Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Hey Martin,
> Martin Aspeli wrote:
> [snip]
>> Sigh... this discussion is just really difficult. I don't really 
>> understand what the problem is here, or why it's indicative of what's 
>> "wrong" with this community, but then I'm pretty lost in concepts and 
>> names at this stage.
>> I think you're reading way too much into what I wrote though. I just 
>> meant "thing using the Zope Toolkit but adding more stuff", e.g. an app 
>> server project or a shared management UI project.
> The difference is I think was that I'm not talking about just code; a 
> KGS is just a list of versions. I'm talking about code and documentation 
> and a presentation of this code as a whole that people can learn about 
> and play with.
> The notion that it's just enough for Zope 3 to be pieces of code is part 
> of what led me to Grok.
> If the notion of Zope 3 can be limited to just a greater set of packages 
> where compatibility is tested, it's not really much of a project to 
> speak of. That's fine, we have other projects like Grok that do care, 
> but I'll stop worrying about it.

sure, i understand what you're saying here.  it'd be great if some set of 
folks who are using the full Z3 app server platform decided to step up, create 
a website, refine the branding, and just generally breathe life into the 
project.  but, until someone does, we have a weird muddled situation where 
nobody except the people who are regulars on this mailing list has any idea 
what is going on with this "Zope" thing.

me, personally, i don't use the Z3 app server platform, so i'm not going to be 
one of the people who steps up to take charge of it's public face.  and, 
frankly, i don't really care one way or the other whether or not anybody else 
does it.  but you DO seem to care, martijn; you'd like to see that platform 
get the love, attention, and branding that it deserves.  that's great.

but i suggest you'd have more success in that effort if you said things like:

"Hey, all you people out there using the Zope 3 app server thingy... you 
realize you have a branding problem, right?  Now is a perfect time to revisit 
your platform.  Maybe some folks should get together, come up with a catchy 
name (Rob Miller already suggested 'Zapp'... ;-) , and build a website with 
some documentation... whaddaya say?"

instead of:

"The whole idea of whatever-Zope 3-is-designated-as just being a 'larger
KGS' strikes me as strange. Frankly it strikes me as indicative of
what's wrong with this community."

of course, there are no guarantees that you're going to get any takers no 
matter HOW you approach this.  but that's life, IMO... if nobody steps up to 
do what needs to be done, well, there you are.


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