Edgar, Good question!
Experience (as I define it - monistic) is just experience - Just THIS! Since it is monistic there is not a pluralism of me, you, the dog, the rabbit, etc... Perception is dualistic/pluralistic. Each intellect that creates the delusion of dualism/pluralism creates its own perception. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > Then 'whose' experience is it? And whose perception is it that arises in > "your" mind if not your self's? > > Edgar > > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 9:43 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > I understand why you think my POV (and maybe the Buddhist/zen POV also) is > > 'solipsism', but there is an importance difference which you are ignoring. > > > > 'Solipsism' in every definition I've read includes a focus on a belief in a > > 'self', in fact an exclusive belief in 'self'. Here is just one example: > > > > "a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own modifications > > and that the self is the only existent thing; also: extreme ." - > > Merriam-Webster Online > > > > My POV (and what I believe to be the POV of all zen teachings) is the > > 'self' is delusive. My POV does not focus on the 'self' and claim it is the > > only existent thing. My POV focuses on experience (sensory, monisitic) and > > denies the existence of a 'self' - except as a delusion. > > > > I'd be willing to read other definitions of 'solipsism' or hear your own > > definition that convinces you that the gist of what I've been saying is an > > example of 'solipsism'. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > PS, I agree it is the "Buddhist line" that I've been defending against > > > Bill's solipsism ad infinitum.. > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 10:23 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > When have you ever said that?? Btw, ego has nothing to do with my > > > > stance. I've been stating the Buddhist line ever since I've been here > > > > and you've just about disagreed with everything I've ever said (or just > > > > got basic Buddhist principles plain wrong). > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > > > > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>; > > > > To: <[email protected]>; > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but how > > > > plain is that? > > > > Sent: Tue, Jul 9, 2013 1:28:51 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > > Funny. That's exactly what I said so why are you "completely > > > > disagreeing with me"? > > > > > > > > I suspect just because your ego insists you have to preserve itself? > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 8:26 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Edgar, > > > >> > > > >> I think you'll find that I've been arguing here that "just THIS!" > > > >> isn't really the full picture. But anyway, I completely disagree with > > > >> you. Yes, there is an ultimate reality, but that reality can only be > > > >> known subjectively. That's why my iPad creates sensations for me, but > > > >> absolutely none for you. This is why Buddha taught that reality can > > > >> only be known within "this fathom long body". If someone shows Dave > > > >> and John a picture of a nude woman they will both have totally > > > >> different reactions to it depending on a multitude of personal > > > >> factors. The photo stays the same, but the reactions are what counts. > > > >> > > > >> Mike > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > >> > > > >> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>; > > > >> To: <[email protected]>; > > > >> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but > > > >> how plain is that? > > > >> Sent: Tue, Jul 9, 2013 12:09:41 PM > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Mike, > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> That is your local perception of reality. Obviously you and I perceive > > > >> reality quite differently. But it's the same reality we both > > > >> perceive.... > > > >> > > > >> You can't just define your own reality. That leads to all sorts of > > > >> inconsistencies and delusions... > > > >> > > > >> That's another reason that Bill and your "just this" just doesn't cut > > > >> it. All experience is always mediated and processed by one's internal > > > >> biological and cognitive structure. Thinking that "just this" is > > > >> somehow direct perception of actual external reality is just not true. > > > >> That's exhaustively proven biological and physical fact. Doesn't > > > >> matter how enlightened you may or may not be... > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Edgar > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Jul 9, 2013, at 7:55 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >>> Edgar, > > > >>> > > > >>> How about a bat or an ant? Plus, my reality is different to yours. > > > >>> This iPad in front of me creates many sensations and perceptions, yet > > > >>> for you it doesn't exist. But my previous point is that you can't > > > >>> know if something is what you perceive it to be. The perception is > > > >>> more crucial than the apparent reality of what it is (eg the snake > > > >>> and rope). > > > >>> > > > >>> Mike > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > >>> > > > >>> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>; > > > >>> To: <[email protected]>; > > > >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but > > > >>> how plain is that? > > > >>> Sent: Tue, Jul 9, 2013 11:35:42 AM > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Mike, > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> There is no "our reality". There is only one reality. You can't > > > >>> define reality as YOU like. It is self defining... > > > >>> > > > >>> Edgar > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> On Jul 8, 2013, at 8:14 PM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Edgar, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> You still haven't answered. You seem to be far more interested in > > > >>>> metaphysical entanglements than reality. Like I said previously, > > > >>>> reality has many definitions, but the one that counts is the one > > > >>>> that affects our mental processes and how we respond to them. Trying > > > >>>> to figure out whether an external object is what you think it is is > > > >>>> beside the point because It's impossible to determine in all cases. > > > >>>> However, how you react is real in 100% of cases and how you react > > > >>>> will determine whether you suffer, or not, from that reaction. This > > > >>>> is our reality. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Mike > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > >>>> > > > >>>> From: uerusuboyo@ <uerusuboyo@>; > > > >>>> To: zen group <[email protected]>; > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but > > > >>>> how plain is that? > > > >>>> Sent: Mon, Jul 8, 2013 1:32:37 AM > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Edgar, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Seriously, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. How would > > > >>>> I know if it's a snake and not a piece of rope - especially if my > > > >>>> reaction was to avoid it believing it to be poisonous? What if i > > > >>>> killed it believing it was a snake I believed to be poisonous, but > > > >>>> it turned out to be someone's harmless pet snake? Again, my > > > >>>> reactions are central - not what it actually is - if that is all I > > > >>>> have to go on at that time. They're all I have 'control' over. It's > > > >>>> really not a difficult point to grasp. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Mike > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > >>>> > > > >>>> From: yonyonson@ <yonyonson@>; > > > >>>> To: <[email protected]>; > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but > > > >>>> how plain is that? > > > >>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 10:39:57 PM > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> you could try that, but it'd just be more of the same. > > > >>>> 10,000 things and counting... > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Hong > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Mike, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> OK, I finally managed to pick myself up off the floor! > > > >>>> > > > >>>> What difference does it make?????? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> OK, I hope I really have managed to stop laughing now..... > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Try stepping on a piece of rope and then a rattlesnake and maybe, > > > >>>> just maybe, you might understand the difference! > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Jeeeez.... > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Edgar > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 10:44 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Edgar, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Sorry, I'm not following. What difference does it make whether it's > > > >>>>> a snake or a piece of rope if thats what I sincerely perceive at > > > >>>>> the time? It's my reaction that is important. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Mike > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>; > > > >>>>> To: <[email protected]>; > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... but > > > >>>>> how plain is that? > > > >>>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 2:25:37 PM > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Mike, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Funny! Because Bill's (and now apparently your) "just this" at > > > >>>>> night would have been the snake that was really a piece of rope! > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> That's why "just this" JUST doesn't cut it. I can imagine Bill at > > > >>>>> the magic show yelling "just this" as every illusion is performed > > > >>>>> believing they are all real because they are his direct experience! > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> By claiming the immediate experience of "just this" is reality you > > > >>>>> mistake illusion for reality..... In the cases above it's obvious, > > > >>>>> but if you understand the biology of perception you understand it > > > >>>>> happens EVERY TIME.... > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Edgar > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:50 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Edgar, > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> There many gold standards for what reality is, but surely what we > > > >>>>>> experience as humans is all we have to go on? If I see a snake at > > > >>>>>> night, how I react at that time is far more important than in the > > > >>>>>> morning realising it was just a piece of old rope. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Mike > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>; > > > >>>>>> To: <[email protected]>; > > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... > > > >>>>>> but how plain is that? > > > >>>>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 1:29:39 PM > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Bill, > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> The point is that Bill's "just this" is something produced by > > > >>>>>> complex sensory and cognitive processes. It does NOT correspond to > > > >>>>>> raw reality as he would have us believe. It's the RESULT of a very > > > >>>>>> complex sequence of processes. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> That's why Bill's just this is actually "just this ILLUSION > > > >>>>>> mistaken for reality".... > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> True you don't experience reality like this. Because you ARE NOT > > > >>>>>> EXPERIENCING REALITY AT ALL! > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Edgar > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 9:14 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Edgar, > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> But you don't experience reality like that. Do you have to > > > >>>>>>> understand the endocrine system to take a pee? > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Mike > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>; > > > >>>>>>> To: <[email protected]>; > > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] "It's as plain as the nose on your face" ... > > > >>>>>>> but how plain is that? > > > >>>>>>> Sent: Sun, Jul 7, 2013 12:58:56 PM > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Bill, > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> That's very bad biology. There are 3 general stages involved. Raw > > > >>>>>>> sensory experience which occurs separately in each different > > > >>>>>>> sense organ. There is considerable pre-processing there where eg. > > > >>>>>>> edges and motion are preferentially detected. 2nd there is > > > >>>>>>> perception in the optic lobes, 3rd the brain itself makes what is > > > >>>>>>> perceived into objects in the context of one's internal model of > > > >>>>>>> reality. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> You can't just make things up that are contrary to the way > > > >>>>>>> biology actually works... > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Edgar > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> On Jul 7, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Edgar, > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> What's causing confusion is you continue to look at experience > > > >>>>>>>> only from a pluralistic POV. From a pluralistic POV there is a > > > >>>>>>>> distinction between sight, sound, taste, smell and touch. From a > > > >>>>>>>> monistic POV there is no distinction. It's just experience. > > > >>>>>>>> Experience is only separated into the different senses when > > > >>>>>>>> pluralism arises along with perception. It's then that you see, > > > >>>>>>>> hear, taste, smell and touch. Before pluralism there is just > > > >>>>>>>> experience - Just THIS! > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> It doesn't matter if my perception is different (worse or better > > > >>>>>>>> - like eyesight or hearing) than yours. For example blurry > > > >>>>>>>> vision doesn't produce a different experience than clear vision. > > > >>>>>>>> The vision being blurry or clear is a perception, not an > > > >>>>>>>> experience. The same goes for vision and touch. If a person is > > > >>>>>>>> blind but can feel then they are sentient and do experience; BUT > > > >>>>>>>> a blind person or deaf person does not have the same perception > > > >>>>>>>> as a person who sees and hears well. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> ...Bill! > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > So why is the experience of you different from someone who > > > >>>>>>>> > needs glasses, or a blind person? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > Which has the 'true' experience of the 'true' reality? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > Which is the true 'just this' when you have 3 different just > > > >>>>>>>> > thises? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > Edgar > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > On Jul 7, 2013, at 6:46 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > Edgar, > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > Experience (awareness of the 'real world') is not dependent > > > >>>>>>>> > > upon eyeglasses, corneas or eyes. It is however dependent > > > >>>>>>>> > > upon what we call senses. If you were not sentient then you > > > >>>>>>>> > > could not experience and would have no awareness. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > There would be nothing. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > ...Bill! > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > > >>>>>>>> > > wrote: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > Panda, > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > Good point. Which is the REAL world Bill. With or without > > > >>>>>>>> > > > glasses? With or without corneas? With or without eyes? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > After all reality does NOT consist of focused light images > > > >>>>>>>> > > > of 'things'.... > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > Edgar > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > On Jul 7, 2013, at 1:43 AM, pandabananasock wrote: > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > Are you wearing glasses right now? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > Can you see the frames in your periphery? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > Did you see them before I asked? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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