[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2021-05-09 Thread Jeremy Stanley 
On 2021-05-07 15:21:36 -0400 (-0400), Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
> I figure now's a good time to revive this question, so that the new
> packaging community/project manager
> https://pyfound.blogspot.com/2021/04/the-psf-is-hiring-python-packaging.html
> can have a cleaner slate and potentially have fewer things to subscribe to
> when they come in!
[...]

On a whim I created an account on discuss.python.org and set my
preferences to enable mailing list mode. I'm assuming the
"packaging" category is the intended modern analog of the
distutils-sig mailing list, is that correct? Is there a guide for
former mailing list users moving to Discuss, which covers things
like limiting the subscription to a particular category or list of
categories, or how to construct your messages so that they end up in
the correct category when posting via E-mail?

More generally, is E-mail-only interaction with Discuss working well
for others?
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2021-05-07 Thread Sumana Harihareswara 
I figure now's a good time to revive this question, so that the new 
packaging community/project manager 
https://pyfound.blogspot.com/2021/04/the-psf-is-hiring-python-packaging.html 
can have a cleaner slate and potentially have fewer things to subscribe 
to when they come in!


On 7/29/20 9:47 PM, Pradyun Gedam wrote:
Over the last year, the Packaging category on discuss.python.org 
 had 841

active topics, with only 40 topics with 3 or fewer responses. [^5]
In the last 100 days, the Packaging category on discuss.python.org 
 has

had 91 active topics. More than 10 PEPs have been discussed in the
Packaging category on discuss.python.org  in 
the last 100 days.


Over the last year, distutils-sig had ~109 active threads, with
(based on a quick skim) most having 3 or fewer responses/posters. [^4]
In the last 100 days, distutils-sig has had 32 active threads (at least
7 of these have the same subject as another thread with Re:/Fwd: added).
There has been only 1 PEP-related feedback discussion on distutils-sig
in the last year. Most of the other threads are user support requests or
announcements.
May I ask for you (or someone) to please re-run these stats for the past 
year? If the traffic decline on distutils-sig has continued then I would 
like to re-start the discussion period Pradyun suggested.


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[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-08-05 Thread Paul Moore 
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 at 00:12, Oscar Benjamin  wrote:
>
> On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 23:03, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 8:41 AM Wes Turner  wrote:
> >>
> >> I confess that I don't even know how to subscribe to all threads of a 
> >> discourse.
> >>
> >> - [ ] How to subscribe to all threads of discourse
> >
> > Go to the category you care about, e.g. 
> > https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14, and if you look in the right 
> > side next to "+ New Topic" you will see a bell. you can click that and 
> > choose to what level you want to follow new topics (only new threads, 
> > notification of all comments, direct notification of all comments, etc.).
>
> What I haven't quite got my head around is: what exactly is the
> "workflow" with discourse if you are a regular follower/contributor on
> some forum?
>
> Do people who use it a lot begin by going to the forum website?

This is what I do, personally. For me, the email integration sucks, so
I turned it off completely. I set the "Latest" view as my default
view, visit the site regularly (I have it as a second tab alongside my
gmail tab) and click on any topics showing as having new content. I
suppress any categories that I don't want to see (like "Users").

It's not very sophisticated, but my usage of email isn't that
sophisticated either :-)

> Do they get the email notifications and interact via those?

No, as I say I find the emails pretty bad, so I don't use them at all.

> I've been working with discourse in the latter mode and from that
> perspective it seems inferior. If the expectation is that I have to
> begin by going to the website then that changes my fundamental
> approach. Right now I subscribe to many mailing lists and they all
> route to an IMAP folder. When I feel like browsing them I can go in
> and skim messages from a wide variety of mailing lists.

I initially found having to use 2 sites (gmail and Discourse) a
nuisance. Now, it's a minor inconvenience.

> The other process seems to be that I begin by choosing to go to the
> discourse forum website in order to look at messages in a particular
> forum that I actively choose to look at at that particular time. If
> that's the case then I would inevitably end up following fewer mailing
> lists/forums since each one requires a momentary active decision from
> me to read that particular list. I can imagine that that might reduce
> the wider participation that is a big part of the purpose of these
> lists. Maybe other people would be more likely to follow things that
> way but I certainly wouldn't.

That's certainly a valid concern. I only really use Discourse for the
one "list", the packaging list (I see others, but they are low traffic
- as I said, I hide "Users", which may be high-traffic, I don't know).
I've expressed my concern that I think Discourse could scale badly if
it became high traffic in multiple categories, but at the moment it
feels to me like mostly Packaging-related with a bit of other content,
and I can cope with that.

Paul
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[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-08-04 Thread Brett Cannon 
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 4:46 PM Wes Turner  wrote:

> How to subscribe to all threads of discourse
>
> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 6:02 PM Brett Cannon  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 8:41 AM Wes Turner  wrote:
>>
>>> I confess that I don't even know how to subscribe to all threads of a
>>> discourse.
>>>
>>> - [ ] How to subscribe to all threads of discourse
>>>
>>
>> Go to the category you care about, e.g.
>> https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14, and if you look in the right
>> side next to "+ New Topic" you will see a bell. you can click that and
>> choose to what level you want to follow new topics (only new threads,
>> notification of all comments, direct notification of all comments, etc.).
>>
>> -Brett
>>
>
> 1. Go to the category page: e.g. https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14
> 2. Click the bell at the top right
> 3. Select "Watching"
>
> Does this send a new email whenever someone edits a post that's already
> been emailed out?
>

No idea. I use the website exclusively.

-Brett


>
> (edit) If you change your notification settings for a particular thread by
> clicking on the bell, that setting is independent of your category-level
> setting. So, you can "Watching" all on the category and "Mute" a particular
> thread or vice-versa.
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> So, I'd miss security or release announcements only posted to discourse
>>> and not distutils-sig (or pypa-dev, which IMHO has the more appropriate
>>> scope name in that packaging and PyPI are somewhat inseparable)
>>>
>>> Is there some convenient way to cryptographically-sign Discourse posts?
>>> Maybe with e.g. OpenPGP.js? Or is that unnecessary these days.
>>>
>>> Discourse in Python would be great to have.
>>>
>>> https://github.com/discourse/discourse (Rails)
>>>
>>> https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman
>>>
>>> https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius (Django)
>>>
>>> Having mailing list discussions archived in one's searchable inbox is
>>> underrated, IMHO
>>>
>>> Being able to link to specific messages within a thread using permalinks
>>> is very useful; though most won't even read it
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:24 AM Jeremy Stanley  wrote:
>>>
 On 2020-07-30 11:51:24 +0100 (+0100), Paul Moore wrote:
 [...]
 > 1. Will dropping distutils-sig mean that people who prefer
 > interacting here lose their voice in packaging discussions?

 Probably not. I think the fact that most of the list's prior
 conversation has already moved to Discourse means this is already
 the case, and so closing this ML is probably more a reflection of
 the reality that those voices are effectively absent in relevant
 conversations now.

 > 2. Will having one fewer "recommended place" to start discussions
 > make it easier for new participants to get involved?
 [...]

 Maybe. But as I've seen in many other communities, discussions start
 organically in a variety of places and platforms, and are rarely
 constrained by community consensus "recommendations" of venue.
 --
 Jeremy Stanley
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>>>
>>
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[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-08-04 Thread Wes Turner 
How to subscribe to all threads of discourse

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 6:02 PM Brett Cannon  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 8:41 AM Wes Turner  wrote:
>
>> I confess that I don't even know how to subscribe to all threads of a
>> discourse.
>>
>> - [ ] How to subscribe to all threads of discourse
>>
>
> Go to the category you care about, e.g.
> https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14, and if you look in the right
> side next to "+ New Topic" you will see a bell. you can click that and
> choose to what level you want to follow new topics (only new threads,
> notification of all comments, direct notification of all comments, etc.).
>
> -Brett
>

1. Go to the category page: e.g. https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14
2. Click the bell at the top right
3. Select "Watching"

Does this send a new email whenever someone edits a post that's already
been emailed out?

(edit) If you change your notification settings for a particular thread by
clicking on the bell, that setting is independent of your category-level
setting. So, you can "Watching" all on the category and "Mute" a particular
thread or vice-versa.


>
>
>>
>> So, I'd miss security or release announcements only posted to discourse
>> and not distutils-sig (or pypa-dev, which IMHO has the more appropriate
>> scope name in that packaging and PyPI are somewhat inseparable)
>>
>> Is there some convenient way to cryptographically-sign Discourse posts?
>> Maybe with e.g. OpenPGP.js? Or is that unnecessary these days.
>>
>> Discourse in Python would be great to have.
>>
>> https://github.com/discourse/discourse (Rails)
>>
>> https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman
>>
>> https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius (Django)
>>
>> Having mailing list discussions archived in one's searchable inbox is
>> underrated, IMHO
>>
>> Being able to link to specific messages within a thread using permalinks
>> is very useful; though most won't even read it
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:24 AM Jeremy Stanley  wrote:
>>
>>> On 2020-07-30 11:51:24 +0100 (+0100), Paul Moore wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> > 1. Will dropping distutils-sig mean that people who prefer
>>> > interacting here lose their voice in packaging discussions?
>>>
>>> Probably not. I think the fact that most of the list's prior
>>> conversation has already moved to Discourse means this is already
>>> the case, and so closing this ML is probably more a reflection of
>>> the reality that those voices are effectively absent in relevant
>>> conversations now.
>>>
>>> > 2. Will having one fewer "recommended place" to start discussions
>>> > make it easier for new participants to get involved?
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Maybe. But as I've seen in many other communities, discussions start
>>> organically in a variety of places and platforms, and are rarely
>>> constrained by community consensus "recommendations" of venue.
>>> --
>>> Jeremy Stanley
>>> --
>>> Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-le...@python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/
>>> Message archived at
>>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/PCUVODMMWRAPGXA6PUJ5KHE5YU23T42O/
>>>
>> --
>> Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-le...@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/
>> Message archived at
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>>
>
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[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-08-04 Thread Nathaniel Smith 
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 4:13 PM Oscar Benjamin
 wrote:
> What I haven't quite got my head around is: what exactly is the
> "workflow" with discourse if you are a regular follower/contributor on
> some forum?
>
> Do people who use it a lot begin by going to the forum website?
>
> Do they get the email notifications and interact via those?

I think it varies. I get email notifications, and then usually go to
the website when I want to reply, unless it's just 1-2 lines. IIRC
Donald sticks to the website only. Another mode that discourse is good
at is the "digest" approach where it sends you a weekly summary and
then you can go to the website if you want to follow up on anything.

-n

-- 
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[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-08-04 Thread Oscar Benjamin 
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 23:03, Brett Cannon  wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 8:41 AM Wes Turner  wrote:
>>
>> I confess that I don't even know how to subscribe to all threads of a 
>> discourse.
>>
>> - [ ] How to subscribe to all threads of discourse
>
> Go to the category you care about, e.g. 
> https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14, and if you look in the right side 
> next to "+ New Topic" you will see a bell. you can click that and choose to 
> what level you want to follow new topics (only new threads, notification of 
> all comments, direct notification of all comments, etc.).

What I haven't quite got my head around is: what exactly is the
"workflow" with discourse if you are a regular follower/contributor on
some forum?

Do people who use it a lot begin by going to the forum website?

Do they get the email notifications and interact via those?

I've been working with discourse in the latter mode and from that
perspective it seems inferior. If the expectation is that I have to
begin by going to the website then that changes my fundamental
approach. Right now I subscribe to many mailing lists and they all
route to an IMAP folder. When I feel like browsing them I can go in
and skim messages from a wide variety of mailing lists.

The other process seems to be that I begin by choosing to go to the
discourse forum website in order to look at messages in a particular
forum that I actively choose to look at at that particular time. If
that's the case then I would inevitably end up following fewer mailing
lists/forums since each one requires a momentary active decision from
me to read that particular list. I can imagine that that might reduce
the wider participation that is a big part of the purpose of these
lists. Maybe other people would be more likely to follow things that
way but I certainly wouldn't.


Oscar
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[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-08-04 Thread Brett Cannon 
On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 8:41 AM Wes Turner  wrote:

> I confess that I don't even know how to subscribe to all threads of a
> discourse.
>
> - [ ] How to subscribe to all threads of discourse
>

Go to the category you care about, e.g.
https://discuss.python.org/c/packaging/14, and if you look in the right
side next to "+ New Topic" you will see a bell. you can click that and
choose to what level you want to follow new topics (only new threads,
notification of all comments, direct notification of all comments, etc.).

-Brett


>
> So, I'd miss security or release announcements only posted to discourse
> and not distutils-sig (or pypa-dev, which IMHO has the more appropriate
> scope name in that packaging and PyPI are somewhat inseparable)
>
> Is there some convenient way to cryptographically-sign Discourse posts?
> Maybe with e.g. OpenPGP.js? Or is that unnecessary these days.
>
> Discourse in Python would be great to have.
>
> https://github.com/discourse/discourse (Rails)
>
> https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman
>
> https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius (Django)
>
> Having mailing list discussions archived in one's searchable inbox is
> underrated, IMHO
>
> Being able to link to specific messages within a thread using permalinks
> is very useful; though most won't even read it
>
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:24 AM Jeremy Stanley  wrote:
>
>> On 2020-07-30 11:51:24 +0100 (+0100), Paul Moore wrote:
>> [...]
>> > 1. Will dropping distutils-sig mean that people who prefer
>> > interacting here lose their voice in packaging discussions?
>>
>> Probably not. I think the fact that most of the list's prior
>> conversation has already moved to Discourse means this is already
>> the case, and so closing this ML is probably more a reflection of
>> the reality that those voices are effectively absent in relevant
>> conversations now.
>>
>> > 2. Will having one fewer "recommended place" to start discussions
>> > make it easier for new participants to get involved?
>> [...]
>>
>> Maybe. But as I've seen in many other communities, discussions start
>> organically in a variety of places and platforms, and are rarely
>> constrained by community consensus "recommendations" of venue.
>> --
>> Jeremy Stanley
>> --
>> Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-le...@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/
>> Message archived at
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/PCUVODMMWRAPGXA6PUJ5KHE5YU23T42O/
>>
> --
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>
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[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-07-30 Thread Wes Turner 
I confess that I don't even know how to subscribe to all threads of a
discourse.

- [ ] How to subscribe to all threads of discourse

So, I'd miss security or release announcements only posted to discourse and
not distutils-sig (or pypa-dev, which IMHO has the more appropriate scope
name in that packaging and PyPI are somewhat inseparable)

Is there some convenient way to cryptographically-sign Discourse posts?
Maybe with e.g. OpenPGP.js? Or is that unnecessary these days.

Discourse in Python would be great to have.

https://github.com/discourse/discourse (Rails)

https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman

https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius (Django)

Having mailing list discussions archived in one's searchable inbox is
underrated, IMHO

Being able to link to specific messages within a thread using permalinks is
very useful; though most won't even read it

On Thu, Jul 30, 2020, 8:24 AM Jeremy Stanley  wrote:

> On 2020-07-30 11:51:24 +0100 (+0100), Paul Moore wrote:
> [...]
> > 1. Will dropping distutils-sig mean that people who prefer
> > interacting here lose their voice in packaging discussions?
>
> Probably not. I think the fact that most of the list's prior
> conversation has already moved to Discourse means this is already
> the case, and so closing this ML is probably more a reflection of
> the reality that those voices are effectively absent in relevant
> conversations now.
>
> > 2. Will having one fewer "recommended place" to start discussions
> > make it easier for new participants to get involved?
> [...]
>
> Maybe. But as I've seen in many other communities, discussions start
> organically in a variety of places and platforms, and are rarely
> constrained by community consensus "recommendations" of venue.
> --
> Jeremy Stanley
> --
> Distutils-SIG mailing list -- distutils-sig@python.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to distutils-sig-le...@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/distutils-sig.python.org/
> Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/distutils-sig@python.org/message/PCUVODMMWRAPGXA6PUJ5KHE5YU23T42O/
>
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[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-07-30 Thread Jeremy Stanley 
On 2020-07-30 12:16:17 + (+), Jeremy Stanley wrote:
[...]
> I'll be less likely to find out tidbits like Setuptools 20.3 in
> October turning on the new dep solver
[...]

Er, clearly I meant pip. ;)

Also thanks for sending an update about it to the pypi-announce ML
just now!
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-07-30 Thread Jeremy Stanley 
On 2020-07-30 11:51:24 +0100 (+0100), Paul Moore wrote:
[...]
> 1. Will dropping distutils-sig mean that people who prefer
> interacting here lose their voice in packaging discussions?

Probably not. I think the fact that most of the list's prior
conversation has already moved to Discourse means this is already
the case, and so closing this ML is probably more a reflection of
the reality that those voices are effectively absent in relevant
conversations now.

> 2. Will having one fewer "recommended place" to start discussions
> make it easier for new participants to get involved?
[...]

Maybe. But as I've seen in many other communities, discussions start
organically in a variety of places and platforms, and are rarely
constrained by community consensus "recommendations" of venue.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-07-30 Thread Jeremy Stanley 
On 2020-07-29 22:51:37 -0400 (-0400), Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
[...]
> Jeremy, I'm not sure whether you were serious? If your
> disappointment is only out of nostalgia, then yeah, accepting
> change makes sense. But if your disappointment is because the
> Discourse experience is/will be worse for your participation, then
> it's totally fine to speak up and tell us how.
[...]

Robert also pretty accurately described my challenges with
Discourse, so I won't bother reiterating his points. I skim a good
1k mailing list messages daily across dozens of other communities
and reply with the press of a key; mailing lists make that workflow
easy compared conversation scattered between lots of different Web
forum sites with mediocre SMTP notification and response, poor
context quoting, et cetera. And I'm the sort of luddite who still
laments that many of these communities didn't stick with Usenet, but
remembering how the spam problem there got so out of control at a
time before we had reasonable technologies to deal with it, I don't
begrudge anyone the decision to abandon it.

Basically I've come to accept that most of the Python packaging
discussions lately have occurred entirely in a place where I've been
unable to follow them and reply easily, and that seems to be the
consensus choice of the Python community so I won't ask others to
cater to my outmoded workflows nor to necessarily value the fluid
sorts of cross-community participation they used to enable. It means
that my voice won't be included often, if ever, and that I'll be
less likely to find out tidbits like Setuptools 20.3 in October
turning on the new dep solver (and that the many projects I'm
involved in ought to test it and follow up with bug reports before
they begin to impact our users). Still, there are plenty of other
places I can spend my time and effort more effectively, so I'm not
particularly bitter about it.

> What if we bridged them, instead? Barry Warsaw in
> https://discuss.python.org/t/disappointed-and-overwhelmed-by-discourse/982/15
> suggested:
> 
> > My ultimate dream would be to add an IMAP and/or NNTP interface
> > directly to [Mailman 3/HyperKitty]. Then I could use my normal
> > mail application to catch up and interact with Mailman lists in
> > a very lightweight way, driven entirely by my own workflow. That
> > plus a Discourse bridge would be a pretty powerful and flexible
> > combination.
> 
> Is that something that other folks here who have trouble with
> Discourse would find fruitful? If so, we can start pushing to make
> it happen.

The idea there wasn't particularly fleshed-out so it's hard to say.
I'm assuming he meant a mechanism for mirroring/proxying
conversations between Discourse and MM3; if so then, yes, that might
help but there's really no way to know without a working prototype.
It also sounds like rather a lot of work and I'm certainly not going
to ask anyone else to expend effort just to cater to my personal
workflows. Discourse is not to my taste, but de gustibus non est
disputandum.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-07-30 Thread Bernat Gabor 
I think it's natural that people on the mailing list will favour the
mailing list over Discourse, just as when asked this question on Discourse
voted for the forum over the mailing list.  Taking a more practical look at
the issue, I want to note that 99% of the discussion about packaging and
its future/peps has happened on the Discourse forum for the last 6 months.
The amount of chatter on this mailing list is almost zero, so having the
mailing list can be confusing to new users, as it might give the wrongful
impression that this is the platform to discuss things, while in practice
it's the Discourse. This is why we were thinking to remove the mailing
list, because active development and design discussion moved off from it.

Bernat

On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 12:39 PM Ian Stapleton Cordasco <
graffatcolmin...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 5:39 AM Robert Collins
>  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 at 14:52, Sumana Harihareswara 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 7/29/20 10:14 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
> >> > On 2020-07-30 07:17:03 +0530 (+0530), Pradyun Gedam wrote:
> >> >> TL;DR: OK to archive this mailing list? Reply by Aug 30th.
> >> > [...]
> >> >
> >> > I find it disappointing that there will no longer be a mailing list
> >> > for discussions of Python packaging. Web forums with some E-mail
> >> > integration are hardly the same. But those of us who still use
> >> > E-mail (and worse, Usenet) eventually need to get out of the way of
> >> > the wheels of progress lest they run us over.
> >> >
> >> > Many thanks to those who have maintained, moderated, and
> >> > collaborated through this list over the years. It has been much
> >> > appreciated.
> >>
> >> Jeremy, I'm not sure whether you were serious? If your disappointment is
> >> only out of nostalgia, then yeah, accepting change makes sense. But if
> >> your disappointment is because the Discourse experience is/will be worse
> >> for your participation, then it's totally fine to speak up and tell us
> how.
> >
> >
> > Discourse requires about 10x the effort to participate in the community.
> It's "mailing list mode" sends garbled fragments of interwoved WYSIWYG
> documents that are unintelligible - I tried it for some months when the
> Pyython Discourse started up but had to turn it off after a while as I
> really couldn't effectively tell what was being said in a conversation that
> comes in via it.
>
> I definitely agree with this.
>
> >
> > And its so siloed, I may as well not be in the conversation at all: I
> have to actively go and log into the website to look and see what new
> conversations are happening, which in my time poor situation just doesn't
> happen. So, for all intents and purposes, I'm not participating in any
> conversation in Discourse at all, except for a rare helicopter drop-in when
> someone pings me on email or Twitter or Slack or Discord to say 'hey, you
> should comment on '.
>
> With email, I don't have to monitor heavily what topics I'm subscribed
> to and if someone starts a discussion I'm uninterested in, I can mute
> it. With Discourse it hasn't respected my desires to unsubscribe from
> a thread's notifications and I still get emails from a thread from
> Rust's Discourse from 2 years ago.
>
> I have generally the same sentiment as Jeremy and Rob though. I'm more
> or less an emeritus member of this community (although I still try to
> collaborate on Twine and keep up with general packaging discussions
> and direction). Things have already started moving to Discourse though
> and surprising me on twine because no one remembered me as part of the
> team. So, Discourse has already made me want to work on Twine less.
>
> I will say that my impression of the ability to moderate Discourse is
> lower friction/less difficult than to moderate a mailing list
> (although mailman 3 is pretty great). I don't think that's a point in
> Discourse's favor to be overlooked.
>
> >
> > I full well recognise the advantage that these properties have when
> dealing with a bulk of (largely) newcomers whose community use case is to
> sample discussion: to find one or two things that have been said previously
> via search, ask some questions to get a problem solved, and then move on.
> >
> > Relatively few of those users will be publishing packages though; even
> with the rise of docker : consuming Python in a local script or workbook is
> still the majority use case I think, so the bulk of the work we do affects
> a (large) fraction of users, and most of those users are experienced by the
> time they need our assistance.
> >
> >> Pradyun, thanks for starting this conversation.
> >>
> >> I am definitely interested in consolidating our conversational channels
> >> and reducing fragmentation, but I have substantial reservations about
> >> taking this particular step:
> >>
> >> * The majority of information overwhelm in my PyPA-related life is
> >> because of GitHub repo and issue sprawl -- if we're going to put energy
> >> into pruning

[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-07-30 Thread Ian Stapleton Cordasco 
On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 5:39 AM Robert Collins
 wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 at 14:52, Sumana Harihareswara  wrote:
>>
>> On 7/29/20 10:14 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
>> > On 2020-07-30 07:17:03 +0530 (+0530), Pradyun Gedam wrote:
>> >> TL;DR: OK to archive this mailing list? Reply by Aug 30th.
>> > [...]
>> >
>> > I find it disappointing that there will no longer be a mailing list
>> > for discussions of Python packaging. Web forums with some E-mail
>> > integration are hardly the same. But those of us who still use
>> > E-mail (and worse, Usenet) eventually need to get out of the way of
>> > the wheels of progress lest they run us over.
>> >
>> > Many thanks to those who have maintained, moderated, and
>> > collaborated through this list over the years. It has been much
>> > appreciated.
>>
>> Jeremy, I'm not sure whether you were serious? If your disappointment is
>> only out of nostalgia, then yeah, accepting change makes sense. But if
>> your disappointment is because the Discourse experience is/will be worse
>> for your participation, then it's totally fine to speak up and tell us how.
>
>
> Discourse requires about 10x the effort to participate in the community. It's 
> "mailing list mode" sends garbled fragments of interwoved WYSIWYG documents 
> that are unintelligible - I tried it for some months when the Pyython 
> Discourse started up but had to turn it off after a while as I really 
> couldn't effectively tell what was being said in a conversation that comes in 
> via it.

I definitely agree with this.

>
> And its so siloed, I may as well not be in the conversation at all: I have to 
> actively go and log into the website to look and see what new conversations 
> are happening, which in my time poor situation just doesn't happen. So, for 
> all intents and purposes, I'm not participating in any conversation in 
> Discourse at all, except for a rare helicopter drop-in when someone pings me 
> on email or Twitter or Slack or Discord to say 'hey, you should comment on 
> '.

With email, I don't have to monitor heavily what topics I'm subscribed
to and if someone starts a discussion I'm uninterested in, I can mute
it. With Discourse it hasn't respected my desires to unsubscribe from
a thread's notifications and I still get emails from a thread from
Rust's Discourse from 2 years ago.

I have generally the same sentiment as Jeremy and Rob though. I'm more
or less an emeritus member of this community (although I still try to
collaborate on Twine and keep up with general packaging discussions
and direction). Things have already started moving to Discourse though
and surprising me on twine because no one remembered me as part of the
team. So, Discourse has already made me want to work on Twine less.

I will say that my impression of the ability to moderate Discourse is
lower friction/less difficult than to moderate a mailing list
(although mailman 3 is pretty great). I don't think that's a point in
Discourse's favor to be overlooked.

>
> I full well recognise the advantage that these properties have when dealing 
> with a bulk of (largely) newcomers whose community use case is to sample 
> discussion: to find one or two things that have been said previously via 
> search, ask some questions to get a problem solved, and then move on.
>
> Relatively few of those users will be publishing packages though; even with 
> the rise of docker : consuming Python in a local script or workbook is still 
> the majority use case I think, so the bulk of the work we do affects a 
> (large) fraction of users, and most of those users are experienced by the 
> time they need our assistance.
>
>> Pradyun, thanks for starting this conversation.
>>
>> I am definitely interested in consolidating our conversational channels
>> and reducing fragmentation, but I have substantial reservations about
>> taking this particular step:
>>
>> * The majority of information overwhelm in my PyPA-related life is
>> because of GitHub repo and issue sprawl -- if we're going to put energy
>> into pruning sprawling communications venues, I would prefer that we
>> spend some time inventorying all the teams, shutting some down, and
>> locking noisy issues/repositories.
>
>
> Agreed with the above.
>
>>
>> * I would like to know, of our ~700 list members, how many of them have
>> serious problems using Discourse -- accessibility, user experience,
>> sheer tech problems, etc. I suspect that we have several members in that
>> category, some who contribute to packaging, some who lurk so they can
>> stay apprised and bridge to other communities (distributions, major
>> packages, etc.).
>
>
> I have contributed a fair degree in the past; I'm largely if not entirely 
> emeritus at this point - I get to code only from time to time in my day job, 
> and then it is rarely Python. I like to stay in touch, both because I can 
> provide some institutional continuity, but also I do enjoy helping from time 
> to time, when I can.
>
> I hope these

[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-07-30 Thread Paul Moore 
On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 at 03:53, Sumana Harihareswara  wrote:
> On Discourse I've seen
> https://discuss.python.org/t/disappointed-and-overwhelmed-by-discourse/982
> , https://discuss.python.org/t/if-mailing-list-mode-were-better/3951 ,
> and https://discuss.python.org/t/e-mail-settings-are-not-respected/396
> talking about problems people have had keeping up with/watching and
> participating in conversations on Discourse -- including Paul Moore and
> Paul Ganssle, whose opinions I really want to hear from here. I believe
> I've heard Dan Ryan say that he finds Discourse practically unusable,
> and I'd like to hear from him as well.

My view on Discourse is not entirely relevant here, as I will (of
necessity) use the forum where the discussions are happening. So as
long as Discourse is where the majority of discussion occurs, I'll
follow it (regardless of my personal views of the platform). I don't
think anyone is suggesting shutting down Discourse and forcing traffic
back to distutils-sig, so my only real view here is "one less place to
monitor". But distutils-sig is quiet enough these days that this isn't
a huge benefit.

The real questions for me are:

1. Will dropping distutils-sig mean that people who prefer interacting
here lose their voice in packaging discussions?
2. Will having one fewer "recommended place" to start discussions make
it easier for new participants to get involved?

I don't have any insights into either of these questions, though.

Paul
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[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-07-30 Thread Robert Collins 
On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 at 14:52, Sumana Harihareswara  wrote:

> On 7/29/20 10:14 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:
> > On 2020-07-30 07:17:03 +0530 (+0530), Pradyun Gedam wrote:
> >> TL;DR: OK to archive this mailing list? Reply by Aug 30th.
> > [...]
> >
> > I find it disappointing that there will no longer be a mailing list
> > for discussions of Python packaging. Web forums with some E-mail
> > integration are hardly the same. But those of us who still use
> > E-mail (and worse, Usenet) eventually need to get out of the way of
> > the wheels of progress lest they run us over.
> >
> > Many thanks to those who have maintained, moderated, and
> > collaborated through this list over the years. It has been much
> > appreciated.
>
> Jeremy, I'm not sure whether you were serious? If your disappointment is
> only out of nostalgia, then yeah, accepting change makes sense. But if
> your disappointment is because the Discourse experience is/will be worse
> for your participation, then it's totally fine to speak up and tell us how.
>

Discourse requires about 10x the effort to participate in the community.
It's "mailing list mode" sends garbled fragments of interwoved WYSIWYG
documents that are unintelligible - I tried it for some months when the
Pyython Discourse started up but had to turn it off after a while as I
really couldn't effectively tell what was being said in a conversation that
comes in via it.

And its so siloed, I may as well not be in the conversation at all: I have
to actively go and log into the website to look and see what new
conversations are happening, which in my time poor situation just doesn't
happen. So, for all intents and purposes, I'm not participating in any
conversation in Discourse at all, except for a rare helicopter drop-in when
someone pings me on email or Twitter or Slack or Discord to say 'hey, you
should comment on '.

I full well recognise the advantage that these properties have when dealing
with a bulk of (largely) newcomers whose community use case is to sample
discussion: to find one or two things that have been said previously via
search, ask some questions to get a problem solved, and then move on.

Relatively few of those users will be publishing packages though; even with
the rise of docker : consuming Python in a local script or workbook is
still the majority use case I think, so the bulk of the work we do affects
a (large) fraction of users, and most of those users are experienced by the
time they need our assistance.

Pradyun, thanks for starting this conversation.
>
> I am definitely interested in consolidating our conversational channels
> and reducing fragmentation, but I have substantial reservations about
> taking this particular step:
>
> * The majority of information overwhelm in my PyPA-related life is
> because of GitHub repo and issue sprawl -- if we're going to put energy
> into pruning sprawling communications venues, I would prefer that we
> spend some time inventorying all the teams, shutting some down, and
> locking noisy issues/repositories.
>

Agreed with the above.


> * I would like to know, of our ~700 list members, how many of them have
> serious problems using Discourse -- accessibility, user experience,
> sheer tech problems, etc. I suspect that we have several members in that
> category, some who contribute to packaging, some who lurk so they can
> stay apprised and bridge to other communities (distributions, major
> packages, etc.).
>

I have contributed a fair degree in the past; I'm largely if not entirely
emeritus at this point - I get to code only from time to time in my day
job, and then it is rarely Python. I like to stay in touch, both because I
can provide some institutional continuity, but also I do enjoy helping from
time to time, when I can.

I hope these thoughts are useful.

-Rob

On Discourse I've seen
> https://discuss.python.org/t/disappointed-and-overwhelmed-by-discourse/982
> , https://discuss.python.org/t/if-mailing-list-mode-were-better/3951 ,
> and https://discuss.python.org/t/e-mail-settings-are-not-respected/396
> talking about problems people have had keeping up with/watching and
> participating in conversations on Discourse -- including Paul Moore and
> Paul Ganssle, whose opinions I really want to hear from here. I believe
> I've heard Dan Ryan say that he finds Discourse practically unusable,
> and I'd like to hear from him as well.
>
> * There are some things I don't like about how Discourse shapes our
> conversations. Some examples: I think people are chattier on Discourse,
> posting shorter replies more frequently, and that's not always good. In
> the email notifications, Discourse preserves threading so I can see
> better who's replying to whom, but the web view is flat which makes that
> harder to see. And -- as came up in
>
> https://discuss.python.org/t/pep-458-secure-pypi-downloads-with-package-signing/2648/30
> -- people use the heart/"like" button in different ways that have led to
> confusion. “Liking” a post on

[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-07-29 Thread Sumana Harihareswara 

On 7/29/20 10:14 PM, Jeremy Stanley wrote:

On 2020-07-30 07:17:03 +0530 (+0530), Pradyun Gedam wrote:

TL;DR: OK to archive this mailing list? Reply by Aug 30th.

[...]

I find it disappointing that there will no longer be a mailing list
for discussions of Python packaging. Web forums with some E-mail
integration are hardly the same. But those of us who still use
E-mail (and worse, Usenet) eventually need to get out of the way of
the wheels of progress lest they run us over.

Many thanks to those who have maintained, moderated, and
collaborated through this list over the years. It has been much
appreciated.


Jeremy, I'm not sure whether you were serious? If your disappointment is 
only out of nostalgia, then yeah, accepting change makes sense. But if 
your disappointment is because the Discourse experience is/will be worse 
for your participation, then it's totally fine to speak up and tell us how.


Pradyun, thanks for starting this conversation.

I am definitely interested in consolidating our conversational channels 
and reducing fragmentation, but I have substantial reservations about 
taking this particular step:


* The majority of information overwhelm in my PyPA-related life is 
because of GitHub repo and issue sprawl -- if we're going to put energy 
into pruning sprawling communications venues, I would prefer that we 
spend some time inventorying all the teams, shutting some down, and 
locking noisy issues/repositories.


* I would like to know, of our ~700 list members, how many of them have 
serious problems using Discourse -- accessibility, user experience, 
sheer tech problems, etc. I suspect that we have several members in that 
category, some who contribute to packaging, some who lurk so they can 
stay apprised and bridge to other communities (distributions, major 
packages, etc.).


On Discourse I've seen 
https://discuss.python.org/t/disappointed-and-overwhelmed-by-discourse/982 
, https://discuss.python.org/t/if-mailing-list-mode-were-better/3951 , 
and https://discuss.python.org/t/e-mail-settings-are-not-respected/396 
talking about problems people have had keeping up with/watching and 
participating in conversations on Discourse -- including Paul Moore and 
Paul Ganssle, whose opinions I really want to hear from here. I believe 
I've heard Dan Ryan say that he finds Discourse practically unusable, 
and I'd like to hear from him as well.


* There are some things I don't like about how Discourse shapes our 
conversations. Some examples: I think people are chattier on Discourse, 
posting shorter replies more frequently, and that's not always good. In 
the email notifications, Discourse preserves threading so I can see 
better who's replying to whom, but the web view is flat which makes that 
harder to see. And -- as came up in 
https://discuss.python.org/t/pep-458-secure-pypi-downloads-with-package-signing/2648/30 
-- people use the heart/"like" button in different ways that have led to 
confusion. “Liking” a post on Discourse does not have clear semantics. 
It could mean “I like how you expressed this” or “I’m glad you spoke” or 
“welcome” or “yes, please do the things you have proposed, I approve" 
and there's no way of telling without explicit explanation.


* Discourse is written in Ruby and I have rarely seen Discourse 
developers interact with us, and I don't believe I've ever seen (in the 
"Discourse feedback" threads above) any Python community member saying 
that they could try to fix a problem we were seeing with Discourse. The 
more we lock in to using Discourse and moving away from Mailman -- 
written in Python 3 and now with a web frontend that includes search, 
posting, and threaded archive views -- the more we give up control of 
our tools.


What if we bridged them, instead? Barry Warsaw in 
https://discuss.python.org/t/disappointed-and-overwhelmed-by-discourse/982/15 
suggested:



My ultimate dream would be to add an IMAP and/or NNTP interface directly to 
[Mailman 3/HyperKitty]. Then I could use my normal mail application to catch up 
and interact with Mailman lists in a very lightweight way, driven entirely by 
my own workflow. That plus a Discourse bridge would be a pretty powerful and 
flexible combination.


Is that something that other folks here who have trouble with Discourse 
would find fruitful? If so, we can start pushing to make it happen.


--
Sumana Harihareswara
Changeset Consulting
https://changeset.nyc
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[Distutils] Re: Archive this list & redirect conversation elsewhere?

2020-07-29 Thread Jeremy Stanley 
On 2020-07-30 07:17:03 +0530 (+0530), Pradyun Gedam wrote:
> TL;DR: OK to archive this mailing list? Reply by Aug 30th.
[...]

I find it disappointing that there will no longer be a mailing list
for discussions of Python packaging. Web forums with some E-mail
integration are hardly the same. But those of us who still use
E-mail (and worse, Usenet) eventually need to get out of the way of
the wheels of progress lest they run us over.

Many thanks to those who have maintained, moderated, and
collaborated through this list over the years. It has been much
appreciated.
-- 
Jeremy Stanley


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