At 11:57 AM 12/19/2005 +0700, you wrote: > >On Sunday, December 18 Ian posted: > > > >And let me just agree with you wholeheartedly here: Zen IS Buddhism. > >I just as wholeheartedly disagree with this entire part of your post. > >Zen is not Buddhism. Most Buddhists in the world have either never heard of >zen or consider it an heretical cult. > > >There is no Zen outside of Buddhism. > >There is plenty of zen outside of Buddhism. Zen is not exclusively bounded >by Buddhism. It's tempting to think of zen as the end product of a >progressive evolution of Buddhism from Hinayana to Mahayana to zen. I used >to think of it that way and can understand and appreciate that argument. >But trying to corral zen within a Buddhist ideology is like stocking cheddar >in the dairy section side-by-side with Velveeta. > ><It would be like saying there is such a thing as cheddar apart from cheese. > >There is such a thing as Cheddar apart from cheese. Cheddar is a village >and a gorge in the county of Somerset in southwest England. > >Gassho...Bill!
Hm. I don't know what is motivating your opinion. Zen accepts the basic teaching which distinguishes Buddhism from other religions - that the end of grasping is the end of suffering. And, within the tradition both in earlier times and as it is currently practiced, there is no question that it aligns itself with the Buddha's teachings. Sees itself as the most essential aspect of it, in fact. Practitioners take the 3 refuges, practice the 5 precepts, teachers discuss the Buddha's life, talk about his teachings, not to mention bowing to a Buddha image... of course it is Buddhism. Now perhaps it's possible to do Zen practice without thinking of oneself as a Buddhist or as engaging in a Buddhist practice, but that's what it is nonetheless. Nothing shows this more clearly than the Bahiya sutta "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." That's Buddhism - straight from the Buddha himself, and that's Zen. Ian ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Current Book Discussion: Appreciate Your Life by Taizan Maezumi Roshi Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
