subject:"Re\: \[Flightgear\-devel\] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook"

?Hi Chris

I have reservations about this. It could easily backfire on you personally 
or turn out to be a traumatic event, particularly if it turns out to be more 
of a confrontation than a reasonable discussion. What are the odds of the 
latter do you think?

I think the same could be achieved (at least partially) by sending the guy 
individual messages or an agreed collective letter on behalf of all of  the 
FG community, but having said that, I do actually agree that face-to-face 
can ultimately be the most effective option - but at the same time, with 
somone who is completely unknown, it is a risk.

It's possible of course that the gentleman in question is reading the forum, 
in which case I would just ask that he take some time to reflect seriously 
about the ethics of what he is doing, and attempt to find within his better 
nature the capacity to change the way he is going about this.

From my viewpoint, it is not about giving a bit back. The main issues for 
me are that potential purchasers should be able to make a fully informed 
choice, that they should know completely what they are buying, and that he 
should comply fully with the GPL, i.e. by charging a fee ONLY for the 
physical act of transferring a copy of FG and optionally for a warranty if 
he wants to provide the same. If he did this and made it clear that this was 
what he was doing in his main web page/advertising, i.e. clearly informing 
potential purchasers that they were paying for these services rather than 
buying a product, then I would be very happy to see him succeed in his 
venture, and I'm sure he would be providing a valuable service.

Mally


- Original Message - 
From: Chris Wilkinson blobster...@yahoo.com.au
To: FlightGear developers discussions 
flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 5:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook


This looks to be more of a moral issue than a legal one.

I'll tell you what I'll do about this. I was born and raised in 
Christchurch,
where this guy operates from, and I will be visiting the city in a months 
time.
Perhaps I should pay the guy a visit?

I wanna know where this guy gets off taking all YOUR hard work, and 
PROFITING
from it, with NOTHING returned to the flightgear community. The legality of 
his
actions could be debated in a court of law forever, but perhaps a bit of 
face
time to directly express the sentiments of the flightgear community with the
dude might convince him that there are REAL people who consider his actions
immoral - you guys are more than just names attached to code commits on the
internet, and I think this guy needs to be reminded that without your
efforts his little endeavour would amount to NOTHING.

I'm sure with some 'friendly persuasion' I can convince the guy to give a 
bit
back. After all if he can help the efforts to improve flightgear, that will 
have
a flow-on effect for him. He scratch our back, we scratch his...

Regards,

Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE.




-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3251 - Release Date: 11/11/10


--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-12 Thread Chris Wilkinson

Confrontation? Don't be silly! This guy is a businessman, a shrewd capitalist 
at 
worst - these kind of guys don't make their money being brutal in peoples 
faces, 
they sneak around quietly like mice, (almost) unknowingly profiting off the 
hard 
work of others. Risk in meeting an unknown person? So what am I to this fellow? 
It goes both ways...

My goal will be open dialog as to why this guy seems unwilling to honor the 
exacting word of the GPL, and why he isn't giving back to the community. 
Probably done over coffee. I'll probably smile. And my solemn promise is that I 
wont hurt him (much)... :-)

Frankly this guy is a big part of the reason I have yet to commit my scenery 
and 
aircraft to the community. I do NOT want someone making money from my efforts 
without either my consent or without some form of input to the community as a 
condition of being allowed to profit from all your work.

Failing a positive outcome there I support a re-licensing of the software, to 
prevent this kind of thing. Simple as that.

Regards,

Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE.





From: Mally ma...@tklm.freeserve.co.uk
To: FlightGear developers discussions flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 8:38:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

?Hi Chris

I have reservations about this. It could easily backfire on you personally 
or turn out to be a traumatic event, particularly if it turns out to be more 
of a confrontation than a reasonable discussion. What are the odds of the 
latter do you think?

I think the same could be achieved (at least partially) by sending the guy 
individual messages or an agreed collective letter on behalf of all of  the 
FG community, but having said that, I do actually agree that face-to-face 
can ultimately be the most effective option - but at the same time, with 
somone who is completely unknown, it is a risk.

It's possible of course that the gentleman in question is reading the forum, 
in which case I would just ask that he take some time to reflect seriously 
about the ethics of what he is doing, and attempt to find within his better 
nature the capacity to change the way he is going about this.

From my viewpoint, it is not about giving a bit back. The main issues for 
me are that potential purchasers should be able to make a fully informed 
choice, that they should know completely what they are buying, and that he 
should comply fully with the GPL, i.e. by charging a fee ONLY for the 
physical act of transferring a copy of FG and optionally for a warranty if 
he wants to provide the same. If he did this and made it clear that this was 
what he was doing in his main web page/advertising, i.e. clearly informing 
potential purchasers that they were paying for these services rather than 
buying a product, then I would be very happy to see him succeed in his 
venture, and I'm sure he would be providing a valuable service.

Mally


- Original Message - 
From: Chris Wilkinson blobster...@yahoo.com.au
To: FlightGear developers discussions 
flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 5:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook


This looks to be more of a moral issue than a legal one.

I'll tell you what I'll do about this. I was born and raised in 
Christchurch,
where this guy operates from, and I will be visiting the city in a months 
time.
Perhaps I should pay the guy a visit?

I wanna know where this guy gets off taking all YOUR hard work, and 
PROFITING
from it, with NOTHING returned to the flightgear community. The legality of 
his
actions could be debated in a court of law forever, but perhaps a bit of 
face
time to directly express the sentiments of the flightgear community with the
dude might convince him that there are REAL people who consider his actions
immoral - you guys are more than just names attached to code commits on the
internet, and I think this guy needs to be reminded that without your
efforts his little endeavour would amount to NOTHING.

I'm sure with some 'friendly persuasion' I can convince the guy to give a 
bit
back. After all if he can help the efforts to improve flightgear, that will 
have
a flow-on effect for him. He scratch our back, we scratch his...

Regards,

Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE.




-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3251 - Release Date: 11/11/10


--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-12 Thread Chris Wilkinson

BTW, it might interest you to know that Charlie Taylor, the name of the guy 
behind Flight Sim Pro, is an alias. For those who know their aviation history 
Charles E Taylor was the 3rd Wright Brother. He was the mechanic who kept the 
Wright Flyer in sound condition, Without him the flyer may not have ever left 
terra firma...

Regards,

Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE.





From: Chris Wilkinson blobster...@yahoo.com.au
To: Mally ma...@tklm.freeserve.co.uk; FlightGear developers discussions 
flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 9:45:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook


Confrontation? Don't be silly! This guy is a businessman, a shrewd capitalist 
at 
worst - these kind of guys don't make their money being brutal in peoples 
faces, 
they sneak around quietly like mice, (almost) unknowingly profiting off the 
hard 
work of others. Risk in meeting an unknown person? So what am I to this fellow? 
It goes both ways...

My goal will be open dialog as to why this guy seems unwilling to honor the 
exacting word of the GPL, and why he isn't giving back to the community. 
Probably done over coffee. I'll probably smile. And my solemn promise is that I 
wont hurt him (much)... :-)

Frankly this guy is a big part of the reason I have yet to commit my scenery 
and 
aircraft to the community. I do NOT want someone making money from my efforts 
without either my consent or without  some form of input to the community as a 
condition of being allowed to profit from all your work.

Failing a positive outcome there I support a re-licensing of the software, to 
prevent this kind of thing. Simple as that.

Regards,

Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE.





From: Mally ma...@tklm.freeserve.co.uk
To: FlightGear developers discussions flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 8:38:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

?Hi Chris

I have reservations about  this. It could easily backfire on you personally 
or turn out to be a traumatic event, particularly if it turns out to be more 
of a confrontation than a reasonable discussion. What are the odds of the 
latter do you think?

I think the same could be achieved (at least partially) by sending the guy 
individual messages or an agreed collective letter on behalf of all of  the 
FG community, but having said that, I do actually agree that face-to-face 
can ultimately be the most effective option - but at the same time, with 
somone who is completely unknown, it is a risk.

It's possible of course that the gentleman in question is reading the forum, 
in which case I would just ask that he take some time to reflect seriously 
about the ethics of what he is doing, and attempt to find within his better 
nature the capacity to change the way he is going about this.

From my viewpoint, it is not about  giving a bit back. The main issues for 
me are that potential purchasers should be able to make a fully informed 
choice, that they should know completely what they are buying, and that he 
should comply fully with the GPL, i.e. by charging a fee ONLY for the 
physical act of transferring a copy of FG and optionally for a warranty if 
he wants to provide the same. If he did this and made it clear that this was 
what he was doing in his main web page/advertising, i.e. clearly informing 
potential purchasers that they were paying for these services rather than 
buying a product, then I would be very happy to see him succeed in his 
venture, and I'm sure he would be providing a valuable service.

Mally


- Original Message - 
From: Chris Wilkinson blobster...@yahoo.com.au
To: FlightGear developers  discussions 
flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 5:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook


This looks to be more of a moral issue than a legal one.

I'll tell you what I'll do about this. I was born and raised in 
Christchurch,
where this guy operates from, and I will be visiting the city in a months 
time.
Perhaps I should pay the guy a visit?

I wanna know where this guy gets off taking all YOUR hard work, and 
PROFITING
from it, with NOTHING returned to the flightgear community. The legality of 
his
actions could be debated in a court of law forever, but perhaps a bit of 
face
time to directly express the sentiments of the flightgear community with the
dude might convince him that there are REAL  people who consider his actions
immoral - you guys are more than just names attached to code commits on the
internet, and I think this guy needs to be reminded that without your
efforts his little endeavour would amount to NOTHING.

I'm sure with some 'friendly persuasion' I can convince the guy to give a 
bit
back. After all if he can help the efforts to improve flightgear, that will 
have
a flow-on effect for him. He scratch our back, we scratch his

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-12 Thread Tim Moore

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Mally ma...@tklm.freeserve.co.uk wrote:

 ?Hi Chris

 I have reservations about this. It could easily backfire on you personally
 or turn out to be a traumatic event, particularly if it turns out to be
 more
 of a confrontation than a reasonable discussion. What are the odds of the
 latter do you think?

 I wouldn't want anyone to go to jail over enforcing the GPL :)

 I think the same could be achieved (at least partially) by sending the guy
 individual messages or an agreed collective letter on behalf of all of  the
 FG community, but having said that, I do actually agree that face-to-face
 can ultimately be the most effective option - but at the same time, with
 somone who is completely unknown, it is a risk.

 It's possible of course that the gentleman in question is reading the
 forum,
 in which case I would just ask that he take some time to reflect seriously
 about the ethics of what he is doing, and attempt to find within his better
 nature the capacity to change the way he is going about this.

There's little chance of that. FlightProSim seems to be a scam, though it's
not clear who is being scammed. It's not us; after all, we're giving it
away, though you might argue that he is besmirching the good name of
FlightGear. It's possible some users are getting scammed, but I think the
ultimate victims will be the affiliates in the multi-level marketing
scheme. This guy has hit on free software as the vehicle for the scam; if
not it would be cleaning products, cell phone plans, water filters, matches,
whatever.


 From my viewpoint, it is not about giving a bit back. The main issues
 for
 me are that potential purchasers should be able to make a fully informed
 choice, that they should know completely what they are buying, and that he
 should comply fully with the GPL, i.e. by charging a fee ONLY for the
 physical act of transferring a copy of FG and optionally for a warranty if
 he wants to provide the same. If he did this and made it clear that this
 was

That language from the GPL refers only to the act of supplying the source
code. There used to be a time when the only practical way to get a copy of
the emacs source was on 9 track tape, so the costs could be considerable.
The GPL says nothing at all about the permitted price of the object code or
any derived product.

There is an idea that, because the cost of the source code is free (or
nearly so), the value of a complete product or distribution is close to
zero. This is patently false; you just have to look at all the questions
that people ask about building fgfs from scratch, and all the effort that
has gone into making this process automatic, to see that a pre-built package
has a lot of value. Not to mention the value of a real professional
version of fgfs...

what he was doing in his main web page/advertising, i.e. clearly informing
 potential purchasers that they were paying for these services rather than
 buying a product, then I would be very happy to see him succeed in his
 venture, and I'm sure he would be providing a valuable service.

 In the case of FlightProSim, there is probably very little there that
cannot be obtained for free. But that's not a GPL violation, nor is it
illegal; it's the very essence of capitalism :)

Tim

 Mally


 - Original Message -
 From: Chris Wilkinson blobster...@yahoo.com.au
 To: FlightGear developers discussions
 flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
 Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 5:59 AM
 Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook


 This looks to be more of a moral issue than a legal one.

 I'll tell you what I'll do about this. I was born and raised in
 Christchurch,
 where this guy operates from, and I will be visiting the city in a months
 time.
 Perhaps I should pay the guy a visit?

 I wanna know where this guy gets off taking all YOUR hard work, and
 PROFITING
 from it, with NOTHING returned to the flightgear community. The legality of
 his
 actions could be debated in a court of law forever, but perhaps a bit of
 face
 time to directly express the sentiments of the flightgear community with
 the
 dude might convince him that there are REAL people who consider his actions
 immoral - you guys are more than just names attached to code commits on the
 internet, and I think this guy needs to be reminded that without your
 efforts his little endeavour would amount to NOTHING.

 I'm sure with some 'friendly persuasion' I can convince the guy to give a
 bit
 back. After all if he can help the efforts to improve flightgear, that will
 have
 a flow-on effect for him. He scratch our back, we scratch his...

 Regards,

 Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE.




 -
 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3251 - Release Date: 11/11/10



 --
 Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-12 Thread Tim Moore

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Chris Wilkinson
blobster...@yahoo.com.auwrote:

 My goal will be open dialog as to why this guy seems unwilling to honor the
 exacting word of the GPL, and why he isn't giving back to the community.
 Probably done over coffee. I'll probably smile. And my solemn promise is
 that I wont hurt him (much)... :-)

I thought someone had paid the money and determined that they did follow the
letter of the GPL: you could download it and build it with a great deal of
effort.


 Frankly this guy is a big part of the reason I have yet to commit my
 scenery and aircraft to the community. I do NOT want someone making money
 from my efforts without either my consent or without some form of input to
 the community as a condition of being allowed to profit from all your work.

 Failing a positive outcome there I support a re-licensing of the software,
 to prevent this kind of thing. Simple as that.

 That would be difficult for the code. I wouldn't agree to relicense my
contributions made under the LGPL. That might not be a show-stopper, but I
don't think I'm the only one who feels that way.

I'm not sure what I'd do if the modelers and scenery guys managed to put
everything under a different license. On the one hand, I suspect that a lot
of models are not really GPL compliant now, as we don't store .blend files,
.tiff files, etc. in the data repository. On the other hand, if all the
content switched to a non-commercial license I would quickly lose interest.

Tim


 Regards,

 Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE.

 --
 *From:* Mally ma...@tklm.freeserve.co.uk

 *To:* FlightGear developers discussions 
 flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
 *Sent:* Fri, 12 November, 2010 8:38:08 PM

 *Subject:* Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

 ?Hi Chris

 I have reservations about this. It could easily backfire on you personally
 or turn out to be a traumatic event, particularly if it turns out to be
 more
 of a confrontation than a reasonable discussion. What are the odds of the
 latter do you think?

 I think the same could be achieved (at least partially) by sending the guy
 individual messages or an agreed collective letter on behalf of all of  the

 FG community, but having said that, I do actually agree that face-to-face
 can ultimately be the most effective option - but at the same time, with
 somone who is completely unknown, it is a risk.

 It's possible of course that the gentleman in question is reading the
 forum,
 in which case I would just ask that he take some time to reflect seriously
 about the ethics of what he is doing, and attempt to find within his better

 nature the capacity to change the way he is going about this.

 From my viewpoint, it is not about giving a bit back. The main issues
 for
 me are that potential purchasers should be able to make a fully informed
 choice, that they should know completely what they are buying, and that he
 should comply fully with the GPL, i.e. by charging a fee ONLY for the
 physical act of transferring a copy of FG and optionally for a warranty if
 he wants to provide the same. If he did this and made it clear that this
 was
 what he was doing in his main web page/advertising, i.e. clearly informing
 potential purchasers that they were paying for these services rather than
 buying a product, then I would be very happy to see him succeed in his
 venture, and I'm sure he would be providing a valuable service.

 Mally


 - Original Message -
 From: Chris Wilkinson blobster...@yahoo.com.au
 To: FlightGear developers discussions
 flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
 Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 5:59 AM
 Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook


 This looks to be more of a moral issue than a legal one.

 I'll tell you what I'll do about this. I was born and raised in
 Christchurch,
 where this guy operates from, and I will be visiting the city in a months
 time.
 Perhaps I should pay the guy a visit?

 I wanna know where this guy gets off taking all YOUR hard work, and
 PROFITING
 from it, with NOTHING returned to the flightgear community. The legality of

 his
 actions could be debated in a court of law forever, but perhaps a bit of
 face
 time to directly express the sentiments of the flightgear community with
 the
 dude might convince him that there are REAL people who consider his actions
 immoral - you guys are more than just names attached to code commits on the
 internet, and I think this guy needs to be reminded that without your
 efforts his little endeavour would amount to NOTHING.

 I'm sure with some 'friendly persuasion' I can convince the guy to give a
 bit
 back. After all if he can help the efforts to improve flightgear, that will

 have
 a flow-on effect for him. He scratch our back, we scratch his...

 Regards,

 Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE.




 -
 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

Chris Wilkinson wrote:

 Frankly this guy is a big part of the reason I have yet to commit my scenery 
 and 
 aircraft to the community. I do NOT want someone making money from my efforts 
 without either my consent or without some form of input to the community as a 
 condition of being allowed to profit from all your work.

I do understand your sentiments very well, but I don't agree with your
conclusion. If everyone would keep his work private, just to prevent
artifacts like FPS from building a 'distribution' of it, how far do you
think would FlightGear have developed over the past 10 years ?

FPS is a nuisance, indeed, but boycotting The FlightGear Project just
as a means to hurt FPS doesn't buy us anything, I'd say. If we really
aim at doing anything wrt. FPS, then we'd probably better care about
getting our desolate PR department into better shape 

 Failing a positive outcome there I support a re-licensing of the software, to 
 prevent this kind of thing. Simple as that.

The GPL hasn't been _that_ unsuccessful, overall  ;-)

Cheers,
Martin.
-- 
 Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
--

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

Mally wrote:

 Relicensing seems to be a good idea if the present license (or it's 
 potential to be misinterpreted) is resulting in unhappiness for the 
 contributors, or worse still, affecting the growth and development of FG, as 
 seems to be the case currently.

I think the latter statement is worth being questioned.

Let's be honest: No matter which license you're going to attach to
FlightGear, there will always be some unhappy fellow, finding a reason
for not contributing to the project. But do you really think this is
going to change if we're choosing a more restrictive license ? No, in
the end we're going to shoot our own feet because it'll be the
restrictive licensing which is going to hinder the spreading and, in
consequence, the growth of the project.

Until now well over 100 people have been contributing to the project in
some form, all of them agreeing to the current license.

Have fun,
Martin.
-- 
 Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
--

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-12 Thread Gene Buckle


 FPS is a nuisance, indeed, but boycotting The FlightGear Project just
 as a means to hurt FPS doesn't buy us anything, I'd say. If we really
 aim at doing anything wrt. FPS, then we'd probably better care about
 getting our desolate PR department into better shape 


This is the key right here - we should not worry about what that sorry 
jackass is doing with his little flightprosim scam.  We should be far 
more concerned with promoting FlightGear - that's what we're all about 
anyway, right?  I can understand some folks getting all bent sideways 
about this jerk, but while he's doing something we all find reprehensible, 
he's pretty much following the letter of the law.

We would be far better served as a community if we focused on promoting 
FlightGear as best we can instead of spinning our wheels over the antics 
of an insignificant little prat that's bent on parting the unwary from 
their money.

Frankly the only thing FPS does well is distract people from their work on 
FlightGear and that's a damn shame.

Why not just ignore the little f*cker and focus on providing the best 
flight simulator on the planet instead?

g.



-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-12 Thread J. Holden

For the love of...

Whatever your opinion on the legality of what they are doing, this is indeed a 
problem and reflects negatively on the community.

Ignoring it will not make it go away. We need to know what we can do.

Please, please, someone with a copyright interest in the software please 
contact the lawyers at http://www.softwarefreedom.org/

I am not saying this for fun.

Cheers
John

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-12 Thread Curtis Olson

Hi John,

We have been down this road before. Here is a reply from the FSF:

*From: Donald R Robertson III via RT [mailto:licens...@fsf.org]*
*Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 5:47 PM*
*
*
*Hello,*
*
*
*Thank you for your interest. This link:*
*http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-violation.html provides a*
*walk-through on what to do if you suspect that the GPL has been*
*violated. In short, you should double check to make sure that a*
*violation has occurred, and then notify the copyright holder on the*
*work. If you have a specific question about whether something is a*
*violation or not, please let us know. We here at licens...@fsf.org deal*
*with these sorts of issues frequently, and can often provide useful*
*information in determining whether a violation has occurred. Thanks so*
*much for your time, and I hope this helps.*

It boils down to a requirement that we first find a specific license
violation. The FSF can then take a look at that specific situation and
weigh in with their expertise to tell us if we do indeed have a legitimate
violation or not. The FSF has plenty to do without jumping into every
little squabble or helping us fish around and try to do research and dig up
a new violation that hasn't been spotted already.

We have had these threads of conversation before, and it all seems to end
when no one can pin point an actual provable license violation. It's not
good enough if the behavior stinks, it's not good enough if we don't like
it, it's not good enough if we are sure there must be a violation somewhere.

Seriously, I don't think any lawyer would be excited about jumping into the
middle of our squabbles to try to dig up some hidden technicality that only
a lawyer could spot so that we could push forward with legal action. That
is the realm of political campaigns or people with way too much free time
(or free money) on their hands. Certainly we can't afford to pay a lawyer
to research the GPL license and become an expert in that, then research the
FlightGear project and become an expert in that, and then research FPS and
become an expert in that ... and then expect that they will be able to find
some actual violation once they have become a thorough expert on the entire
landscape. Do we expect there is some magic lawyer dust that can be
sprinkled on the situation and that will produce some obscure technical
violation that no one else has been able to spot before?

In order to proceed with legal action, we need to identify a clear and
obvious violation of our license terms. So far we have not been able to
clear this first hurdle.

I don't disagree that FPS is a frustrating problem, but to proceed with a
legal remedy we need to identify a clear violation. In the mean time, I
agree with and support those that suggest that our best course of action is
to shine brighter than the lowlife scum. We could certainly do more to
promote FlightGear ourselves ... on web sites, on facebook, magazine
reviews, blogs, forums, youtube, etc. It would be nice to have a person (or
team) who focuses their full time effort on FlightGear marketing. It would
be nice if that person (or team) was really savvy and smart with marketing,
not just a warm body.

Please just keep this all in perspective. We've looked at this situation
several times already. We've contacted the FSF in the past. The ball is in
our court to identify a clear violation of our license. If we can't do
that, then let's just suck it up and decide to be positive about what we are
doing and not worry too much about a few bad apples floating around out
there that we can't control anyway.

Best regards,

Curt.

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 10:28 AM, J. Holden stattosoftw...@yahoo.comwrote:

For the love of...

Whatever your opinion on the legality of what they are doing, this is
indeed a problem and reflects negatively on the community.

Ignoring it will not make it go away. We need to know what we can do.

Please, please, someone with a copyright interest in the software please
contact the lawyers at http://www.softwarefreedom.org/

I am not saying this for fun.

Cheers
John

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

--
Curtis Olson:
http://www.atiak.com - http://aem.umn.edu/~uav/
http://www.flightgear.org -
http://www.flightgear.org/blogs/category/curt/http://www.flightgear.org/blogs/category/personal/curt/
--
Centralized Desktop Delivery:

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

Hi John,

J. Holden wrote:

 Whatever your opinion on the legality of what they are doing, this is
 indeed a problem and reflects negatively on the community.
 
 Ignoring it will not make it go away. We need to know what we can do.

I don't think we're ignoring the 'issue'. But we probably should
consider what legal action actually cost us, if legal action really
serves as a reasonable vehicle to deal with FPS - and if there are
probably 'cheaper' and more sustainable means of dealing with this
flavour of free riders.

If we really manage to shape our own public exposure into a formidable,
informative experience, then we're sooner or later see FPS and similar
spin off's diminish into irrelevance - without any further
interaction.

Personally I don't think that legal action gets us anywhere. If we
really decide to take this route, the people behind FPS are easily
escaping the trouble by just wrapping another brand around their
product. The net result ? Significant waste of ressources at our end.
Instead, by increasing the exposure of the FlightGear-'brand' in the
public, we easily knock out FPS as well as all the others who are
probably considering to build a similar 'business'.

Coordinated effort on subjects like corporate identity (plus dealing
with not-invented-here tendencies) is, to my understanding, the key
to getting the FPS issue ironed out.

Cheers,
Martin.
-- 
 Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
--

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

?John, I fully agree.

I despair that everyone seems to be saying this guy's operation is fully 
legal, almost like it's more convenient to assume that than to fight it. I'm 
no lawyer, but it seems to me that the GPL wording on the allowable scope of 
commercial activity is very clear, and this guy appears to be going well 
beyond it, or at least, there seems to be a very good case for questioning 
it.

So now you have identified a body of lawyers who can help at no cost. (This 
is fantastic btw). The question is whether anyone here really wants to test 
the issue are whether they are happy to carry on being pissed off about it 
and not even take the opportunity to get an expert opinion.

Frankly, I don't think we're fulfilling our responsibility to potential 
users of FlightGear if we don't do everything in OUR power to protect them 
from whatever FlightSimPro represents, and yes, it does reflect badly on the 
community, particularly if our collective response is to bury our heads in 
the sand and allow it to carry on unchallenged

These adverts on Facebook are becoming more and more prolific, so this is an 
issue that is not really just a sideline. This is a advertising campaign 
with potentially a massive reach.

Mally

PS. It's just struck me that even his advert headline is misleading NEW 
Flight Simulator (my emphasis).

PPS. I will check (if I can) if any code attributable to me is in the 
source. I think not, I was just debugging for someone else who had the code 
checked out iirc.


- Original Message - 
From: J. Holden stattosoftw...@yahoo.com
To: flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook



 For the love of...

 Whatever your opinion on the legality of what they are doing, this is 
 indeed a problem and reflects negatively on the community.

 Ignoring it will not make it go away. We need to know what we can do.

 Please, please, someone with a copyright interest in the software please 
 contact the lawyers at http://www.softwarefreedom.org/

 I am not saying this for fun.

 Cheers
 John

 --
 Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
 Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
 Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
 client virtualization framework. Read more!
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
 ___
 Flightgear-devel mailing list
 Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel



 -
 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3251 - Release Date: 11/11/10
 



-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3251 - Release Date: 11/11/10


--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-12 Thread Vivian Meazza

John wrote

 
 For the love of...
 
 Whatever your opinion on the legality of what they are doing, this is
 indeed a problem and reflects negatively on the community.
 
 Ignoring it will not make it go away. We need to know what we can do.
 
 Please, please, someone with a copyright interest in the software please
 contact the lawyers at http://www.softwarefreedom.org/
 
 I am not saying this for fun.
 
 Cheers
 John

I have looked at his code - it's ours, complete and unchanged, with all
copyright and licence declarations intact. He's not trying to pass it off as
his work, or copying it. INAL, but I can't see that this is a route worth
pursuing. 

We go round this buoy every month or so, generating more heat than light.
I'm with Gene on this: let's just out-compete him by making sure that our
free product is more available than his.  

Vivian




--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

Mally wrote:

 I despair that everyone seems to be saying this guy's operation is fully 
 legal, [...]

This might be your feeling, but does not properly reflect what's been
written on this very list. If you're approaching legal affairs with
assumptions _that_ vague and imprecise as the above 'summary', then
you'll fail way before things have started.

 Frankly, I don't think we're fulfilling our responsibility to potential 
 users of FlightGear if we don't do everything in OUR power to protect them 
 from whatever FlightSimPro represents, and yes, it does reflect badly on the 
 community, particularly if our collective response is to bury our heads in 
 the sand and allow it to carry on unchallenged

Again, incorrect allegation.

BTW, I for example have a well limited 'budget' of time I can spend on
FlightGear-related stuff/development/whatever. Probably every of us is
limited in her/his ressources. Now, when looking at the FPS topic, I
would have to make my very personal decision wether I'm spending the
time on the continuation of Scenery development or on jumping into
legal trouble.
Guess what I'm going to do  ;-)     _not_ !! because I think FPS is
fully legal but instead because the other option has a better return
on investment, not only but also in the light of the FPS issue.

 These adverts on Facebook are becoming more and more prolific, so this is an 
 issue that is not really just a sideline. This is a advertising campaign 
 with potentially a massive reach.

You know what Alexis did ? Don't blame other developers, take your own
share !

Martin - who's never been with Facebook 
-- 
 Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
--

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

? I despair that everyone seems to be saying this guy's operation is fully
 legal, [...]

 This might be your feeling, but does not properly reflect what's been
 written on this very list. If you're approaching legal affairs with
 assumptions _that_ vague and imprecise as the above 'summary', then
 you'll fail way before things have started.

I've been making very specific legal points in my previous posts, none of 
which have been replied to specifically.. unless I've missed the relevant 
replies. I think that's what I'm finding frustrating. Yes, if we can get 
away from vagueness and imprecision, great, that's what we need. However we 
seem to be locked into thinking the legality hinges *only* on whether or not 
the source code is supplied complete with relevant notices (it is) and 
ignoring other important terms in the GPL. (Which I won't repeat here yet 
again).

Mally



-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3251 - Release Date: 11/11/10


--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-12 Thread ThorstenB

From: James Turner zakal...@ma... - 2010-11-12 13:37
 Just to re-iterate - the best defence is a good offence. Stop worrying about 
 FPS, and make FG
 better (by contributing), or promoting it better. It's essentially a 
 marketing scam, not a competing
 product. (The current flightgear.org website doesn't do us many favours, 
 here). If people are
 determined to throw money away because 'free' stuff isn't as good, I ain't 
 gonna stop them -
 they're going to get scammed sooner or later.

Fully agreed. In RL, if you notice anyone getting away with simply
reselling your (or his own) product at an excessively higher price -
you know you have a really bad marketing problem. Since why don't
people buy from the cheaper source (in our case, even download for
free?). So, a major part of the problem is that FG isn't known enough.
The guy runs many websites, adds product reviews, creates a facebook
page, ... - and probably more. And some sites don't even look so
trashy as his main scam page, for example:
http://www.realflightsimulator.net
I guess we could seriously hit his scam sales by raising more
attention to FlightGear itself. Then again, it certainly looks as if
he's investing a major effort in creating all these scam websites.
Google shows tons of websites promoting his scam. Btw, he's actually
also running a site flightprosimscam.com...

Also, not sure if this was already mentioned. The person isn't only
selling FG. He does the same with a lot of other GPLed software.
Again, Google shows many similar sites - all with the same contact
address in NZ. And I guess we'd find even more if we looked closer.
Certainly looks like he's making his living from scams like this...

http://www.flightprosim.com/disclaimer/
http://3dastronomer.net/terms-conditions
http://www.3dboatdesign.com/disclaimer/
http://www.easybudgeter.com/disclaimer/
http://www.filesquasher.com/disclaimer/
http://singing-superstar.com/disclaimer/

cheers,
Thorsten

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

? Also, not sure if this was already mentioned. The person isn't only
 selling FG. He does the same with a lot of other GPLed software.
 Again, Google shows many similar sites - all with the same contact
 address in NZ. And I guess we'd find even more if we looked closer.
 Certainly looks like he's making his living from scams like this...

 http://www.flightprosim.com/disclaimer/
 http://3dastronomer.net/terms-conditions
 http://www.3dboatdesign.com/disclaimer/
 http://www.easybudgeter.com/disclaimer/
 http://www.filesquasher.com/disclaimer/
 http://singing-superstar.com/disclaimer/

It looks like, one way or another, the people over at Celestia have got 
whoever this person is to include a section at the bottom of the main page 
of  3dastronomer.com entitled Flexible and Open License Software which 
includes disclosure that the software is based on Celestia. If they could be 
persuaded to do the same for FPS it would go a long way to addressing my 
main concerns, namely that the public are not being fully informed before 
making a purchase.

Mally



-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3251 - Release Date: 11/11/10


--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-12 Thread Chris Wilkinson

Another avenue I have considered is a New Zealand consumer affairs program 
named 
Fair Go. This TV show has an excellent track record of exposing scammers, and 
sticking up for those who are being shafted by scammers. The format is a group 
of presenters who research claims of unfair treatment, then in many cases try 
to 
confront the scammers - thats the part where the scammers usually turn tail and 
run or get aggro towards the camera. Quite often however the scammers cave in 
to 
the unwanted media pressure and relent, paying back money they've 
misappropriated, or as the name of the program suggests, delivering a Fair 
Go. 
Those extra prickly scammers who outright refuse often find themselves in 
court, 
as the Fair Go team have a number of legal guys at their disposal, to advise on 
cases considered worthy of  elevating to the law courts.

Fair Go have taken on anyone from dodgy car dealers, to Microsoft. If the team 
at Fair Go think it is a case worthy of pursuing, they'll do it with gusto, 
harassing scammers, and making a laughing stock of them on TV. Not good PR for 
the scammers.

Check out youtube clips with a search fair go nz to see how the show operates.

Regards,

Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE.






From: J. Holden stattosoftw...@yahoo.com
To: flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Sat, 13 November, 2010 2:28:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

For the love of...

Whatever your opinion on the legality of what they are doing, this is indeed a 
problem and reflects negatively on the community.

Ignoring it will not make it go away. We need to know what we can do.

Please, please, someone with a copyright interest in the software please 
contact 
the lawyers at http://www.softwarefreedom.org/

I am not saying this for fun.

Cheers
John

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel



  --
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-12 Thread Innis Cunningham





Hi Chris

I would let it go mate.While I feel no better about people making money off my 
work I also feel that it is pretty much or own fault.
The only way you are going to stop this guy is to make it a pain in the arse 
for him.
Until we are prepared to fight fire with fire by releasing our own commercial 
copy  then he has an open field.
With the depth of talent we have here surely we could come up with a water 
making system that causes him some headaches.Even
if it only causes him to spend an hour extra each time.
While we sit and belly ache about it he will just continue so the ball is in 
our court.

Cheers
Innis



Another avenue I have considered is a New Zealand consumer affairs program 
named Fair Go. This TV show has an excellent track record of exposing 
scammers, and sticking up for those who are being shafted by scammers. The 
format is a group of presenters who research claims of unfair treatment, then 
in many cases try to confront the scammers - thats the part where the scammers 
usually turn tail and run or get aggro towards the camera. Quite often however 
the scammers cave in to the unwanted media pressure and relent, paying back 
money they've misappropriated, or as the name of the program suggests, 
delivering a Fair Go. Those extra prickly scammers who outright refuse often 
find themselves in court, as the Fair Go team have a number of
 legal guys at their disposal, to advise on cases considered worthy of
 elevating to the law courts.

Fair Go have taken on anyone from dodgy car dealers, to Microsoft. If the team 
at Fair Go think it is a case worthy of pursuing, they'll do it with gusto, 
harassing scammers, and making a laughing stock of them on TV. Not good PR for 
the scammers.

Check out youtube clips with a search fair go nz to see how the show operates.

Regards,

Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE.


From: J. Holden stattosoftw...@yahoo.com
To: flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Sat, 13 November, 2010 2:28:32 AM
Subject:
 Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

For the love of...

Whatever your opinion on the legality of what they are doing, this is indeed a 
problem and reflects negatively on the community.

Ignoring it will not make it go away. We need to know what we can do.

Please, please, someone with a copyright interest in the software please 
contact the lawyers at http://www.softwarefreedom.org/

I am not saying this for fun.

Cheers
John

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel







   
--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel   
  --
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-11 Thread Mally

?Arnt

 ..url to your facebook page?  Would be the useful
 one url I meant. ;o)

Effectively, once I'm logged in, the URL to my personal facebook page is 
still just http://www.facebook.com/ . Unless you're logged in as me, you're 
not going to see what I see on the page anyway, and there's no way that even 
I can get the page to show me the advert again. Each refresh and it's 
something different.

 ..nope, url to your screenshot?

Well I've not posted it online. I've already quoted the text in full, and 
there's a picture of a Cessna iirc. Not really a lot to be gained from 
seeing the advert itself, so I'm not sure it's worth the hassle of me 
uploading it somewhere. I can send you a copy privately by email if you 
like.

Mally



-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3249 - Release Date: 11/10/10


--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-11 Thread Ron Jensen

On Thursday 11 November 2010 03:36:02 Mally wrote:
 ?Arnt

  ..url to your facebook page?  Would be the useful
  one url I meant. ;o)

 Effectively, once I'm logged in, the URL to my personal facebook page is
 still just http://www.facebook.com/ . Unless you're logged in as me, you're
 not going to see what I see on the page anyway, and there's no way that
 even I can get the page to show me the advert again. Each refresh and it's
 something different.


http://www.facebook.com/pages/FlightProSim-The-Real-Life-Flying-Simulator/172036536145550?v=wall


--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-11 Thread Arnt Karlsen

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 16:25:14 +0100, Citronnier wrote in message 
4cdc0ada.6020...@gmail.com:

 Ron Jensen a écrit :
   On Thursday 11 November 2010 03:36:02 Mally wrote:
   ?Arnt
  
   ..url to your facebook page?  Would be the useful one url I
   meant. ;o)
   Effectively, once I'm logged in, the URL to my personal facebook
   page is still just http://www.facebook.com/ . Unless you're logged
   in as me, you're not going to see what I see on the page anyway,
   and there's no way that even I can get the page to show me the
   advert again. Each refresh and it's something different.
 
 
  
 http://www.facebook.com/pages/FlightProSim-The-Real-Life-Flying-Simulator/172036536145550?v=wall
 
 
 Mmmh, interresting.
 And why do they use an A-6E screenshot I have made me-my-own-self ?
 Nah, I just sent to Facebook an inquiry for copyright infringement :-)

..WTG. :o)

 Guys, have a look at the photo albums, because if we find and claim 
 several copyright infringements, they may see their page removed from
 FB.

..and Facebook may help us _recover_ tremble damages. ;o)


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-11 Thread Gijs de Rooy


Hi all!

 XIII wrote:

 And why do they use an A-6E screenshot I have made me-my-own-self ?
 Nah, I just sent to Facebook an inquiry for copyright infringement :-)

Content on the FlightGear wiki also falls under the GNU GPL license (as stated 
at the bottom of this
page), so does this A-6E image. I am not a lawyer, but I do know that a copy of 
the GNU GPL license 
should be attached to the images, which I cannot find at the FaceBook 
page That is a copyright
infringement, right?

Cheers,
Gijs  --
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-11 Thread Robin van Steenbergen

 I am not sure whether the content *generated* by a GPL-licensed 
program (such as FlightGear generating screenshots) would have to be 
licensed under the GPL as well.


To be honest, I doubt it, because a lot of GPL-licensed tools are used 
to generate copyrighted content, even including Hollywood movie 
blockbusters!


Op 11-11-2010 17:46, Gijs de Rooy schreef:

Hi all!

 XIII wrote:

 And why do they use an A-6E screenshot I have made me-my-own-self ?
 Nah, I just sent to Facebook an inquiry for copyright infringement :-)

Content on the FlightGear wiki also falls under the GNU GPL license 
(as stated at the bottom of this
page http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php/File:A-6E.jpg), so does 
this A-6E image. I am not a lawyer, but I do know that a copy of the 
GNU GPL license
should be attached to the images, which I cannot find at the 
FaceBook page That is a copyright

infringement, right?

Cheers,
Gijs



--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-11 Thread Csaba Halász

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Robin van Steenbergen
stone...@stoneynet.nl wrote:
 I am not sure whether the content *generated* by a GPL-licensed program
 (such as FlightGear generating screenshots) would have to be licensed under
 the GPL as well.

 To be honest, I doubt it, because a lot of GPL-licensed tools are used to
 generate copyrighted content, even including Hollywood movie blockbusters!

Of course.
But read again what Gijs said:

 Op 11-11-2010 17:46, Gijs de Rooy schreef:

 Content on the FlightGear wiki also falls under the GNU GPL license (as
 stated at the bottom of this
 page), so does this A-6E image.

The point is that by uploading to FG wiki, xiii put the image under GPL.
It isn't GPL because it was created by a GPL software, it is GPL
because the content on FG wiki is GPL and he accepted that by
uploading.

-- 
Csaba/Jester

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-11 Thread Citronnier - Alexis Bory

Csaba Halász a écrit :
  On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Robin van Steenbergen
  stone...@stoneynet.nl wrote:
  I am not sure whether the content *generated* by a GPL-licensed
  program (such as FlightGear generating screenshots) would have to
  be licensed under the GPL as well.
 
  To be honest, I doubt it, because a lot of GPL-licensed tools are
  used to generate copyrighted content, even including Hollywood
  movie blockbusters!

  Of course. But read again what Gijs said:

  Op 11-11-2010 17:46, Gijs de Rooy schreef:
 
  Content on the FlightGear wiki also falls under the GNU GPL license
  (as stated at the bottom of this page), so does this A-6E image.

  The point is that by uploading to FG wiki, xiii put the image under
  GPL. It isn't GPL because it was created by a GPL software, it is GPL
  because the content on FG wiki is GPL and he accepted that by
  uploading.

Right, Now it may be a good thing to move the wiki and the web site
under CC. I'm not sure  about all details but I think those publication
don't need to be released under GPL, they are not software and belong
to another area that we could protect more efficiently.

Concerning publishing on the web it seems much more easy to claim
copyright infringement than license infringement.

Anyway FB were very fast , they answered me by mail a few hours later
and they simply removed the picture.

Alexis

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-11 Thread Arnt Karlsen

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:50:03 +0100, Robin wrote in message 
4cdc1ebb.4050...@stoneynet.nl:

   I am not sure whether the content *generated* by a GPL-licensed 
 program (such as FlightGear generating screenshots) would have to be 
 licensed under the GPL as well.

..it's the When I push the button on my camera, a picture 
is generated, who owns it? case. ;o)

 To be honest, I doubt it, because a lot of GPL-licensed tools are
 used to generate copyrighted content, even including Hollywood movie 
 blockbusters!

..the picture making art, is in how each picture is composed, 
not in how it's read off the image chip or written to disk.  
(Those 2 technological arts are usually covered by patents.)
And Hollywood too is loud on copyright. ;o)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-11 Thread J. Holden

Either Curt or someone who has contributed a significant amount of code to the 
FlightGear project should look into talking with an open source lawyer.

On copyright grounds, we can only sue to enforce the GPL. Basically, we can 
only make FPS GPL-compliant, which I do not believe they are, but I do know 
they have attempted to become more GPL-compliant (even if it's not technically 
GPL-compliant).

There are other grounds we may be able to sue on besides GPL, though, such as 
false advertising! Only a lawyer can help us figure out what is going wrong 
here. Please look at http://www.softwarefreedom.org/ to see if anyone there can 
help us

Yours
John

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-11 Thread Chris Wilkinson

This looks to be more of a moral issue than a legal one.

I'll tell you what I'll do about this. I was born and raised in Christchurch, 
where this guy operates from, and I will be visiting the city in a months time. 
Perhaps I should pay the guy a visit?

I wanna know where this guy gets off taking all YOUR hard work, and PROFITING 
from it, with NOTHING returned to the flightgear community. The legality of his 
actions could be debated in a court of law forever, but perhaps a bit of face 
time to directly express the sentiments of the flightgear community with the 
dude might convince him that there are REAL people who consider his actions 
immoral - you guys are more than just names attached to code commits on the 
internet, and I think this guy needs to be reminded that without your 
efforts his little endeavour would amount to NOTHING.

I'm sure with some 'friendly persuasion' I can convince the guy to give a bit 
back. After all if he can help the efforts to improve flightgear, that will 
have 
a flow-on effect for him. He scratch our back, we scratch his...

Regards,

Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE.



From: J. Holden stattosoftw...@yahoo.com
To: flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Fri, 12 November, 2010 2:46:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

Either Curt or someone who has contributed a significant amount of code to the 
FlightGear project should look into talking with an open source lawyer.

On copyright grounds, we can only sue to enforce the GPL. Basically, we can 
only 
make FPS GPL-compliant, which I do not believe they are, but I do know they 
have 
attempted to become more GPL-compliant (even if it's not technically 
GPL-compliant).

There are other grounds we may be able to sue on besides GPL, though, such as 
false advertising! Only a lawyer can help us figure out what is going wrong 
here. Please look at http://www.softwarefreedom.org/ to see if anyone there can 
help us

Yours
John

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel



  --
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

On Tue, 9 Nov 2010 23:46:20 -, Vivian wrote in message 
3c9574cdcbb34cc5b329545212bec...@main:

 Mally wrote
 
  
  ?Arnt
  
  I think I have maybe one or two lines of code in FG... I helped fix
  a bug many moons ago. But I like to keep my interest in case
  there's anything I can offer in the future.

..one step ahead of me then. :o)

  Anyway, it's not really about that, and maybe in fact I should not
  concern myself with this issue given that I really have effectively
  no direct interest. 

..wrong, your _undue_ passivity builds a legal prejudice and precedence.
The Jews were gassed because they had no defense arriving Auschwitz,
effectively a _due_ passivity, since they had no weapons, and therefore
no choice in _their_ final matter.  

..FG on the other hand, does have weapons with teeth, Copyright 
Law, as the GPL walks away on violations, and the facts.  Now,
copyright law enforcement history, is also a discoverable fact 
in litigation.

  It still bugs me to see they way this is being
  touted though. Does anyone else have any thoughts?
  
  Regarding the URL, simple it's www.facebook.com  (as you know) but
  FaceBook
  is far from a static page, all composed on the fly and dynamically
  thereafter using ajax and whatever, so there's no URL I can

..url to your facebook page?  Would be the useful 
one url I meant. ;o)

  usefully give you. The advert is no longer there for me, though I
  do have a saved copy of
  the page with it on, plus a screenshot. Has anyone else seen it?

..nope, url to your screenshot?
 
 This topic raises its head every couple of months or so. So far as we
 can see FlightProSimm is being offered in accordance with the terms
 of GPL, 

..where precisely does flightprosim.com, or Charles Taylor, 
or swiftco.net, offer source code under the GPL?

  so here is not a lot we can do. Caveat emptor. 

 It is an affiliate scheme, which is very close to a pyramid scheme.

..if it adds _any_ new required condition to the conditions 
set under the GPL, _that_ new condition is a violation of the
GPL and copyright law.

 It is indeed annoying to see people trying to make money out of our
 work.

..and annoyingly irrelevant too. ;oD

 However, they are offering some added value by selling FG on DVD, 

..how?  That _may_ be another violation of the GPL.

 and we can take some satisfaction from the thought that they are
 perhaps spreading FG wider than we could by our own efforts.
 
 Vivian

..I disagree, until a lawyer is hired by FG or a copyright 
owner, the best way forward, is contact _anyone_ who publishes
FlightProSim reviews, and their advertisers, etc, and ask 
them to explain Why In The World are they endorsing and 
promoting software piracy.  And _loudly_. ;o)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

--
The Next 800 Companies to Lead America's Growth: New Video Whitepaper
David G. Thomson, author of the best-selling book Blueprint to a 
Billion shares his insights and actions to help propel your 
business during the next growth cycle. Listen Now!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/SAP-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 11:32:08 -0800, Hal wrote in message 
201011101132.09107.hven...@gmail.com:

 On Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:23:22 am Arnt Karlsen wrote:
   However, they are offering some added value by selling FG on DVD, 
  
  ..how?  That may be another violation of the GPL.
 
 This is specifically allowed by the GPL which allows for charging for
 media, reproduction and distribution costs.

..correct, assuming there is a real offer of source code under 
the GPL.  
My question is, _do_ they offer the source as required under 
the GPL?

..adding other added value item, e.g. screenshots, how-to's 
etc, is either done in compliance with each copyright owner 
license, or in violation of it, and some owners use the GPL 
there too, hence my may be.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-10 Thread Mally

??  However, they are offering some added value by selling FG on DVD,

 ..how?  That may be another violation of the GPL.

 This is specifically allowed by the GPL which allows for charging for
 media,
 reproduction and distribution costs.

This amazing software package is Yours Risk Free for only $47.00

Are they not more selling a software package rather than charging a fee for 
the physical act of transferring a copy, which along with offering 
warranty protection for a fee, is all that would seem to be specifically 
allowed in terms of commercial activity relating to FlightGear according to 
the relevant GPL?

I won't make any judgement, but I would advise anyone interested to take a 
look at their main web page and draw their own conclusions.

They also state that FPS is copyrighted and protected under the United 
States and other World Wide Copyright Laws. Can someone claim their own 
copyright in this way over a product based substantially or wholly on a GPL 
source? You tell me...

Mally



-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3248 - Release Date: 11/10/10


--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-10 Thread Mally

? My question is, _do_ they offer the source as required under
 the GPL?

Yes, they offer the full source code. Does this offer meet the full 
requirements of how it is to be delivered? I've no idea, but I do recall 
seeing a particular clause which I thought may not have been met. I don't 
have time right now to go back and look again, but I will if people here 
think there is any mileage in following any of this up.

Mally 



-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3248 - Release Date: 11/10/10


--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

2010-11-10 Thread Gene Lege




On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 7:15 PM, Mally ma...@tklm.freeserve.co.uk wrote:

 ??  However, they are offering some added value by selling FG on DVD,
 
  ..how?  That may be another violation of the GPL.
 
  This is specifically allowed by the GPL which allows for charging for
  media,
  reproduction and distribution costs.
 
 
 
 They also state that FPS is copyrighted and protected under the United
 States and other World Wide Copyright Laws. Can someone claim their own
 copyright in this way over a product based substantially or wholly on a
 GPL
 source? You tell me...
 
 Mally


They are not claiming a copyright - they are claiming that  FPS is
copyrighted and protected under the United States and other World Wide
Copyright Laws

Which is an absolutely *true* statement.

It is a true statement intended to deceive and mis-lead  - but
none-the-less, completely true.

I think they just point at flightgear when asked for the source - which
probably does *not* fulfill the letter of the GPL.

gl

-- 
It's just an inch from me to you,
Depending on what map you use
   -   Jewel
--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 01:20:37 -, Mally wrote in message 
ace4bad9dffe47aabb425ffa69afa...@chuchote:

 ? My question is, _do_ they offer the source as required under
  the GPL?
 
 Yes, they offer the full source code. Does this offer meet the full 
 requirements

..yes, this far, no with GPLv3.

 of how it is to be delivered? 

..err, that can be tested, a simple request and then see what happens.

 I've no idea, but I do recall seeing a particular clause which I
 thought may not have been met. I don't have time right now to go back
 and look again, but I will if people here think there is any mileage
 in following any of this up.

..as long as it is onlf a reasonable cost-of-media matter...

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

--
Centralized Desktop Delivery: Dell and VMware Reference Architecture
Simplifying enterprise desktop deployment and management using
Dell EqualLogic storage and VMware View: A highly scalable, end-to-end
client virtualization framework. Read more!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/dell-eql-dev2dev
___
Flightgear-devel mailing list
Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

Re: [Flightgear-devel] FlightProSim advert on FaceBook