Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- Well Joshua Tinnin if you are waiting have a nice wait. I do not think Dr. Poley is going to be your step and fetch it. His intellectual level is well over your head - so have a nice wait Bagal Hole 2. You are ridiculous.Have a nice wait..cannot imagine Dr. Poley wasting any more of his valuable time on you. Hey Dr. Poley - you going to waste your time spoon feeding these bagal holes or what? This self-appointed jack ass of all trades and master of none - this leader of men - is waiting for your answer..now you all get busy now, you hear? OSaba A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- 1 Kings, chapter 10 Chapter 22: For the king had at sea a navy of Tharshish with the navy of Hiram: once in three years came the navy of Tharshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, zionists, and peacocks. So here is the creation - zionists and apes walk hand in hand and he beginning of too maybe the origino of the peacock society. Solomon was not so wise at that was he to bring apes and zionists to a civilized society for now we have what is referred to in more polite quarters, as The Planet of the Apes in USA. OSaba A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- Well Joshua Tinnin you would be a home in Georgia nowcan see you out there stomping for those negros this oh so refined respected family for one even headed up what was once the Democrat Party? Got a little scam going there. I think you are one big ignoramus and your theories, really Joshua Tinnin, are not original nor are they conclusive. Let me know when you come up with something original and please, like Steve Wingate who got called down for plagiarism of a few brains on a more scientific list - when you quote from Darwin or others of prominence please divulge your sources. Tell me have you ever come up with anything original in your life? Georgia is just the place for you - you would fit in nicely but better duck when the bullets start flying for it might be difficult for you for you will get it from both sides. now go back with your little friends and play - and look up the word plagiarism in the dictionary before you continue on. But please try to come up with something original? We all studied Darwin in high school and college - and this is where we learned why Albert Einstein spent so much time working in a Patent Office where he lifted a lot of original ideas and plans from others? Now go ahead and spellcheck this and edit it for me if you have the time; for I do not. No doubt when we find out who is in this body part business in Georgia it will lead to Florida - and a few cemetaries down there..maybe you think it is alright for a negro to collect pictures of white corpses he was paid to cremate but rather chose to put them on a computer with his pornography? When the war begins call me. OSaba A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- From: saba [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think you are one big ignoramus and your theories, really Joshua Tinnin, are not original nor are they conclusive. You use the 'your ideas are not original' attack quite often, Colleen, so much so that one has to think that you yourself know that nothing you post is original, and therefore originality is a triggerpoint for you... As has been pointed out, your posts consist only of it has been said while never providing documentation for who said it and when it was said, and your continual references to your so-called bible code for which you also never provide documentation... Let me know when you come up with something original And please, Colleen, do likewise...please let us know when one tiny grain of originality occurs in your befuddled thought process... Tell me have you ever come up with anything original in your life? Have YOU, Colleen? Now go ahead and spellcheck this and edit it for me if you have the time; for I do not. So what's taking up all of your time, Colleen? It seems you do nothing else except play with yourself or your WebTV... June A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- Tell me have you ever come up with anything original in your life? Have YOU, Colleen? why is originality even an issue? are we writing fiction or uncovering conspiracies? occam's razor, man. personally, i have no desire to be original; only to find the truth and to prove it as best i can. inri np: http://chat.carleton.ca/~jparent2/ there ought to be limits to freedom - george w. bush if this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as i'm the dictator. - george w. bush i'm not going to let congress erode the power of the executive branch - george w. bush A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- a bat is an intermediate form between a mammal and a bird. Oh really? Says who? A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- An intermediate form is an intermediate form. It proves nothing. correct. however, one of the many things that *do* prove something is the skeletal structure. read on.. The intermediate form of a whale is obvious. Its overall body form is fish-like. It has fin-like flukes..FORM like a fish. That proves: (a) fish became whales (b) whales became fish (c) both of the above (d) neither of the above none of that is relevant, and the accepted theory right now says that the answer is d. a whale has fins, yes, but underneath those fins are fingers; something that no fish has. therefore it cannot have much of anything at all to do with fish. as i ponted out earlier, however, a whale may be an intermediate form into an entirely new life form. we'll just have to wait to find out. the point here is that no respectable biologist is going to look at a whale and say hey! it looks like a fish, so it must be an intermediate form because, as you've pointed out, this is not good science. however, studying bone structures and vestigal features is.within the framework of the existing theory. theory + evidence = conclusion. do you have a better explanation of why the skeletal structure of a whale resembles a land mammal? why it has finger and toe bones underneath it's fins? It doesn't prove anything. Valid science is rational-empirical. What we observe (empiricism) is fish and whales and some creatures like whales whose morphology is intermediate. .. Scientism is both religious and scientific quackery. agreed to some extent. i'm just pointing out that some (most) of your science is wrong. To reason out (ie rationally) connect fish and whales by intermediate form you need a mechanism. It isn't small horses asses becoming big horse's asses that gives you the mechanism. in this case, there is no mechanism, because it conflicts with the fossil record. That is called selection (natural or artificial). not to get from fish to whales, it's not. It works well for horse's asses. that it does. But you need a horse's ass to start with and apply selection to. Wings and legs and such are NEW forms. that they are. You can apply artificial selection very well in the lab. It will give you bigger or smaller fins or flukes. that it will. It won't turn a fin into a leg. That requires a mechanism like MUTATION or GENETIC ENGINEERING. Mutation, as explained already doesn't work because it is almost always deleterious and even the few adaptive mutations are small in effect. but if you add them all up over time, they are very large in effect. for example, giraffes used to have short necks. once in a while a giraffe with a slightly larger neck would be born and they'd get more food that way. in time, the shorter neck giraffes died out and we're now stuck with the larger necked ones. that doesn't mean that one day a giraffe with a neck three times longer than his/her parents was born and that was that. evolution is a slow process that has added up over billions of years. mutations themselves are very, very rare; but that's ok because most evolution is actually accomplished through variation, which i'm sure you can identify as extremely common. Yes it is usually random as someone else posted. That is why Darwinism predicts a fossil record littered with mutations gone wrong. They aren't there! yes, they are. do some research. The fossil record looks more like a GENETIC ENGINEER HAS BEEN AT WORK. It looks more like intelligent design. tell that to your neighbourhood platypus. inri np: http://chat.carleton.ca/~jparent2/ there ought to be limits to freedom - george w. bush if this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as i'm the dictator. - george w. bush i'm not going to let congress erode the power of the executive branch - george w. bush A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, Nessie SFBG wrote: a bat is an intermediate form between a mammal and a bird. Oh really? Says who? The English language...by definition. And BTW, where are all the failed bone structures of bat wings in the fossil record as Darwinian evolution would predict? POC A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, inri wrote: the point here is that no respectable biologist is going to look at a whale and say hey! it looks like a fish, so it must be an intermediate form because, as you've pointed out, this is not good science. That's right. It is not good science. But Discovery keeps telling us about a reptile fossil with what looks like feathered wings which the priesthood of Scientism gets ecstatic about. They say, hey! it looks like a bird, so it must be an intermediate form. Well, it is intermediate in form defined by how it looks. But that doesn't prove a thing about reptiles evolving into birds any more than a fossil of a bat would prove that mammals evolved into birds. POC A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- No thanks. That's what the pope said when Galileo handed him the telescope. A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- the point here is that no respectable biologist is going to look at a whale and say hey! it looks like a fish, so it must be an intermediate form because, as you've pointed out, this is not good science. That's right. It is not good science. But Discovery keeps telling us about a reptile fossil with what looks like feathered wings which the priesthood of Scientism gets ecstatic about. They say, hey! it looks like a bird, so it must be an intermediate form. archaeopteryx? Well, it is intermediate in form defined by how it looks. only partially. the most important part is not the feathers but the skeletal shape, particularly the spinal structure. we can only truly deduce that it must have had feathers. keep in mind that before archaeopteryx we also had at least one other winged reptile, a pteradactyl, which did not have feathers. one point at a time, and it all makes sense... But that doesn't prove a thing about reptiles evolving into birds any more than a fossil of a bat would prove that mammals evolved into birds. no, but the skeletons are pretty convincing... inri np: http://chat.carleton.ca/~jparent2/ there ought to be limits to freedom - george w. bush if this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as i'm the dictator. - george w. bush i'm not going to let congress erode the power of the executive branch - george w. bush A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, inri wrote: Well, it is intermediate in form defined by how it looks. only partially. the most important part is not the feathers but the skeletal shape, particularly the spinal structure. we can only truly deduce that it must have had feathers. keep in mind that before archaeopteryx we also had at least one other winged reptile, a pteradactyl, which did not have feathers. one point at a time, and it all makes sense... Only to those blind believers in the religion of Scientism. POC A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, inri wrote: But that doesn't prove a thing about reptiles evolving into birds any more than a fossil of a bat would prove that mammals evolved into birds. no, but the skeletons are pretty convincing... The bat skeletal wing is a perfect wing. But it proves nothing about evolution. Even if a reptile has perfect feathers that also proves nothing about evolution. POC A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- Dr. Poley - what do you think about this Thalimonide back on market - causing birth defects. Babies born with virtually little wings? Like a step in the evolution of man was virtually wiped out. As George Wallace used to say, redbirds had redbirds, bluebirds have bluebirds, and no doubt bats have bats, and moles have moles for each of these species still exist. Now there are sitll lizards and reptiles and note we still have monkies. Always like that Darwin stuff and a line from Elmer Gantry - whereas Darwin said we descend from monkies yet the bible said man made in God's image. Blue eyed parents cannot produce a brown eyed child. Two blue eyed parents if I am correct and the mother has a brown eyed child, well - a miracle? OSaba And so blacks have blacks, white people produce white people - and black and white people turn out Whoopie Goldberg and Al Sharptons. A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, thew wrote: on 3/17/02 11:55 PM, Party of Citizens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, thew wrote: on 3/17/02 9:27 PM, Party of Citizens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, inri wrote: For example a bat is an intermediate form between a mammal and a bird. That doesn't prove mammals evolved into birds. nor would anybody suggest that they did. Then why do you assume that birds and mammals evolved from reptiles? POC Best guess, based on what we know, with the fewest unproved assumptions? Guessing is guessing. Some guessing is closer to the truth , because it is based on observation. What we observe is intermediate forms by definition...FORMS which are intermediate between major groupings of species like reptiles, fishes, birds, mammals etc. There is no guessing in that. But the FORMS which are intermediate point as much to evolutionary directions which are not acceptable to the darwinian speculation as they do to darwinism. For example, is an insect with large wings like a big butterfly an evolutionary step to a bird? It is an intermediate FORM by definition. (that's called scientific method) Guessing pushed with arrogant dogma (ie We priests of Scientism MUST be right and those who say otherwise are crackpots...previously heretics) is the worst excess of bad religion. Agreed. It ain't science. An intermediate form is an intermediate form. It proves nothing. The intermediate form of a whale is obvious. Its overall body form is fish-like. It has fin-like flukes..FORM like a fish. That proves: (a) fish became whales (b) whales became fish (c) both of the above (d) neither of the above d It doesn't prove anything. Valid science is rational-empirical. What we observe (empiricism) is fish and whales and some creatures like whales whose morphology is intermediate. Sorry - its late ... Which creatures are in this 3rd category? There are various kinds of intermediates. Most don't point in the direction darwinism would like. Another problem is that darwinism predicts a long SERIES of intermediate forms with mutational failures in the fossil record. The fossil record is known well enough now that we can be sure it isn't going to be found. Scientism is both religious and scientific quackery. To reason out (ie rationally) connect fish and whales by intermediate form you need a mechanism. You need a huge mechanism to get from fish to whales - you need amphibians and land mammals for instance. The standard darwinian teaching is that MUTATION is the mechanism. Mutation has the problem I already described. It is easy to mutate in the lab. But the mutations are almost always failures. Last night I saw an anatomical freak on ed tv, a human skull with a horn like a cow's horn. A mutation? Possibly. The fossil record should be littered with such mutational failures according to darwinism. BUT IT IS NOT. POC It isn't small horses asses becoming big horse's asses that gives you the mechanism. That is called selection (natural or artificial). It works well for horse's asses. But you need a horse's ass to start with and apply selection to. Wings and legs and such are NEW forms. You can apply artificial selection very well in the lab. It will give you bigger or smaller fins or flukes. It won't turn a fin into a leg. That requires a mechanism like MUTATION or GENETIC ENGINEERING. Mutation, as explained already doesn't work because it is almost always deleterious and even the few adaptive mutations are small in effect. 2 fallacies I don¹t think you quite grasp how long a billion years is, and how much can be done in that time with trial and error. The 2nd is a subset of the 1st. Yes most mutations are deleterious. (note that mutations etc must be judged in light of their specific environment - a tail that is flatter may help more in the water than the dessert etc) But given BILLIONS of generations, even a small percentage of mutations that are advantageous ( in their environment) can lead to large changes. Yes it is usually random as someone else posted. That is why Darwinism predicts a fossil record littered with mutations gone wrong. They aren't there! The fossil record looks more like a GENETIC ENGINEER HAS BEEN AT WORK. It looks more like intelligent design. WE have tons of fossils of mutations that did not work out - every extinct animal is an example. There are not that many fossils out there compared to the amount of life on the planet - the number of tyrannosaurs found number in the low double digits - the gaps are hugs... Its like a book with 80 % of the pages missing, and the letters on the remaining pages are all scrambled and half erased. It only looks like intelligent design in retrospect, or to those who need a amorphous night light to help them sleep. POC -- -
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- on 3/18/02 2:33 PM, Party of Citizens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And BTW, where are all the failed bone structures of bat wings in the fossil record as Darwinian evolution would predict? POC What failed forms? bats are successful It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error. Justice Robert H. Jackson NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- Blue eyed parents cannot produce a brown eyed child. Two blue eyed parents if I am correct and the mother has a brown eyed child, well - a miracle? no. eye colour is one of the genes that is recessive/dominant.or maybe co-dominant? two blue eyed parents can have brown eyed offspring if one of their recent ancestors [i don't how far back it goes] had brown eyes. that being said, if both parents have blue eyed ancestors going all the way back then the chances are very slim. but if both blue eyed parents had one blue eyed grandparent [of the child] and one brown eyed grandparent then i believe the chances are 50/50. inri np: http://chat.carleton.ca/~jparent2/ there ought to be limits to freedom - george w. bush if this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as i'm the dictator. - george w. bush i'm not going to let congress erode the power of the executive branch - george w. bush A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- [note -- posting this to [EMAIL PROTECTED] as well for discussion purposes - Frank, et al - the regular CTRL email list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] only allows five posts per member per day, and is preferred for posting information and articles - the [EMAIL PROTECTED] group (populated by most of the people here, and started as an offshoot of this group) allows for unlimited posting and is better used for crosstalk and discussion. It would help if this discussion could move to yahoogroups.] I am still waiting for FWP (POC) to present any evidence which supports creationism. No, the Bible nor other religious texts do not count. Neither do unstudied and largely unscientific criticisms of evolution. Don't like the evolution theories, Frank? Then provide a better one, and it doesn't fly when you say, Anyone can see some intelligent design here, as that is presupposition and faith-based thinking, and it doesn't pass the bullshit test. Seeing as you refused to read thew's very relevant links which provided ample evidence against your arguments, and yet you still found the time to use ad hominem against that person, I rather doubt that you can accomplish this. - jt A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- on 3/17/02 6:01 PM, Party of Citizens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Start here: 29 Evidences for Macroevolution http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html If that¹s too much try this: Introduction to Evolutionary Biology http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html Do you want me to find the little pictures of the tiny horsies becoming big horsies for you? -- -- -- -- -- - -- - -- -- - - - - -- --- -- - - - - -- - - - -- -- - -- - Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions. Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, thew wrote: on 3/17/02 6:01 PM, Party of Citizens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Start here: 29 Evidences for Macroevolution http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html If that¹s too much try this: Introduction to Evolutionary Biology http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html Do you want me to find the little pictures of the tiny horsies becoming big horsies for you? No thanks. You've already given me a picture of a small horse's ass becoming a big horse's ass. How does genetic selection for a trait refute my point which is that successful MUTATION is a sine qua non of Darwinism yet it has not yet been proven to be a fact of life? POC A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- For example a bat is an intermediate form between a mammal and a bird. That doesn't prove mammals evolved into birds. nor would anybody suggest that they did. birds, like mammals, evolved from reptiles; an intermediate form would be the pteradactyl, which is in the fossil record. it is a reptile with wings. fish with legs? they're in there. the closest thing we have left are salamanders and frogs; ie. amphibians. actually, there's a fish with stumps too - a mudslipper is it? mudhopper? something like that. it can survive on (moist) land for short amounts of time but is still a fish. any first year biology course will be quick to point out other intermediate species still around - the lungfish, etc.. Whales are intermediate in form between mammals and fish. That doesn't prove mammals evolve into fish or vice-versa. whales and dolphins are thought to have evolved from what is also a common ancestor of a horse or gazelle and this is in the fossil record. a whale is *not* an intermediate form between a fish and a mammal; it is a mammal that became aquatic due to some reason and may be an intermediate form into something that we don't really know about yet. they're fairly recent creatures on the evolutionary time scale. check out the aquatic ape theory. The priests of Scientism are more dogmatic than a medieval pope. Next, try asking them about the fact that light speed is not constant it is if you factor in the effects of the medium. nobody has claimed that light travels at a constant speed, only at a constant speed in a uniform medium, which is impossible outside of a vaccuum. a very subtle point but a very, very important one. and ask them to give hard data of one case proving empirically that E=Mc2! it *is* a mathematical relationeasily provable using little more than the conservation laws...but.how about an atomic explosion? they can't measure it exactly but they can deduce that it's at least pretty close. although i do have to sympathize with this, as i've made clear in the past. especially with theoretical physics and chemistry, which are often times based on derived formulas that are perfectly mathematically consistent but impossible to experimentally verify. inri np: http://chat.carleton.ca/~jparent2/ there ought to be limits to freedom - george w. bush if this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as i'm the dictator. - george w. bush i'm not going to let congress erode the power of the executive branch - george w. bush A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, inri wrote: For example a bat is an intermediate form between a mammal and a bird. That doesn't prove mammals evolved into birds. nor would anybody suggest that they did. Then why do you assume that birds and mammals evolved from reptiles? POC birds, like mammals, evolved from reptiles; an intermediate form would be the pteradactyl, which is in the fossil record. it is a reptile with wings. A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- on 3/17/02 9:27 PM, Party of Citizens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, inri wrote: For example a bat is an intermediate form between a mammal and a bird. That doesn't prove mammals evolved into birds. nor would anybody suggest that they did. Then why do you assume that birds and mammals evolved from reptiles? POC Best guess, based on what we know, with the fewest unproved assumptions? (that's called scientific method) birds, like mammals, evolved from reptiles; an intermediate form would be the pteradactyl, which is in the fossil record. it is a reptile with wings. Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate William of Occam NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- Do you want me to find the little pictures of the tiny horsies becoming big horsies for you? No thanks. You've already given me a picture of a small horse's ass becoming a big horse's ass. How does genetic selection for a trait refute my point which is that successful MUTATION is a sine qua non of Darwinism yet it has not yet been proven to be a fact of life? mutation is completely random. you can neither predict it nor create an experiment that will create it. inri np: http://chat.carleton.ca/~jparent2/ there ought to be limits to freedom - george w. bush if this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as i'm the dictator. - george w. bush i'm not going to let congress erode the power of the executive branch - george w. bush A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- For example a bat is an intermediate form between a mammal and a bird. That doesn't prove mammals evolved into birds. nor would anybody suggest that they did. Then why do you assume that birds and mammals evolved from reptiles? because that's what the evidence in the fossil record implies. see, it's a linear equation. theory + evidence = conclusion; and it's not just useful in science! inri np: http://chat.carleton.ca/~jparent2/ there ought to be limits to freedom - george w. bush if this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as i'm the dictator. - george w. bush i'm not going to let congress erode the power of the executive branch - george w. bush A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, thew wrote: on 3/17/02 9:27 PM, Party of Citizens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, inri wrote: For example a bat is an intermediate form between a mammal and a bird. That doesn't prove mammals evolved into birds. nor would anybody suggest that they did. Then why do you assume that birds and mammals evolved from reptiles? POC Best guess, based on what we know, with the fewest unproved assumptions? Guessing is guessing. (that's called scientific method) Guessing pushed with arrogant dogma (ie We priests of Scientism MUST be right and those who say otherwise are crackpots...previously heretics) is the worst excess of bad religion. An intermediate form is an intermediate form. It proves nothing. The intermediate form of a whale is obvious. Its overall body form is fish-like. It has fin-like flukes..FORM like a fish. That proves: (a) fish became whales (b) whales became fish (c) both of the above (d) neither of the above It doesn't prove anything. Valid science is rational-empirical. What we observe (empiricism) is fish and whales and some creatures like whales whose morphology is intermediate. Scientism is both religious and scientific quackery. To reason out (ie rationally) connect fish and whales by intermediate form you need a mechanism. It isn't small horses asses becoming big horse's asses that gives you the mechanism. That is called selection (natural or artificial). It works well for horse's asses. But you need a horse's ass to start with and apply selection to. Wings and legs and such are NEW forms. You can apply artificial selection very well in the lab. It will give you bigger or smaller fins or flukes. It won't turn a fin into a leg. That requires a mechanism like MUTATION or GENETIC ENGINEERING. Mutation, as explained already doesn't work because it is almost always deleterious and even the few adaptive mutations are small in effect. Yes it is usually random as someone else posted. That is why Darwinism predicts a fossil record littered with mutations gone wrong. They aren't there! The fossil record looks more like a GENETIC ENGINEER HAS BEEN AT WORK. It looks more like intelligent design. POC A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, inri wrote: Do you want me to find the little pictures of the tiny horsies becoming big horsies for you? No thanks. You've already given me a picture of a small horse's ass becoming a big horse's ass. How does genetic selection for a trait refute my point which is that successful MUTATION is a sine qua non of Darwinism yet it has not yet been proven to be a fact of life? mutation is completely random. you can neither predict it nor create an experiment that will create it. That's the problem. It is random and so you can't predict that mutations to the bones of fish for example are going to give you legs. Mutations aren't purposive as a genetic engineer might be in a hundred years when genes for legs are successfully spliced into fish or clams or whatever. Mutations are easily induced in the lab. But they are random and more than that, they are almost always bad news. So where are the PREDICTED failures in the fossil record which should (according to Darwinian theory) be replete with failures? The fossil record looks more like a genetic engineer has been at work, a creative scientist with a purpose in mind, a person with an intelligent design. POC A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Scientism Religious Conspiracy
-Caveat Lector- on 3/17/02 11:55 PM, Party of Citizens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, thew wrote: on 3/17/02 9:27 PM, Party of Citizens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 17 Mar 2002, inri wrote: For example a bat is an intermediate form between a mammal and a bird. That doesn't prove mammals evolved into birds. nor would anybody suggest that they did. Then why do you assume that birds and mammals evolved from reptiles? POC Best guess, based on what we know, with the fewest unproved assumptions? Guessing is guessing. Some guessing is closer to the truth , because it is based on observation. (that's called scientific method) Guessing pushed with arrogant dogma (ie We priests of Scientism MUST be right and those who say otherwise are crackpots...previously heretics) is the worst excess of bad religion. Agreed. It ain't science. An intermediate form is an intermediate form. It proves nothing. The intermediate form of a whale is obvious. Its overall body form is fish-like. It has fin-like flukes..FORM like a fish. That proves: (a) fish became whales (b) whales became fish (c) both of the above (d) neither of the above d It doesn't prove anything. Valid science is rational-empirical. What we observe (empiricism) is fish and whales and some creatures like whales whose morphology is intermediate. Sorry - its late ... Which creatures are in this 3rd category? Scientism is both religious and scientific quackery. To reason out (ie rationally) connect fish and whales by intermediate form you need a mechanism. You need a huge mechanism to get from fish to whales - you need amphibians and land mammals for instance. It isn't small horses asses becoming big horse's asses that gives you the mechanism. That is called selection (natural or artificial). It works well for horse's asses. But you need a horse's ass to start with and apply selection to. Wings and legs and such are NEW forms. You can apply artificial selection very well in the lab. It will give you bigger or smaller fins or flukes. It won't turn a fin into a leg. That requires a mechanism like MUTATION or GENETIC ENGINEERING. Mutation, as explained already doesn't work because it is almost always deleterious and even the few adaptive mutations are small in effect. 2 fallacies I don¹t think you quite grasp how long a billion years is, and how much can be done in that time with trial and error. The 2nd is a subset of the 1st. Yes most mutations are deleterious. (note that mutations etc must be judged in light of their specific environment - a tail that is flatter may help more in the water than the dessert etc) But given BILLIONS of generations, even a small percentage of mutations that are advantageous ( in their environment) can lead to large changes. Yes it is usually random as someone else posted. That is why Darwinism predicts a fossil record littered with mutations gone wrong. They aren't there! The fossil record looks more like a GENETIC ENGINEER HAS BEEN AT WORK. It looks more like intelligent design. WE have tons of fossils of mutations that did not work out - every extinct animal is an example. There are not that many fossils out there compared to the amount of life on the planet - the number of tyrannosaurs found number in the low double digits - the gaps are hugs... Its like a book with 80 % of the pages missing, and the letters on the remaining pages are all scrambled and half erased. It only looks like intelligent design in retrospect, or to those who need a amorphous night light to help them sleep. POC -- - --- -- --- -- Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is a force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action. George Washington NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF=http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html;Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/;ctrl/A
