At 10:49 AM 5/3/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> > Huh.  I would have thought it could arise without "me"... but now I'm not
> > sure.  Is it inherently subjective... is anything inherently
> > subjective?  What about vision, eye-consciousness... that certainly arises
> > without "me"... right? lol  I don't understand anything. :)  Is this
> > something special about feelings that you are pointing out?  Or does this
> > apply to all experience whatsoever?
>
>Nothing special about feelings. It was just what came up as part of the 
>earlier discussion.
>
> > What about vision, eye-consciousness... that certainly arises without 
> "me"... right? lol
>
>Does it? How would you know? Seer/seeing/seen.

Ok - something is not adding up for me here.  When I put "me" in quotes 
like that, I am referring to the constructed self-grasping - the idea of "I 
am".  This is not an essential component of awareness at all.  It can be 
abandoned.  I am not referring to the aggregates (which includes the 
physical eyes).

After enlightenment, the Buddha, Zen Masters, and others still see, hear, 
feel and function normally, obviously.  But they are completely free of 
self-grasping constructions, unlike others, who still have this.  How does 
this fit in with what you are saying?

Ian





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