Stephen, I guess in order to clear up the semantics issue, we would need to turn to the scriptures and words of the prophets and determine how / when they use the term "unconditional love". I had always thought that the term meant we were to love and forgive our fellowmen, no matter what they have done, because they are children of our Heavenly Father - and thus, our brothers and sisters. Does this mean that God (or we, for that matter) condones what they wicked do? No, of course not. Yet doesn't He still love them, despite the bad that they have done? Where are the conditions that limit God's love? Here is the real kicker - does God still love Lucifer? What about the Sons of Perdition? The other question is this: Does divine love encompass the command to forgive all men? Are we to love those who hurt, abuse, and murder us with divine love or unconditional love? I guess what we need are definitions of each term. When I searched through GospeLink 2001 for the words "unconditional love", and these are the times they were used by General Authorities: "Express unconditional love to one another through word and act." - A. Theodore Tuttle, 1979 address "There he found acceptance and affection and unconditional love." - Elder Marion D. Hanks, Conference Report, October 1970 "First Questioner: Is it possible to become too subtle with something as simple as the gospel? "The Disciple: Indeed it is, and we must ever be aware that this possibility exists. I don't think of the gospel as subtle, however; I think of it as deep and simple. For instance, some might say that what follows is a subtlety: God can love the sinner and hate the sin. When our desires and our actions go against his plans for us, he must be against us and what we are then doing. But that really means that God is always for us. He never regards man with contempt, but regards many of the things we do as contemptible. In the very moment in which Jesus sent Judas away to do his awful deed, He still loved Judas; His disciple whom He had taught unconditional love, who could not love Jesus, nevertheless could not move outside the range of Jesus' love even in betrayal. Some truths take a good deal of pondering, but not because they are complex. Because they are so powerful and cut so deeply, we must truly feel their edge�and more than fleetingly." - Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Desposition of a Disciple "His duties have long been galactic, yet He noticed the widow casting in her mite. I am stunned at His perfect, unconditional love of all. Indeed, "I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me." I thank Him for His discerning way of loving us without controlling us, for never letting the needs of now crowd out the considerations of eternity." - Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Even As I Am "This leads us to the process of making covenants and participating in ordinances, which are sources of power as we realize the importance of the Lord's will in our lives and have faith in it. Such faith turns us toward the Savior, his life, and his unconditional love for us. As these truths sink into our hearts, we hear him requiring the sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit. We must give up the ways of the world and accept and do his way." - Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin, Finding Peace in Our Lives "Because of his rebellion, Lucifer was cast out and became Satan, the devil, "the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto [his] voice." (Moses 4:4.) And so this personage who was an angel of God and in authority, even in the presence of God, was removed from the presence of God and his Son. (See D&C 76:25.) This caused great sadness in the heavens, "for the heavens wept over him�he was Lucifer, a son of the morning." (D&C 76:26.) Does this not place some responsibility on the followers of Christ to show concern for loved ones who have lost their way and "are shut out from the presence of God"? (Moses 6:49.) I know of no better way to do this than to show unconditional love and to help lost souls seek another path." - James E. Faust, Reach Up For The Light Sorry for the long post. Since I have not read Elder Nelson's talk, I do not know if he refutes the concept "unconditional love" or not. If he doesn't, I guess I am not able to state that this concept is meaningless. I can easily see, however, the difference between divine love and unconditional love. Please let me know your thoughts on this. Your brother, Geoff
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/24/03 02:29PM >>> -Geoff- > Great post! According to the prophets, then it appears that there > are actually two types of love: > 1. Divine love > 2. Unconditional love > They are not one and the same. However, it is true that our > Heavenly Father has and exercises both, and that we are > commanded to do likewise. Would you agree? Not quite, I don't think. While it is true that "God is love", it is not true that "Love is God". That is, "love" is not an overriding or ultimate principle wherein everything and everyone is loved. I believe that "unconditional love" is nothing more than a linguistic construct. I think it's false as a concept, nonexistent, nonsensical, without meaning, just like "sinful God" or "miserable exaltation" are nonsensical and meaningless. All love, even God's love, is conditioned or predicated upon the laws set forth (by God) that govern it. Parents may think the love for their child is boundless and unconditional; but let that child turn against the parents and everything they have stood for and tried to build, and actively seek their destruction, the destruction of their other children, and the desecration of all that the parents consider holy, and the parents, while mourning their child's loss and hoping for his return, are likely to find that their love is conditional after all. In this vein, I don't think we're commanded to exercise "unconditional love", which wouldn't even make any sense anyway if that term is an oxymoron. I think we're commanded to love as God loves, but as Elder Nelson pointed out, divine love is not "unconditional". We are commanded to forgive all men, and to show forth the love of Christ; but I don't think this means any sort of "unconditional love". Admittedly, like all philosophical discussions, this becomes a matter of defition and semantics. Stephen ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ==^^=============================================================== This email was sent to: [email protected] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^^===============================================================
