Larry, Zen is not a religion and does not recognize a god.
Buddhism is a religion, IMO, so you might be confusing the two: zen and Buddhism. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], larry maher <lcmaher22@...> wrote: > > Zen is a religion looking for a God. The Buddha said 'there is no way to > prove God and there is no way to not prove, so believe whatever works for > you.' That's why I like Eastern thought, Hindu's cool also, just too many > gimics and sideshows and people thinking dressing in white bathrobes helps > get you somewhere. Lots of culture confusion. Just my opinion. > > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...>wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have > > buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle > > > > Merle, > > > > Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism. > > > > Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, > > dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have > > nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like > > an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case > > of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact > > seen as a cult. > > > > This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which > > is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an > > upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism. > > > > This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by > > those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > à hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to > > as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle > > > à > > > Merle, > > > > > > As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a > > Buddhist. > > > > > > I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I > > practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What > > it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are > > you?..merle > > > > Ãâà > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who > > doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language > > as I do. Someone ELSE! > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not > > > > > you?...merle > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain > > as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and > > maybe even think "Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? > > What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!". > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà have you been in pain > > > > > > bill..and thought it was > > judgemental delusion?...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post > > below. > > > > > > > > > > > > The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha > > Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just > > as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red > > bird' is the delusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'ââ∠> > > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà bill...i see...so if > > one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled > > over and in agony...merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'ââ∠> > > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as > > through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves > > a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as > > far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford > > awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not > > only humans but all beings as we know them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i know this is a little crazy..however here i > > go..ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'ââ∠> > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are > > in cyber space.... although we need the body to get the messages out > > there...mm that has me stumped! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would this body less be liken to the meditation > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'ââ∠> > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà state that can be achieved once > > one has surpassed the breath counting saga? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'ââ∠> > > > > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà i have belief that > > monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole > > body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in all the many previous post there has been much focus on > > slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so > > to speak? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in > > the body that we do not have any control over what so ever... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own > > thing regardless)... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'ââ∠> > > > > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà my zen question is > > thus: ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'ââ∠> > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà to be totally free ..the > > human body is it a restraint? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'ââ∠> > > > > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'ââ∠> > > > > > > > > ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà > > > > > > > > > Merle > > > > > > > > > www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > *Larry Maher* > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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