>>>>> as he would have us believe. It's the RESULT of a very complex sequence >>>>>> of processes. >>>>>> >>>>>> That's why Bill's just this is actually "just this ILLUSION mistaken for >>>>>> reality".... >>>>>> >>>>>> True you don't experience reality like this. Because you ARE NOT >>>>>> EXPERIENCING REALITY AT ALL! >>>>>> >>>>>> Edgar >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:14 AM, [email protected] wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Edgar, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But you don't experience reality like that. Do you have to understand >>>>>>> the endocrine system to take a pee? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; >>>>>>> To: <[email protected]>; >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how >>>>>>> plain is that? >>>>>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 12:58:56 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bill, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's very bad biology. There are 3 general stages involved. Raw >>>>>>> sensory experience which occurs separately in each different sense >>>>>>> organ. There is considerable pre-processing there where eg. edges and >>>>>>> motion are preferentially detected. 2nd there is perception in the >>>>>>> optic lobes, 3rd the brain itself makes what is perceived into objects >>>>>>> in the context of one's internal model of reality. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can't just make things up that are contrary to the way biology >>>>>>> actually works... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Edgar >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Bill! wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Edgar, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's causing confusion is you continue to look at experience only >>>>>>>> from a pluralistic POV. From a pluralistic POV there is a distinction >>>>>>>> between sight, sound, taste, smell and touch. From a monistic POV >>>>>>>> there is no distinction. It's just experience. Experience is only >>>>>>>> separated into the different senses when pluralism arises along with >>>>>>>> perception. It's then that you see, hear, taste, smell and touch. >>>>>>>> Before pluralism there is just experience - Just THIS! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It doesn't matter if my perception is different (worse or better - >>>>>>>> like eyesight or hearing) than yours. For example blurry vision >>>>>>>> doesn't produce a different experience than clear vision. The vision >>>>>>>> being blurry or clear is a perception, not an experience. The same >>>>>>>> goes for vision and touch. If a person is blind but can feel then they >>>>>>>> are sentient and do experience; BUT a blind person or deaf person does >>>>>>>> not have the same perception as a person who sees and hears well. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ...Bill! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > So why is the experience of you different from someone who needs >>>>>>>> > glasses, or a blind person? >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Which has the 'true' experience of the 'true' reality? >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Which is the true 'just this' when you have 3 different just thises? >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Edgar >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > On Jul 7, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Bill! wrote: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > > Edgar, >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > Experience (awareness of the 'real world') is not dependent upon >>>>>>>> > > eyeglasses, corneas or eyes. It is however dependent upon what we >>>>>>>> > > call senses. If you were not sentient then you could not >>>>>>>> > > experience and would have no awareness. >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > There would be nothing. >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > ...Bill! >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > Panda, >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > Good point. Which is the REAL world Bill. With or without >>>>>>>> > > > glasses? With or without corneas? With or without eyes? >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > After all reality does NOT consist of focused light images of >>>>>>>> > > > 'things'.... >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > Edgar >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:43 AM, pandabananasock wrote: >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > Are you wearing glasses right now? >>>>>>>> > > > > Can you see the frames in your periphery? >>>>>>>> > > > > Did you see them before I asked? >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > >
