Ian, > ...So I want to just talk about > seeing, for the context of this discussion. I.e. - eye-consciousness.
OK. That works for me. > 1) I'm awake, not sleeping "I" am awake (in samsara). ;-) > 2) eyes open "My" eyes are open. > 3) attention is on the visual aspect of experience (as opposed to being > totally absorbed in thinking or listening, for example) "My" attention is on the visual aspect... > 4) there's enough light > > > Given this, "vision" appears. Right? So these seem essential. Again, > what does not seem essential, is any "I" idea to be present, for vision to > arise.... > > So my question then is, given what I have said above, how does this fit in > with what you are saying, which I am understanding to be, > "seer/seeing/seen", which I am understanding to mean "seer arises with the > seen"? > > ...The whole question we are revolving around, to put it back in basic terms > because the technical language is piling on quickly: "do enlightened > people see/hear/taste/feel/think, yet without self-grasping, without the > "I" feeling present?" My answer would be yes. My answer is, let's see. :-) There is a nice webpage discussing dependent arising at http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/depend.htm. The pictures associated with each of the 12 links of arising are nice. For comparison I will also use the translation of Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Analysis of Dependent Co-arising at http://www.vipassana.com/canon/samyutta/sn12-2.php. Let's focus on links 3, 4 and 5 and see where it leads in our discussion. 3.a. Dependent upon relinking-consciousness there is the arising of Mind-body. 3.b. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. A mini-version of this happens every time we wake up in the morning or dream. It manefests as a sense of association (relinking). "I" am awake. What does that mean? "I" associates with body-mind/name&form. Ego-consciousness co-arises with body-mind/name&form. 4.a. With the coming into existence of mind-body, there is the arising of the Six Sense-spheres. 4.b. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. Ego-consciousness co-arises with body-mind/name&form which co-arises with the six senses. 5.a. The six sense-spheres existing, there is Contact. 5.b. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. Ego-consciousness co-arises with body-mind/name&form which co-arises with the six senses which co-arises with contact. For sight, this is a more precise expression of seer/seeing/seen dependent co-arising. David -- _______________________________________________ NEW! Lycos Dating Search. The only place to search multiple dating sites at once. http://datingsearch.lycos.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Has someone you know been affected by illness or disease? Network for Good is THE place to support health awareness efforts! http://us.click.yahoo.com/UwRTUD/UOnJAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Current Book Discussion: Appreciate Your Life by Taizan Maezumi Roshi Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
