--- In [email protected], "Bill Smart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >On Sunday, December 18 Ian posted: > > > >And let me just agree with you wholeheartedly here: Zen IS Buddhism. > > I just as wholeheartedly disagree with this entire part of your post. > > Zen is not Buddhism. Most Buddhists in the world have either never heard of > zen or consider it an heretical cult. > > >There is no Zen outside of Buddhism. > > There is plenty of zen outside of Buddhism. Zen is not exclusively bounded > by Buddhism. It's tempting to think of zen as the end product of a > progressive evolution of Buddhism from Hinayana to Mahayana to zen. I used > to think of it that way and can understand and appreciate that argument. > But trying to corral zen within a Buddhist ideology is like stocking cheddar > in the dairy section side-by-side with Velveeta. > > <It would be like saying there is such a thing as cheddar apart from cheese. > > There is such a thing as Cheddar apart from cheese. Cheddar is a village > and a gorge in the county of Somerset in southwest England. > > Gassho...Bill!
You can argue in a sort of ideological sense that Zen is "outside" of Buddhism, if you are talking about the essential nature of things. Some say there is the "Big Question" of "What is zen?" vs. the Little question of "What is Zen?" The answer to the little question is the historical truth of the matter. Zen is a sect of Buddhism that came about when Bodhidharma arrived in China. I don't need to tell you what happened next. The answer to the Big Question, however, "What is zen, really?" is not an easy one. What is outside Buddhism? What is outside Buddha nature? What is zen outside of? Where does Zen go or not go? It is important that the question be addressed in this manner and that one does not get attached to the scholarship or historial truth. There are of course "Buddhist Fundamentalist" types who would dismiss Zen as being heretical to the original teachings. You'll have this in any tradition. Most of them dismiss the mahayana altogether. This is Buddhism "outside of Zen," academically speaking. As for Zen outside of Buddhism, I have never seen or heard of any practitioner, monastery, or teacher who holds zen practice as something divorced from Buddhism. The spirit of zen is the absolute essense of the four noble truths. Non picking and choosing, non- desire, just sitting, chop wood, carry water, whatever you want to call it - these are all expressions of the Buddhas discovery under the Bo tree. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/S27xlB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Current Book Discussion: Appreciate Your Life by Taizan Maezumi Roshi Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZenForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
