Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 07:32:18AM -0400, pl...@room3420.net wrote: > an other interesting reading : > https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card I love this article very much. Unhelpful, bossy blowhards should experience exactly these emotions. My favorite part was the accusation of "cancel culture," which I have learned is Boomer code for "accountability." They really hate that shit! If 9front has constructed a culture where someone who calls themselves "Innovator Harnessing the Power of Open Source: Transforming Businesses, Empowering Solutions" does not feel welcome, then I am profoundly satsified with that culture, and commend everyone involved in its creation. Anyway, just for the record, nobody in the 9front project has any ill will toward 9legacy. Technical concerns like p9sk1, yes, but everyone agrees there should be *more* Plan 9 out there, not less. We keep suggesting that people fork 9front as well, and make 9front Suit And Tie Edition, Empowering Harnessed Transformative Innovations, with all of the technical goodies and none of the humor or fun, but nobody seems to have the drive to make that happen. If anyone wants help bootstrapping such a project, please let me know and I'll help however I can. The existence of something like that might help deflect all the unfunded mandates people keep trying to demand of the 9front project, and create a nice home for the sorts of people whose primary qualifications are that they like to watch and they've been watching for decades. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te051f230f2656bbb-M4bc8405899fcc7a94bd431ef Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 02:22:01PM +, Samuel Reader via 9fans wrote: > The 2nd draft is out. I've made some corrections as mentioned by others, and > I have added those who have helped to the acknowledgements. This draft is > only for those that are interested in the content. If you are not interested > please disregard. I confirmed the model was trained on 9front resources, > including git history. > > https://link.storjshare.io/s/juh72ktckqt2mpdaeebljo7mve2q/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf This document is full of lies, and I don't think you trained a model at all. I'd wager you only applied an inference step, and from an inexpensive model at that. Your claim that you "confirmed the model was trained" just tells me you know as little about large-language models as you do about Plan 9: you're the wrong person for this job. This is not a meaningful contribution to the literature. Nobody will be helped by this. Samuel Reader was an American hero who fought with John Brown. If you share a name with such a famous writer, maybe you can take inspiration from him and anctually try to write something. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te051f230f2656bbb-M524e78627dc57f60f74081ab Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:54:41PM -0400, Don Bailey wrote: > You handwave insults off by pretending like they aren't directed at the > exact person you're responding to :-) > > It's quite tiresome, and yet persistent. When else has it happened? Do I always do it? Are there firmware differences? Have you collected logs on the matter? I just don't think you have the data to back up this persistence claim. I'm generally pretty direct when I want to insult someone. It's not like there are meaningful consequences. If you feel like you were subject to the category of people I was describing, there's not much I can do about that, I guess. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M7a9282fa0e9032a09d8324c6 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:20:04PM -0400, Don Bailey wrote: > Again, this is a core example I'm talking about. In this email you've > called me gross, a bootlicker, etc, while ignoring my concerns and brushing > them off as "emotional". What part of "not directed at you, Don" did you fail to parse? What other entire clauses in my email messages have you failed to parse? This is a concerning development. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M25dc0e8c9d6985413fddbe2a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:53:28AM -0400, Don Bailey wrote: > It's not gaslighting to ask for evidence. I was here, I remember the > complains with Fossil. But to what degree was that /actually/ Fossil? What > degree was it the configurations, the hardware, the firmware, the > consistency of management/usage? What investigations have gone into those > bits, as well. Setting up and running Fossil requires some knowledge and > maintenance. It is not unlike a classic Volkswagen. They run great if you > constantly bother with them. Believe me, it causes me great personal pain to say this, as a dude who just sold an 85 Jetta and must physically restrain himself from filling his yard with air-cooled Boxers, but "constantly bothering" and "running great" are mutually exclusive. > It isn't gaslighting to ask for those details. And if we are a code-centric > community, as we claim to be, point to the code that shows me it's > problematic and unstable. Have you found it? And I don't say that to be > coy... where can we demonstrably show that Fossil is volatile? What data > backs that up? It's great that you're willing to take bug reports seriously! If that had been the prevailing attitude on 9fans some years back, 9front probably wouldn't exist, much less exist without an in-tree Fossil. But your "point to the code" demand is not a great look. That *is* more like the old-school response to Fossil bug reports. In a way, deleting Fossil was the grandest test of all -- since it's gone, Fossil has stopped corrupting my data for sure. So there's the code causing the problem, at the granularity I consider worthwhile to pursue. Nobody owes you a scientific analysis. But if you (or anyone else) wants to put this stuff back in the 9front tree, it needs to be clearly demonstrated that it won't be a massive timesink and a distraction from the other, more fun filesystems we have. > So this is, again, the problem I have with what has occurred on this list. > Anything certain parties here disagree with is brushed off as trolling or > "gaslighting" or any other such term that rationalizes dismissal. Let's be > prescriptive, instead. No, not "anything." Specifically this Fossil nonsense. I don't know why so many people have deep emotional ties to Fossil, and I'm not really interested in finding out, but the years of hostility torward problem reports regarding Fossil, interspersed with "fixes" that weren't, led me (as an outsider) to conclude that nobody actually understands how the damn thing works, and if they do they're not interested in helping maintain it... and that alone is a great reason to delete the code. Anyway I don't understand why everyone is pissed about this. Anyone who wants Fossil can install it. If you want a 'canonical' Fossil, upload it somewhere and canonize it. Problem solved. As an aside, not directed at you, Don: this weird bootlicking where a commercial entity has to be involved to make something 'real' is pretty gross. We don't need bureaucracy to help one another, and I will never give a shit if someone's use of the software is for-profit or not, and I don't understand why it matters at all. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-Mda8af7748da9f37163180f4d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:20:48AM -0400, Don Bailey wrote: > But please document them and provide rationale/evidence for their removal. You've been on this list a while. You should remember therefore that Fossil was a *constant* topic of debate here for *years*. Specifically, people kept reporting that Fossil had beshit their data, and other people deemed that a skill issue and insisted Fossil was fine. As bug fixes trickled out, Fossil continued to be fine, and people's data kept getting corrupted. Maybe Fossil is fixed now! Maybe it isn't! It's not worth finding out, and the situation was never helped by the "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" crowd refusing to take bug reports -- and actively attacking bug reporters. So, the backstory of Fossil on 9fans is what led to it getting deleted. Asking for 'evidence' is just more of the same gaslighting that happened on this very list. > How was the lack-of-stability tested? To what degree was it tested? etc. Not how it works. The burden of support is on the distributor. Part of forking software is, when it breaks, people come knocking on your door/mailing list/ircnet complaining that "your" software ate their computer. We *knew* Fossil was unreliable, so continuing to ship it in that state was idiotic. Removing it was an act of self-defense and/or housekeeping, depending on how militant you like your metaphors. Meanwhile, since the defossilization of 9front, Fossil itself continued to receive attention. It sounds like the sp9sss dropped the ball on coordinating some of that, but we are assured that Fossil is great now. The problem is: we were assured Fossil was great then, too, especially when it wasn't. Therefore it is the burden of the Chamber of Fossil Fraternity Et Exuberance to prove that it is stable, and test it to such a degree that it's worth considering again. The rest of us are tired of driving in that circle. You can even store it on our sources server, or put the code on our git9 repo host. We don't hate Fossil users. We just don't want to take responsibility for it. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-Me2967c4df12180934fde1181 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 02:18:54AM -0400, ibrahim via 9fans wrote: > You really should read the GPL. Your changes were included with GPL'ed code > even in the same file and not distributed as independent patches so the > modified work as a whole got infected by the GPL license. This is explicitly allowed by the GPL as explained by the FSF. [1] But that's moot, since we never shipped a GPL upstream. We went from LPL, sat out the GPL, and switched to MIT directly. See previous email for revision history. khm 1 - https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#WhatDoesCompatMean -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M791ca8b4f0060d0f07822405 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 02:04:24AM -0400, ibrahim via 9fans wrote: > > There are many companies who double license code. As the owners of such code > they are free to do this. Users can't relicense code as they please > especially not GPL licensed code. At no point did we 'relicense' anything. We have never been in control of the license terms of Labs-provided code. The code we write, we licensed MIT. We then released both as a mixture; this is explicitly allowed under the GPL (the FSF calls MIT the "expat" license, see [1] for their declaration that it is compatible) and also under Lucent Public License Section 3 A. We comply with LPL section 3 C by providing complete revision history in a source control system; anyone may inspect it to identify the originator of any of the code. Hope this helps, khm 1 - https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html#Expat -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M24a9625c1ca2e86426c517fa Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 01:54:27AM -0400, ibrahim via 9fans wrote: > > Please correct me if I'm wrong. > Happily. Here's the original revision of /lib/legal/NOTICE: http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/944787349e93/lib/legal/NOTICE > The Plan 9 software is provided under the terms of the > Lucent Public License, Version 1.02, reproduced in the > file /lib/legal/lpl, with the following notable exceptions: a later revision, specifying the license for 9front-originated code, and adding exceptions for Python and Mercurial: http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/84ba3046886d/lib/legal/NOTICE > Plan 9 from Bell Labs is provided under the terms of the Lucent Public > License, > Version 1.02, reproduced in the file /lib/legal/lpl. > > Any additions or changes (as recorded in Mercurial history) made by 9front > are provided > under the terms of the MIT License, reproduced in the file /lib/legal/mit, > unless > otherwise indicated. > > The following exceptions apply: When the Labs released the code under GPL, it was still *also* available under the Lucent Public License 1.02. The software was, at that point, dual-licensed under LPL and GPL. We didn't see any benefit from acknowledging this, since the previous license was still valid and compatible with our needs. Once the MIT-licensed release was made available, we rebased on that: http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/87d8e72ffb5c/lib/legal/NOTICE > Plan 9 from Bell Labs is provided under the terms of the MIT license, > reproduced in the file /lib/legal/mit. > > Any additions or changes (as recorded in Mercurial history) made by 9front > are also provided under the same MIT License, unless otherwise > indicated. The only material change since then was moving from Mercurial to Git as source control, at which time we deleted Python and Mercurial from the tree, and removed the relevant clauses from /lib/legal/NOTICE. Third-party software not mentioned in the NOTICE file, but covered by non-MIT licenses, has always explicitly been identified as having their special cases addressed in-tree: > Other, less notable exceptions are marked in the file tree with > COPYING, COPYRIGHT, or LICENSE files. That practice predates 9front. Hope this clears up the history. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-Mbdebd79c701e669045af7f62 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 11:52:29PM -0400, ibrahim via 9fans wrote: > > You ignore copyrights as you please and distributed 9front under an MIT > license long before Nokia as the owner of it decided to do so. You did > that at a time when plan9 was placed under GPL. You have apparently not read our licensing document at /lib/legal/NOTICE, which explicitly names the terms of the original Plan 9 code, and assigns the MIT license only to changes produced by 9front. As the labs-provided code has been made available under different licenses, we have updated this to reflect the changes, from Lucent Public License, through the GPL relicense, and then the MIT license. At all times we've complied with the distribution requirements of all applicable licenses. > The first thing such people have to check is the way you handle licenses. Yes, and our handling of them has been impeccable, with a wonderful end state where all of the Plan 9 code, both from the Labs and from 9front, can live happily ever after under the same license thanks to a lot of work from people who cared. One by one we're getting rid of the third-party software -- I particularly look forward to the day we can finally ditch Ghostscript -- but in the meantime these accusations of license violations are misinformed and have no basis in reality. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M27e972c2ed30ae3748f1d0d4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 11:46:59AM +0930, clinton wrote: > I await the scorching flames for my great impudence of interjecting into a > vociferous discussion with such a pragmatic tangent! If you don't intend to have anything hanging out with a direct internet connection, just use whatever looks cool and is supported by the hardware you have at hand. If your installation is going to be subject to transmitting packets across the internet, 9front has better crypto. As has been mentioned recently in this list, porting that crypto back to 9legacy may be a fun way to get your hands dirty, if you're into that sort of thing. Either way you're not really missing anything by picking one to play with, and if you feel like you are, it will still be there when you feel like trying the other one out. Reading all the stuff in /sys/doc is a great way to start learning on either distribution. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M4264d1a4bf2b692f45d27184 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 09:46:12PM -0400, Dan Cross wrote: > > So what is it, exactly, that people want? The only people who feel like there's some conflict to resolve are people who do not use the software and have nothing to offer except for social commentary. This "us vs them" shit is only of interest to people who are unaware that the argument stopped happening years ago. "What people want" is in general to feel like they're helping, but these days it's a rare 9fan whose head is inserted so deep that middle management seems like the helping hand we all need. Everyone in the Plan 9 world has what they want, at this point, except maybe unlimited free time to pursue the to-do list. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M945a6c0bfefaec1e617cb9f7 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 09:21:20AM +0900, vester.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote: > unclear who exactly is responsible. Typically, a team of two or more > individuals would focus on these deliverables. nobody is "responsible" and there are no "deliverables" the people who covet bureaucracy have one to play with. if you are one of them, I suggest you visit plan9foundation.org and get involved with it. otherwise, there are no problems here to fix, all this shit you're talking about is in your head and has nothing to do with us. please don't respond to this message. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M5bee9f213d1f12c8ad7568a2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] one weird trick to break p9sk1 ?
On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 02:16:47PM +0100, Richard Miller wrote: > > That's quadrillions of years. Not what most people would call "trivial". > And that's generously assuming the implementation of meet-in-the-middle > is zero cost. Without meet-in-the-middle, we're looking at a 168-bit > keyspace and an even more preposterous number of years. Meanwhile, sweet32 exists, all this shit has already been prosecuted on other venues, and NIST shitcanned 3DES entirely last year. Not deprecated. Disallowed. Why? Because no matter how many numbers you paste into an email, it costs thirty bucks to crack it on someone else's ASIC farm. Pretending that getting access to $100k hash-cracking arrays is any more inconvenient than Uber Eats is straight-up disingenuous. It is extremely gross to be defending 3DES in 2024. You should know better. I don't particularly care if 9legacy adopts dp9ik, but there are people who will come reading this list archive down the road, and they'll be under the assumption that your arguments are in good faith. I hope they are not, because this crap is at best irresponsible. Occam's razor does not advocate ignoring the entire standardized best practices of the industry because you have emotional attachments to broken software and have used a pocket calculator to convince yourself you know better than everyone else on Earth. Advocating a switch to 3DES because it's backward-compatible with DES if you use it wrong is magnificent trolling, or depressing malpractice, depending on your intent. I can't ever know that, so I'll just state for posterity: kids, don't do this. It's a terrible plan. Do better, khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T56397eff6269af27-M6ef048148514ce58cf76ead5 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] How to PXE boot with "two" DHCP servers on one network
On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 04:52:29PM +0100, Marco Feichtinger wrote: > My router at home also serves as the DHCP server for the network. > > I have a plan9 file server and now want to pxe boot a second machine from it. > On the file server I have 'ip/dhcpd -sS' running, since it also serves bootp > requests. > > Now when i pxe boot the second machine, it loads 9boot, but when searching > for the > /cfg/pxe/ file, it uses the ip address of my router. > > Boot Message: > pxe on ether0 . > (!69): /cfg/pxe/ > .T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.T.Ttftpread1st: failed to connect to server (!69) > > How can I pxe boot other machines, without my file server acting as dhcp > server for the whole network? don't run two dhcp servers. turn off the one on your fileserver and configure your router to pass next-server: to clients that should pxe boot from the fileserver. it just needs to support tftp. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T47150b930c3726bd-M18f3db81c876c8802eec3748 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Re: broken link in cat-v
On Sat, Feb 10, 2024 at 06:04:33PM +1100, Rob Pike wrote: > Thanks, but I don't know who owns that site these dayse. I'll forward to > the 9fans mailing list. > > -rob > > > On Sat, Feb 10, 2024 at 6:20 AM Douglas McIlroy < > douglas.mcil...@dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > > The link to plan 9 from outer space in sam.cat-v is wrong. I found a good > > link in wikipedia. > > sl runs cat-v.org these days. I'd recommend replacing the link to plan9.us with a link to https://9fans.github.io/plan9port/ I don't see a link to Plan 9 from Outer Space, so I reckon Doug was referring to the p9p link. khmOuter Space, so I reckon Doug was referring to the p9p link. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Ta8cbb6bfc2a04158-M4159540a82e0f5d5917997df Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:44:34AM -0500, Don Bailey wrote: > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. This tracks. Thanks for your insight. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Me138226fac6ff1e201565b93 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 06:17:39AM +0900, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote: > However, it is challenging for me to engage effectively in a community > when there's no unified vision to align with. We all like Plan 9. Identify the people who like the same things about Plan 9 that you like about Plan 9, and engage with them. It might be easier than taking on the whole community simultaneously. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M8d8e62c4f494d9b7074260c5 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 10:49:33PM -0500, Don A. Bailey wrote: > I use it. It’s also my advice. It wasn’t “advice” from Rob, it was a design > choice. There’s more value in that than “advice”. It's a design choice nobody can implement, because it presumes that the starting point is correct enough that you never have to break compatibility. It's a wonderful design choice to make, for instance, regarding a system you never intend to touch again. > Not interested in your theoretical discussions or trolling. Thanks. You talk about receiving patches from the foundation but *I'm* the one with theoretical discussions or trolling? Wild. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mf7278311c65fe4e903b870aa Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 08:53:30PM -0500, Don A. Bailey wrote: > Tbf I took it as genuine. > > One reason I responded with no is that Rob noted that further 9 releases > should not be a release at all, but should be fluid updates through the > network. I think if 9 lives on it should be that was, as intended. might want to focus on advice from people who use plan 9, instead > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I’d prefer > the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only receive > patches through them. what is weird about forking unmaintained software? khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M560a8ff1936505596f57adb3 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 Foundation is a 501(c)(3)
On Tue, Dec 12, 2023 at 07:22:01PM -0800, Anthony Sorace wrote: >Since announcing the Plan 9 Foundation, folks have asked how they can >support our work. We’ve had that “on hold” until we had a bunch of >organizational things sorted. We’re very pleased to say that the last big >one of those is now completed: the Plan 9 Foundation has been recognized >as a 501(c)(3) organization by the IRS. >If you’re a U.S. taxpayer, donations to the Foundation are now tax >deductible. This also lets us participate in a lot of other things, >perhaps most notably employer matching programs. If you work at a company >with such a program, you can now multiply your donation. >The easiest way to make a donation is via credit/debit card here: >https://www.zeffy.com/donation-form/25fe42cb-e841-497d-94b0-c05a3a5bb153 >Zeffy is a credit card processor that only works with non-profits and >passes through your entire donation amount (they’ll ask you for an >optional “tip” to fund their operations). >If you’d like to make a donation in another way, more information can be >found on the Foundation’s page for donations: >http://plan9foundation.org/donate.html >On behalf of the board, thanks to everyone who’s expressed interest for >your patience in getting to this point. >Anthony Sorace, >Treasurer >9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options >Permalink Congrats on getting this done. It's not an easy thing and the work that went into it is appreciated. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T2aea913cd8721bea-Ma2820c1777c3bcae9d6657a9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Problem with outputing from kernel
On Wed, Oct 04, 2023 at 07:18:23AM -0400, dusan3...@gmail.com wrote: > Also I was doing with tail -f /dev/kmesg in the background and without that > /dev/kmesg loses the start of output up to some random moment where it shows > it. Could the problem be that i have too many outputs? try tail +0f /dev/kmesg -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T31db04ef89737d25-M0e9be2ef226b9b14bee99193 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support
On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 12:32:55PM +, G B via 9fans wrote: > Windows and Linux began on single-core single processor machines. > Multiprocessor had been around for some time--IBM's System 360 began using > multi-processors in 1968--but not for x86. Plan 9 first edition came out in > 1992, at a time when multicore didn't exist, and multicore was released with > IBM's Power 4 in 2001. > I can see why someone would ask if Plan 9 supports multicore. Plan 9 3rd > edition was released in 2000 and 4th edition was released in 2002. In each > case, going from single core-single processor to multiprocessor and then from > multiprocessor to multicore would require changes in the operating system to > recognize the extra processors and then the cores. Symmetric multiprocessing was available in 1992, even on x86 machines. Multics, tops-10, and various unixes all supported it by then. Once you have shared-memory SMP there's little difference between multiprocessor and multicore. Plan 9's implementation is imo cleaner than most of what came before, but by 1992 there was a lot of multiprocessing going on in the world. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T912e4838cb1a371f-M782fd3f6b87a6f36612c7cfd Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] How do I build from source on linux?
On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 01:46:17PM -0400, dusan3...@gmail.com wrote: > Research Researching what? "The effects of using build systems I don't like: an empirical approach" khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5b2523de4ef223e9-M51f878e27ee5fee38e353869 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] iwp9: call for papers
On Thu, Feb 02, 2023 at 02:06:41PM -0500, Marshall Conover wrote: > > I see in the "important dates" the "Camera-ready version" for March 13th, > but I'm not sure what that refers to. > "Camera-ready" is a publishing term which means the document is fully typeset and ready to be printed. It dates from the days of photo-offset printing, where you'd photograph a document and make printing plates from the film negative. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcb1e8931f4fed60b-M0e9f527a5076eb25e5af51bd Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] discord invite link (was: sirjofri's Annual Christmas (and New-Year) Post)
On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 12:02:08PM +0900, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote: > > Dr. Strangedev or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love GitHub > > --Vic You should switch to GMail. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te12d98382a4fe46a-M8fff8f6b97475865ccd212bc Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Trouble compiling "Hello, world"
On Tue, Aug 02, 2022 at 05:38:39AM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote: > It's a shame that the SDF wiki > (https://wiki.sdf.org/doku.php?id=vps_-_plan_9_9front) returns a > missing page. Looks like it just got moved: https://wiki.sdf.org/doku.php?id=plan_9_9front khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te178b97d94173ff8-M2a0976db78ad483a0ed8b174 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] 9front, git and mercurial.
On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 02:12:47PM -0400, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote: > Related question I can't seem to track down an answer to: > > I have a 9front cluster which was set up back when Mercurial was used, > so that is what sysupdate is looking for. > > I finally realized that I am no longer seeing updates because 9front > switched to git. > > How does one go about upgrading an existing 9front install to pull > updates from git instead of hg? sysupdate should have seamlessly moved you to git. what mercurial revision is your stuff currently running? this will be a longish debugging session so for the rest of it we should probably move to the 9front mailing list, since 9fans at large might not appreciate the traffic. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T7dfa66085e395bcb-M7580c6a90807ccb1f0c2c555 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 12:00:02AM +, Stuart Morrow wrote: > > I'm aware. I meant the intended use by the people who designed it. I > wouldn't call a number pad a pointing device just because it can be > used as one. > Apologies to Ted Selker, but it's a poor tool that only functions in accordance with its designer's intent. I wouldn't call a number pad a pointing device either, but I see no need for a Cardassian "there are two buttons" reality-denial session for a pointing device that clearly has three. To update my previous reply on this thread, the left mouse button of my LTRAC trackball suffered from a failed microswitch. While shopping around for replacement parts I stumbled across a vendor that carries several three-or-more button pointing devices. Content warning for the faint of heart: the following page refers to non-mice as 'mouse products.' https://www.fentek-ind.com/ergmouse.htm And for the record, P.I. Engineering will not sell spare parts for the LTRAC units, but will send you links to Digikey pages to order your own. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T49f3cceea70d2b61-Mc7ced772c99a52e354070f70 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?
On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 11:09:24PM +, Stuart Morrow wrote: > On 01/02/2022, Ben Hancock wrote: > > as well but have yet to become adept at the trackpoint. Do you find > > you're able to sweep lines as easily using it in acme as with a physical > > mouse? > > A trackpoint isn't a real three-button mouse by Acme's standards. "A > real three-button mouse" is something that supports one-to-one > finger-to-button. A trackpoint is a two-button mouse with an > additional scroll button. It's designed for Windows and OS/2. That scroll button nonsense is a function of the Windows driver. On all Thinkpads the buttons present as a normal three-button mouse, with left, middle, and right-click. Using a better operating system, or failing to install the Trackpoint drivers, leads to normal functionality. This is also true of trackpoint-laden keyboards with the sole exception of the Lenovo "ThinkPad Compact Keyboard with Trackpoint" family of USB/Bluetooth models, and thanks to aiju a firmware fix is available to repair some of those. > Plus, trackpoint users will often accidentally type 'u', which on Plan > 9 means you lose what's in your snarf buffer. I have never seen a trackpoint user accidentally type 'u', and this is coming from someone who has used trackpoints as their primary pointing device from the late 1990s until about six months ago. How exactly did you come to this conclusion? I wonder if this is unique to a particular model? I have at least one of every IBM, Lexmark, or Dolch produced trackpoint keyboard, and I'd love to try to reproduce. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T49f3cceea70d2b61-M3bca6dd44649fb27dfb95fc7 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] licence question
On Fri, Feb 04, 2022 at 09:30:26AM -0600, Kent R. Spillner wrote: > > In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for them? ;) > In my experience needing to be told what's best for them is the defining characteristic of a student khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mebbbc70d0d122fd7d3ec1dfc Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?
On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 08:14:44PM +1300, umbrati...@prosimetrum.com wrote: > > small ones seem to me like a pain to point, and the large ones look > > like hard to make chords with the big ball in the middle. Could you > > share your experience? > > I use a Kensington Expert which I guess falls into the big > ball in the middle category. Honestly, most of the time I > click/chord with my left hand on the thinkpad's trackpad > buttons while rolling the ball with my right hand, but > chording with the trackball buttons is also fine. The > scrollwheel thing is pretty nice too. My pointing device on the desktop is an L-TRAC trackball, currently sold by xkeys.com. It's definitely in the 'big ball in the middle' category but the buttons are mostly huge enough to make up for it -- I've never found myself straining to reach anything, but I will admit the extension ports allowing more buttons to be scattered around the desktop is a nice bonus. I don't recommend the LED-lit models, as they're brighter than the goddamn sun, and trackball itself is translucent so it just shines like a beacon. I replaced my ball with a 9-ball to mitigate the glare. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T49f3cceea70d2b61-M4d5b713a555327b737f00c15 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?
On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 03:47:48PM +1100, Rob Pike wrote: > I have one mouse still in the original unopened box, just to be safe. The > label reads > > 31P7405 Lenovo Scrollpoint Mouse Model MO098OA > > And I have now opened it to be sure, and it is the true blue (literally) > 3-button version. It is labeled Lenovo, although the ones I use are all > labeled IBM. > > -rob Lenovo wasn't as much of a stickler for nomenclature as IBM; I ran into all kinds of label variants -- when I worked at IBM I used to snag these when I could. They were also labeled 'ThinkPlus Optical Mouse' for a while, when bundled with a computer. Useful information for keeping them alive can be found here: http://www.ibmfiles.com/pages/scrollpoint.htm khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T49f3cceea70d2b61-M70eb00c53e8c95e0ad155dc1 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 08:39:09PM -0800, Kurt H Maier via 9fans wrote: > The Scrollpoint Rob mentioned was made > with both IBM and Lenovo branding, and was also available in a sculpted > Pro model with a thumb-actuated fourth button. I should specify: the Scrollpoint mouse technically only has two buttons and a round pointing device in between. The Scrollpoint II is the one Rob describes (with either a blue or red oval pointing stick behind a middle mouse button), and it was available in both optical and mechanical configurations. The Scrollpoint Pro ergonomic mouse was also available in both optical and mechanical setups; the mechanical version is absolutely miserable, but the optical version was great. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T49f3cceea70d2b61-M8953d5544698cff773fd66cf Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 07:48:15PM -0800, Ben Hancock wrote: > Hi all, > > Acme has become my main text editor and I'm in the market for a good > mouse with a decent middle click (i.e. B2). If product recommendations > aren't eschewed on the list, would fellow acme and/or sam users be > willing to share some mice suggestions? There seem to be a real dearth > of options that have a true middle button these days. > > I'm currently using an Elecom mouse designed for use with CAD programs > that has a true middle button, and it does a serviceable job. But it > feels cheap and I fear it will break with much more use. I also recently > tried a gaming mouse -- a Roccat KAIN 100 Aimo -- after reading reviews > that its scroll wheel had a decent click. But while it's quite a nice > mouse, the middle click requires more pressure than I'd prefer. > > Many thanks in advance! > > - Ben Many of us have had success with the Contour mice, both their soon-discontinued 'Contour' model, available in various sizes, and their 'Unimouse' adjustable model. HP model DY651A is a cheaper option, but it's getting hard to find. The Scrollpoint Rob mentioned was made with both IBM and Lenovo branding, and was also available in a sculpted Pro model with a thumb-actuated fourth button. For a portable option, Lenovo sells a convertible 'Yoga' series of wireless mice, which have two mechanical buttons and a touchpad-style scrolling section in between; on all of these that I've tested, tapping the scroll panel sends a middle click, and they support tap-and-hold as you would expect. I haven't tested some of the newer ones, and there's always the danger some product manager got 'creative' instead of just selling a useful product. The Evoluent VerticalMouse series has three mechanical buttons plus a scroll wheel between buttons 1 and 2. Finally, the Logitech G series of gaming mice don't have separate middle click -- they use the wheel for that -- but they frequently have other buttons which can be configured to serve as button 2, and the configuration software writes this setting to the device, so you don't need weird driver support when you plug it into a real computer. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T49f3cceea70d2b61-M95055c30e7391c7003c4352f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] licence question
On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 08:14:25PM -0500, ibrahim via 9fans wrote: > Thanks for your hint ori, > > After searching for Copying, Copyright, Licence I found these problematic > commands (libs) : > > Xen (9f) > diff (9f,l9) > patch (9f, l9) > ghostscript (9f, l9) > mp3dec (9f, l9) > lzip (l9) > > 9f ... 9font > l9 ... legacy9 > > I'm not sure how problematic icclib could be. Clause 4 could be dangerous > regarding ... derived from based on ... None of these prohibit redistribution. Feel free to delete them from your copy. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e07bfdf263a83c8-Mf9b949619666f7a8730e2d73 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundation
On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 06:55:27PM +0100, Alexandr Babic wrote: > >> I agree. This mailing list is turning out to be a bit too fucking bizarro > >> for my taste. > > If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Nobody owes you a > > safe space, snowflake. > > khm, you are using snowflake here in wrong context :-( > > first letter from original author was snowflakish, > there's no need to use words like "not cool political views, support > oppression, amazing and full of rainbow love" > in technical forum. > > document "intro to OS abstractions" is great and i don't what are political > views of author. > so tell me who is a snowflake now :-D definitely you. Someone wants to write a book about a technical topic, and all you and that other idiot can talk about are the motivations, because you are intellectually incapable of contributing to technical work. If you don't want to or are incapable of helping with the book, just archive/delete the email and move on, instead of pissing and moaning about the rest. I swear, you snowflakes are the most entitled people. Not only does everyone have to talk about what YOU want to talk about, but they cannot deviate from the topic EVEN SLIGHTLY or you start cramping up. Get a life. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T627a29a7babaf29e-Mdad3846f62bfc848b95fcb9d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundation
On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 05:38:19AM -0700, Duke Normandin wrote: > > > >> On 1/24/22, Alexandr Babic wrote: > >> > >> hello. > >> > >> please don't put any politics here, everyone has own political opinion, but > >> discuss it elsewhere. > >> sub-word "trans" should be used only inside "transpiler" word when talking > >> about computers :-) :-) > >> > >> thanx, a.b. > > I agree. This mailing list is turning out to be a bit too fucking bizarro > for my taste. > If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Nobody owes you a safe space, snowflake. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T627a29a7babaf29e-M590eaddefe11efc6c3b47de0 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 01:54:02PM -0500, Antonio Barrones wrote: > Linux distros are not only "Linux", they are GNU/Linux. Linux is only the > kernel of a GNU/Linux system (a distro). Android is not a distro because they > don't have GNU, but Android is "Linux" because it has Linux as kernel. Please keep FSF FUD off this list. Alpine is a Linux distro and doesn't rely on GNU. There are, and always have been, several such. Copyright cultists riding on coattails notwithstanding, there isn't much point in belaboring such terminology, since Plan 9 is not typically distributed in modular packages, but as an integrated system, and GNU cruft doesn't readily build on it anyway. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-M7ec276e4c284c40496449d0e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?
On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 12:36:19AM +0100, Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir wrote: > > I'm afraid you got it wrong. Community is mostly centered around > 9front. One of the reasons is that it actually works and is still > being developed and used by many. Plan 9 is dead, 9front lives on. > There is also software developed outside of 9front git repo, by people > who use 9front: http://only9fans.com > Whether some "secret community" decides to "accept" (or not) 9front as > "official" doesn't matter. > And part of the reason it doesn't matter is that there ARE active users of non-9front Plan 9, and they all have reasons (some unique, some shared) to do things that way, and when good code shows up, everyone benefits, no matter which flavor of Plan 9 they wrote it for. Regardless of other interplay, that shared interest is what makes up a community, and there doesn't need to be complete uniformity of thought for that to be both real and valuable. khm -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T395156d4f2b00cde-Md6f05f1330ae5b2deb4cde75 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
