>But the above is incoherent. While it is true that the characteristics >of self are not found in the aggergates, and that the characteristic >of permanence are not found in the aggregates, it should also be true >that the characteristics of dukkha are not found in the aggregates. >Yet, you chose to switch lanes midstream and replace dukkha with >"ultimate satisfaction", that is, anti-dukkha. So what you're saying >is that the characteristics of "ultimate staisfaction" are not found >in the aggregates. However, what the Sutra means is that the >characteristics of "dissatisfaction" (i.e. dukkha) are not found in >the aggregates.
The Sutra does not say "dukkha is not found in the aggregates." It says "the aggregates are empty" It also says "no aggregates" - "no form, no sensation, perception, mental reaction, consciousness" You asked me "empty of what?" Instead of trying to translate into normal Dharma language, which says "the aggregates ARE anatta, they ARE anicca, they ARE dukkha" I should have said, to let the Heart Sutra speak on it own terms, "all things are essentially empty-- not born, not destroyed; not stained, not pure; without loss, without gain." This however, conflicts with normal Dharma language, which says "when this is, that is. when this ceases, that ceases." There is birth, old age, sickness, and death. The Heart Sutra, on the other hand, says "no old age and death, and also no ending of old age and death" The Heart Sutra is therefore outside of normal Dharma language. It is an expression of enlightenment. This is not the first time that referencing the Heart Sutra has gotten me into trouble. :) Ian ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Has someone you know been affected by illness or disease? Network for Good is THE place to support health awareness efforts! http://us.click.yahoo.com/UwRTUD/UOnJAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Current Book Discussion: Appreciate Your Life by Taizan Maezumi Roshi. New or used at: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1570622280/ref=ase_actionheroesc-20/002-4507763-9442460?v=glance&s=books> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
