Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Steve Smith]

Cody/Glen -

I like this conceit of dreaming as disinhibited/discursive next-token 
generation.


As a sometimes *lucid* dreamer myself, I feel as if that is what is very 
close to what is going on for me... my best lucid dreaming is 
hypnapompic... happening as I awake or as I drift in and out after a 
good sleep (including various fever dreams such as an overheated nap on 
a summer afternoon). Hypnagogic also, but not so much... it seems to be 
a difference in tuning/calibration/angle of entry vs angle of exit?


The *lucidity* of my dreams seem to stem from some kind of split 
attention or an pseudo-adversarial exchange between a *conscious* and an 
*sub*-conscious component of "self".   The mode in which I engage in my 
lucid dreaming experience is usually somewhat active... "guiding" the 
dream-wander willfully but always gently... experience tells me that 
deliberate lucid dreaming is a bit like catching dust-motes or herding 
cats... too much intention blows it up and shuts it down or ruins it 
qualitatively. "directed disinhibition" might be a fair description of 
my best method.  Psychedelic (or opiod?) tripping may be similar for 
some, my experience with such is so acutely limited that I'm just 
guessing from anecdotal references.


One of my early experiences with chatGPT was to try to co-write short 
fiction with it, based on some simple tech or socio-political tweak.   
The final result was rather unsatisfying but Glen's implication that an 
API interface might provide more degrees of freedom than merely 
web-whispering at it.   I hadn't thought of it before this thread came 
up, but the *problems* I had might have been in the category of *trying 
too hard*...  I was probably trying to force  chatGPT to be more of a 
writing assistant than a collaborative dreamer.   Naturally I begin 
those story-weavings with a specific idea of what it is about and where 
it is going.   Perhaps I can re-engage with something closer to Glen's 
prescription?


Jason Yunkaporta in his book Sand Talk 
 invoked a (n Aboriginal) 
term for doing something like this intentionally with other people and 
calls it "Yarning" somewhat discursive from the usual description of 
Aboriginal Dreaming is my own connotative understanding of it as 
"wandering about in the (larger) adjacent possible".  Yarning seems to 
be a collaborative, directed version of this?  The question of "what 
means adjacent?" is begged here methinks.


I have resisted/puzzled-over/enjoyed Glen's assertion/question about 
"communication is an illusion" (probably mis-stating it here?)... and 
wonder how that relates to this "dreaming" business?  It seems that what 
we nominally call (or intend to be) communication is at best the weaving 
of yarns (and that is a good thing)?


For the musically inclined: Dream On 
! - Aerosmith or a 
Cinematic Slam version  
(more to the spirit of adversarial collaboration)...


For the western take on eastern mystics among us, Alan Watts 
...


Discursively yours,

    - Steve


On 9/8/23 8:03 AM, glen wrote:
One of the things we could easily try is cumulative, iterative 
prompting, particularly with some of the lower scoring responses. 
Dreams are nothing but lower scoring responses, right? While you're 
sleeping, your evaluation/selection mechanism is inhibited, which 
allows you to invest a little more in the total bullshit your own 
next-token generator generates. So for, say ChatGPT to dream, it 
simply needs instructions, including higher temperatures, to be less 
critical of its own responses. It would be annoying to try to do it 
with the web interface, but trivial to do with the API. The hidden 
pre-prompt could be engineered such that the n+1 prompt is a 
(algorithmic or random) composition of the, say, 10 responses to the 
nth prompt. Etc. This would be akin to dreaming, I think. At the end 
of however many iterations, you wake it up and write the highest 
scoring result down in its dream journal.


Maybe I'll try that with Falcon. I can't divert my OAI budget to it.

On 9/7/23 12:37, cody dooderson wrote:
I asked ChatGPT if it dreamed and it said that it didn't. However, is 
adversarial training of neural networks much different than dreaming?


A new class from MITX showed up in my email today. It is called 
/Minds and Machines: An introduction to philosophy of mind, exploring 
consciousness, reality, AI, and more. The most in-depth philosophy 
course available online. 
/https://mitxonline.mit.edu/courses/course-v1:MITxT+24.09x/ 


It may help with this question.
/
/
_ Cody Smith _
c...@simtable.com 


On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 12:25 PM Steve Smith > wrote:


    Great observations as usual Glen...   I have lapsed 

Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[glen]

One of the things we could easily try is cumulative, iterative prompting, 
particularly with some of the lower scoring responses. Dreams are nothing but 
lower scoring responses, right? While you're sleeping, your 
evaluation/selection mechanism is inhibited, which allows you to invest a 
little more in the total bullshit your own next-token generator generates. So 
for, say ChatGPT to dream, it simply needs instructions, including higher 
temperatures, to be less critical of its own responses. It would be annoying to 
try to do it with the web interface, but trivial to do with the API. The hidden 
pre-prompt could be engineered such that the n+1 prompt is a (algorithmic or 
random) composition of the, say, 10 responses to the nth prompt. Etc. This 
would be akin to dreaming, I think. At the end of however many iterations, you 
wake it up and write the highest scoring result down in its dream journal.

Maybe I'll try that with Falcon. I can't divert my OAI budget to it.

On 9/7/23 12:37, cody dooderson wrote:

I asked ChatGPT if it dreamed and it said that it didn't. However, is 
adversarial training of neural networks much different than dreaming?

A new class from MITX showed up in my email today. It is called /Minds and Machines: 
An introduction to philosophy of mind, exploring consciousness, reality, AI, and 
more. The most in-depth philosophy course available online. 
/https://mitxonline.mit.edu/courses/course-v1:MITxT+24.09x/ 

It may help with this question.
/
/
_ Cody Smith _
c...@simtable.com 


On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 12:25 PM Steve Smith mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:

Great observations as usual Glen...   I have lapsed into *listening* to
almost all long-form writing, whether fiction or non  and it
definitely distorts (torts?) my perception/conception of the
material/subject/message.   A corollary to McLuhan's Medium/Message
duality?

   I find the "output" side to be more specific (or conscious) for me
than the "input" side.   Your point of cuneoform
sticks/quills/pencils/keyboard/gestural-interpreters being part of our
extended phenotype is very apt as is the idea that (if I understand your
intentions) it (intrinsically) effects our interoception and
inter-subjective realities.

I also appreciate your reflections on "mal" and "dis" which I have lived
with all of my life... "judging" or "discriminating" in ways which
themselves are "adaptive" for one suite of purposes but perhaps
"mal"/"dis" for another suite.   Having a vector or tensor fitness
function with (arbitrary) signs on the elements doesn't guarantee they
themselves are "fit" for what you think they are.

Do Androids dream of Electric Sheep?   Do LLM's (or larger adaptive
systems they are embedded in?) dream of the tensor fields they are
embedded in or create or co-create with the fields of human
activity/history/knowledge/experience/future/manifesting-destiny they
were designed to model/emulate/expose/facilitate/co-evolve with?

I dunno,  but it sure is a fascinating milieu to be surfing through in
these auspicious days at the beginning (or end) of the Anthropocene.

   - Steve

On 9/7/23 1:01 PM, glen wrote:
 > Both keyboards and pencils are part of our extended phenotype and play
 > (multiple) roles in interoception, including the induction of
 > inter-subjectivity. I've forgotten who it is, but there's someone on
 > this list who *listens* to our posts, rather than reads them. I tried
 > that with a blog post this morning during my mobility routine:
 >
 > https://www.emilkirkegaard.com/p/preferences-can-be-sick-mental-illness 

 >
 > 
 > Then because I had an allergic reaction to what I heard, I *read* it
 > later. Listening to it disgusted me. I came away thinking this
 > Kirkegaard dude's akin to a scientific racist ... or maybe a
 > eugenecist. I admit to being a fan of Thomas Szasz back in the day. (A
 > friend's mom actually dated him at some point ... allegedly.) But at
 > this point, I've been infected by the Woke Mind Virus; and it's
 > difficult to stomach phrases like "strict homosexuality is more
 > disordered than bisexuality." Reading it, however, helped me remember
 > that maladaption is part and parcel of adaption. Disorder is part and
 > parcel of order. The "mal" and "dis" prefixes are nothing but
 > value-laden subjectivity. The goo of reality extruded through the mold
 > of the author/thinker/subject. For someone like Kirkegaard to claim
 > they're being "objective" while using the "mal" prefix is not even
 > wrong. It's just bullshit. Apparently, my Woke Virus infection is
 > worse near my ears than near my eyes.
 > 
 >
 > But the point 

Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[cody dooderson]

I asked ChatGPT if it dreamed and it said that it didn't. However, is
adversarial training of neural networks much different than dreaming?

A new class from MITX showed up in my email today. It is called *Minds and
Machines: An introduction to philosophy of mind, exploring consciousness,
reality, AI, and more. The most in-depth philosophy course available
online. *https://mitxonline.mit.edu/courses/course-v1:MITxT+24.09x/
It may help with this question.

_ Cody Smith _
c...@simtable.com


On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 12:25 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Great observations as usual Glen...   I have lapsed into *listening* to
> almost all long-form writing, whether fiction or non  and it
> definitely distorts (torts?) my perception/conception of the
> material/subject/message.   A corollary to McLuhan's Medium/Message
> duality?
>
>   I find the "output" side to be more specific (or conscious) for me
> than the "input" side.   Your point of cuneoform
> sticks/quills/pencils/keyboard/gestural-interpreters being part of our
> extended phenotype is very apt as is the idea that (if I understand your
> intentions) it (intrinsically) effects our interoception and
> inter-subjective realities.
>
> I also appreciate your reflections on "mal" and "dis" which I have lived
> with all of my life... "judging" or "discriminating" in ways which
> themselves are "adaptive" for one suite of purposes but perhaps
> "mal"/"dis" for another suite.   Having a vector or tensor fitness
> function with (arbitrary) signs on the elements doesn't guarantee they
> themselves are "fit" for what you think they are.
>
> Do Androids dream of Electric Sheep?   Do LLM's (or larger adaptive
> systems they are embedded in?) dream of the tensor fields they are
> embedded in or create or co-create with the fields of human
> activity/history/knowledge/experience/future/manifesting-destiny they
> were designed to model/emulate/expose/facilitate/co-evolve with?
>
> I dunno,  but it sure is a fascinating milieu to be surfing through in
> these auspicious days at the beginning (or end) of the Anthropocene.
>
>   - Steve
>
> On 9/7/23 1:01 PM, glen wrote:
> > Both keyboards and pencils are part of our extended phenotype and play
> > (multiple) roles in interoception, including the induction of
> > inter-subjectivity. I've forgotten who it is, but there's someone on
> > this list who *listens* to our posts, rather than reads them. I tried
> > that with a blog post this morning during my mobility routine:
> >
> > https://www.emilkirkegaard.com/p/preferences-can-be-sick-mental-illness
> >
> > 
> > Then because I had an allergic reaction to what I heard, I *read* it
> > later. Listening to it disgusted me. I came away thinking this
> > Kirkegaard dude's akin to a scientific racist ... or maybe a
> > eugenecist. I admit to being a fan of Thomas Szasz back in the day. (A
> > friend's mom actually dated him at some point ... allegedly.) But at
> > this point, I've been infected by the Woke Mind Virus; and it's
> > difficult to stomach phrases like "strict homosexuality is more
> > disordered than bisexuality." Reading it, however, helped me remember
> > that maladaption is part and parcel of adaption. Disorder is part and
> > parcel of order. The "mal" and "dis" prefixes are nothing but
> > value-laden subjectivity. The goo of reality extruded through the mold
> > of the author/thinker/subject. For someone like Kirkegaard to claim
> > they're being "objective" while using the "mal" prefix is not even
> > wrong. It's just bullshit. Apparently, my Woke Virus infection is
> > worse near my ears than near my eyes.
> > 
> >
> > But the point is that *which* extended trait you use (pencil, audio,
> > text, etc.) chooses which interoceptive cycle you engage. And when you
> > pretend to make such a choice on purpose, at will, any assignation of
> > fault would be transitive. Which wolf do you feed?
> >
> > On 9/4/23 10:29, Steve Smith wrote:
> >> I'm not sure my facility with the keyboard actually serves me. As
> >> many of you may suspect, and I suspect so myself, it allows me to be
> >> much less thoughtful and rigorous than I would be in handwriting or
> >> if I had some other throttle or impedance elements between linguistic
> >> centers and "paper"?
> >
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Steve Smith]

Great observations as usual Glen...   I have lapsed into *listening* to 
almost all long-form writing, whether fiction or non  and it 
definitely distorts (torts?) my perception/conception of the 
material/subject/message.   A corollary to McLuhan's Medium/Message 
duality?


 I find the "output" side to be more specific (or conscious) for me 
than the "input" side.   Your point of cuneoform 
sticks/quills/pencils/keyboard/gestural-interpreters being part of our 
extended phenotype is very apt as is the idea that (if I understand your 
intentions) it (intrinsically) effects our interoception and 
inter-subjective realities.


I also appreciate your reflections on "mal" and "dis" which I have lived 
with all of my life... "judging" or "discriminating" in ways which 
themselves are "adaptive" for one suite of purposes but perhaps 
"mal"/"dis" for another suite.   Having a vector or tensor fitness 
function with (arbitrary) signs on the elements doesn't guarantee they 
themselves are "fit" for what you think they are.


Do Androids dream of Electric Sheep?   Do LLM's (or larger adaptive 
systems they are embedded in?) dream of the tensor fields they are 
embedded in or create or co-create with the fields of human 
activity/history/knowledge/experience/future/manifesting-destiny they 
were designed to model/emulate/expose/facilitate/co-evolve with?


I dunno,  but it sure is a fascinating milieu to be surfing through in 
these auspicious days at the beginning (or end) of the Anthropocene.


 - Steve

On 9/7/23 1:01 PM, glen wrote:
Both keyboards and pencils are part of our extended phenotype and play 
(multiple) roles in interoception, including the induction of 
inter-subjectivity. I've forgotten who it is, but there's someone on 
this list who *listens* to our posts, rather than reads them. I tried 
that with a blog post this morning during my mobility routine:


https://www.emilkirkegaard.com/p/preferences-can-be-sick-mental-illness


Then because I had an allergic reaction to what I heard, I *read* it 
later. Listening to it disgusted me. I came away thinking this 
Kirkegaard dude's akin to a scientific racist ... or maybe a 
eugenecist. I admit to being a fan of Thomas Szasz back in the day. (A 
friend's mom actually dated him at some point ... allegedly.) But at 
this point, I've been infected by the Woke Mind Virus; and it's 
difficult to stomach phrases like "strict homosexuality is more 
disordered than bisexuality." Reading it, however, helped me remember 
that maladaption is part and parcel of adaption. Disorder is part and 
parcel of order. The "mal" and "dis" prefixes are nothing but 
value-laden subjectivity. The goo of reality extruded through the mold 
of the author/thinker/subject. For someone like Kirkegaard to claim 
they're being "objective" while using the "mal" prefix is not even 
wrong. It's just bullshit. Apparently, my Woke Virus infection is 
worse near my ears than near my eyes.



But the point is that *which* extended trait you use (pencil, audio, 
text, etc.) chooses which interoceptive cycle you engage. And when you 
pretend to make such a choice on purpose, at will, any assignation of 
fault would be transitive. Which wolf do you feed?


On 9/4/23 10:29, Steve Smith wrote:
I'm not sure my facility with the keyboard actually serves me. As 
many of you may suspect, and I suspect so myself, it allows me to be 
much less thoughtful and rigorous than I would be in handwriting or 
if I had some other throttle or impedance elements between linguistic 
centers and "paper"?




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Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[glen]

Both keyboards and pencils are part of our extended phenotype and play 
(multiple) roles in interoception, including the induction of 
inter-subjectivity. I've forgotten who it is, but there's someone on this list 
who *listens* to our posts, rather than reads them. I tried that with a blog 
post this morning during my mobility routine:

https://www.emilkirkegaard.com/p/preferences-can-be-sick-mental-illness


Then because I had an allergic reaction to what I heard, I *read* it later. Listening to it disgusted me. I came away thinking 
this Kirkegaard dude's akin to a scientific racist ... or maybe a eugenecist. I admit to being a fan of Thomas Szasz back in the 
day. (A friend's mom actually dated him at some point ... allegedly.) But at this point, I've been infected by the Woke Mind 
Virus; and it's difficult to stomach phrases like "strict homosexuality is more disordered than bisexuality." Reading 
it, however, helped me remember that maladaption is part and parcel of adaption. Disorder is part and parcel of order. The 
"mal" and "dis" prefixes are nothing but value-laden subjectivity. The goo of reality extruded through the 
mold of the author/thinker/subject. For someone like Kirkegaard to claim they're being "objective" while using the 
"mal" prefix is not even wrong. It's just bullshit. Apparently, my Woke Virus infection is worse near my ears than near 
my eyes.


But the point is that *which* extended trait you use (pencil, audio, text, 
etc.) chooses which interoceptive cycle you engage. And when you pretend to 
make such a choice on purpose, at will, any assignation of fault would be 
transitive. Which wolf do you feed?

On 9/4/23 10:29, Steve Smith wrote:

I'm not sure my facility with the keyboard actually serves me. As many of you may 
suspect, and I suspect so myself, it allows me to be much less thoughtful and rigorous 
than I would be in handwriting or if I had some other throttle or impedance elements 
between linguistic centers and "paper"?


--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Frank Wimberly]

Read Blood Meridian, Nick.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Sep 4, 2023, 1:13 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Hi, Steve,
>
> Thanks for your observations concerning bad hand writing and early typing
> as shaping The Mind, for better or for worse.  My handwriting is hopeless.
> I cannot even read my own notes. Not sure what it has done to my mind, but
> it is something else that we share.
>
> I know I am bending the thread, here, but I think of Cormac MacCarthy's 
> *Stella
> Maris* as a kind of science fiction ... historical science fiction,
> perhaps?  I have read it twice this summer.  A Romance, of sorts.
>
> Nick
>
> On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 1:31 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>> Great list Carl!  And more interesting yet to me:
>>
>> *I would like to feed...*
>> *...into the AI and see what millennium long sci-fi it could turn out. *
>>
>> I'm definitely fascinated by the implied interpolation (and
>> extrapolation?) an LLM can do in what is by definition firstly *linguistic*
>> space and what that implies for it's ?dual? in conceptual space?
>>
>> and even more interesting:
>>
>> *How would what it writes be different if it could be taught to write
>> using a nib pen a la Stephenson or a brush on washi paper?*
>>
>> In my lifetime I have kept various chronicles and correspondence via
>> handwriting using (mostly) roller-ball ink pens but also for some periods
>> fountain pens.A great deal more of that type of
>> chronicle/correspondence was effected on a keyboard much like (or exactly)
>> the one I'm typing on now (circa 2011 13" Macbook Pro)... As you all
>> painfully know, I'm pretty prolific in e-mail/e-txt which reflects a few
>> things:
>>
>>- my handwriting is abysmal and can be
>>physically/emotionally/mentally excruciating to execute sometimes.
>>- I learned to type at a very young age to compensate for the above
>>and it really freed me.
>>- I sometimes feel that I am actually *thinking* differently whilst
>>using the von-Neuman-esque linear "tape" as extended memory/program-space.
>>- I have at times in my life had a similar experience when working
>>with mathematical notation and with geometric constructions.
>>- These experiences are significantly different qualitatively (when
>>done by hand vs keyboard/mouse/etc)...
>>   - each mode is distinct with benefits/detractions
>>   - I feel I *think* and *feel* differently when coupling my
>>   cognitive self to my recorded/expressive self?
>>
>> I choose to use a fountain pen on well-toothed paper when I want to write
>> "meditatively"... the feel of the nib on the tooth and the flow of the ink
>> and the smell and the sounds all provide something similar to "breath work"
>> for me.
>>
>> I'm not sure my facility with the keyboard actually serves me.   As many
>> of you may suspect, and I suspect so myself, it allows me to be much less
>> thoughtful and rigorous than I would be in handwriting or if I had some
>> other throttle or impedance elements between linguistic centers and "paper"?
>> On 9/3/23 10:44 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:
>>
>> Gregory Benford's "Galactic Center Saga".
>> Greg Bear's "Darwin's Radio" and "The Way" series.
>> Benford, Bear, and David Brin also extended Asimov's "Foundation" series
>> - more stuff actually happens
>> Larry Niven's "Ringworld" and all its spinoffs and prequels, anything
>> with the character Louis Wu in it.
>> Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age"
>> Bruce Sterling's "Distraction"
>> Anything by Terry Pratchett.
>> Adrian Tchaikovsky's "Children of Time" and sequels.
>> Lin Carter's short story "Masters of the Metropolis"
>>
>> That should keep you busy for a few days.  I suspect not everyone would
>> think of these as optimistic.
>>
>> I would like to feed Timothy Snyder's Youtube lectures on Ukraine
>> and Neal Stephenson's "Quicksilver"
>> and Eiji Yoshikawa's "Taiko"
>> into the AI and see what millennium long sci-fi it could turn out.
>> How would what it writes be different if it could be taught to write
>> using a nib pen a la Stephenson or a brush on washi paper?
>>
>> R.A. Lafferty wrote sometime ago "Arrive at Easterwine" about a computer
>> writing a novel from a mashup perspective of its creators.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 11:13 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>>
>>> I have read "Highway of Eternity" from Clifford D. Simak this weekend,
>>> one of the books from the golden age of science fiction which is comparable
>>> to "The city and the Stars" from Arthur C. Clarke and "The end of eternity"
>>> from Isaac Asimov. Both belong to my favorite books. Modern authors don't
>>> write like this anymore. Their books are often gloomy and depressive, and
>>> do not span millions of years. What is your favorite science fiction book?
>>> Will the AI breakthrough in large language models lead to more optimistic
>>> science fiction books again?
>>>
>>> -J.
>>>
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- 

Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Nicholas Thompson]

Hi, Steve,

Thanks for your observations concerning bad hand writing and early typing
as shaping The Mind, for better or for worse.  My handwriting is hopeless.
I cannot even read my own notes. Not sure what it has done to my mind, but
it is something else that we share.

I know I am bending the thread, here, but I think of Cormac MacCarthy's *Stella
Maris* as a kind of science fiction ... historical science fiction,
perhaps?  I have read it twice this summer.  A Romance, of sorts.

Nick

On Mon, Sep 4, 2023 at 1:31 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Great list Carl!  And more interesting yet to me:
>
> *I would like to feed...*
> *...into the AI and see what millennium long sci-fi it could turn out. *
>
> I'm definitely fascinated by the implied interpolation (and
> extrapolation?) an LLM can do in what is by definition firstly *linguistic*
> space and what that implies for it's ?dual? in conceptual space?
>
> and even more interesting:
>
> *How would what it writes be different if it could be taught to write
> using a nib pen a la Stephenson or a brush on washi paper?*
>
> In my lifetime I have kept various chronicles and correspondence via
> handwriting using (mostly) roller-ball ink pens but also for some periods
> fountain pens.A great deal more of that type of
> chronicle/correspondence was effected on a keyboard much like (or exactly)
> the one I'm typing on now (circa 2011 13" Macbook Pro)... As you all
> painfully know, I'm pretty prolific in e-mail/e-txt which reflects a few
> things:
>
>- my handwriting is abysmal and can be physically/emotionally/mentally
>excruciating to execute sometimes.
>- I learned to type at a very young age to compensate for the above
>and it really freed me.
>- I sometimes feel that I am actually *thinking* differently whilst
>using the von-Neuman-esque linear "tape" as extended memory/program-space.
>- I have at times in my life had a similar experience when working
>with mathematical notation and with geometric constructions.
>- These experiences are significantly different qualitatively (when
>done by hand vs keyboard/mouse/etc)...
>   - each mode is distinct with benefits/detractions
>   - I feel I *think* and *feel* differently when coupling my
>   cognitive self to my recorded/expressive self?
>
> I choose to use a fountain pen on well-toothed paper when I want to write
> "meditatively"... the feel of the nib on the tooth and the flow of the ink
> and the smell and the sounds all provide something similar to "breath work"
> for me.
>
> I'm not sure my facility with the keyboard actually serves me.   As many
> of you may suspect, and I suspect so myself, it allows me to be much less
> thoughtful and rigorous than I would be in handwriting or if I had some
> other throttle or impedance elements between linguistic centers and "paper"?
> On 9/3/23 10:44 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:
>
> Gregory Benford's "Galactic Center Saga".
> Greg Bear's "Darwin's Radio" and "The Way" series.
> Benford, Bear, and David Brin also extended Asimov's "Foundation" series -
> more stuff actually happens
> Larry Niven's "Ringworld" and all its spinoffs and prequels, anything with
> the character Louis Wu in it.
> Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age"
> Bruce Sterling's "Distraction"
> Anything by Terry Pratchett.
> Adrian Tchaikovsky's "Children of Time" and sequels.
> Lin Carter's short story "Masters of the Metropolis"
>
> That should keep you busy for a few days.  I suspect not everyone would
> think of these as optimistic.
>
> I would like to feed Timothy Snyder's Youtube lectures on Ukraine
> and Neal Stephenson's "Quicksilver"
> and Eiji Yoshikawa's "Taiko"
> into the AI and see what millennium long sci-fi it could turn out.
> How would what it writes be different if it could be taught to write using
> a nib pen a la Stephenson or a brush on washi paper?
>
> R.A. Lafferty wrote sometime ago "Arrive at Easterwine" about a computer
> writing a novel from a mashup perspective of its creators.
>
> Carl
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 11:13 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
>> I have read "Highway of Eternity" from Clifford D. Simak this weekend,
>> one of the books from the golden age of science fiction which is comparable
>> to "The city and the Stars" from Arthur C. Clarke and "The end of eternity"
>> from Isaac Asimov. Both belong to my favorite books. Modern authors don't
>> write like this anymore. Their books are often gloomy and depressive, and
>> do not span millions of years. What is your favorite science fiction book?
>> Will the AI breakthrough in large language models lead to more optimistic
>> science fiction books again?
>>
>> -J.
>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC 

Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Steve Smith]

Great list Carl!  And more interesting yet to me:

   /I would like to feed.../
   /...into the AI and see what millennium long sci-fi it could turn out. /

I'm definitely fascinated by the implied interpolation (and 
extrapolation?) an LLM can do in what is by definition firstly 
*linguistic* space and what that implies for it's ?dual? in conceptual 
space?


and even more interesting:

   /How would what it writes be different if it could be taught to
   write using a nib pen a la Stephenson or a brush on washi paper?/

In my lifetime I have kept various chronicles and correspondence via 
handwriting using (mostly) roller-ball ink pens but also for some 
periods fountain pens.    A great deal more of that type of 
chronicle/correspondence was effected on a keyboard much like (or 
exactly) the one I'm typing on now (circa 2011 13" Macbook Pro)... As 
you all painfully know, I'm pretty prolific in e-mail/e-txt which 
reflects a few things:


 * my handwriting is abysmal and can be physically/emotionally/mentally
   excruciating to execute sometimes.
 * I learned to type at a very young age to compensate for the above
   and it really freed me.
 * I sometimes feel that I am actually *thinking* differently whilst
   using the von-Neuman-esque linear "tape" as extended
   memory/program-space.
 * I have at times in my life had a similar experience when working
   with mathematical notation and with geometric constructions.
 * These experiences are significantly different qualitatively (when
   done by hand vs keyboard/mouse/etc)...
 o each mode is distinct with benefits/detractions
 o I feel I *think* and *feel* differently when coupling my
   cognitive self to my recorded/expressive self?

I choose to use a fountain pen on well-toothed paper when I want to 
write "meditatively"... the feel of the nib on the tooth and the flow of 
the ink and the smell and the sounds all provide something similar to 
"breath work" for me.


I'm not sure my facility with the keyboard actually serves me. As many 
of you may suspect, and I suspect so myself, it allows me to be much 
less thoughtful and rigorous than I would be in handwriting or if I had 
some other throttle or impedance elements between linguistic centers and 
"paper"?


On 9/3/23 10:44 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:

Gregory Benford's "Galactic Center Saga".
Greg Bear's "Darwin's Radio" and "The Way" series.
Benford, Bear, and David Brin also extended Asimov's "Foundation" 
series - more stuff actually happens
Larry Niven's "Ringworld" and all its spinoffs and prequels, anything 
with the character Louis Wu in it.

Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age"
Bruce Sterling's "Distraction"
Anything by Terry Pratchett.
Adrian Tchaikovsky's "Children of Time" and sequels.
Lin Carter's short story "Masters of the Metropolis"

That should keep you busy for a few days.  I suspect not everyone 
would think of these as optimistic.


I would like to feed Timothy Snyder's Youtube lectures on Ukraine
and Neal Stephenson's "Quicksilver"
and Eiji Yoshikawa's "Taiko"
into the AI and see what millennium long sci-fi it could turn out.
How would what it writes be different if it could be taught to write 
using a nib pen a la Stephenson or a brush on washi paper?


R.A. Lafferty wrote sometime ago "Arrive at Easterwine" about a 
computer writing a novel from a mashup perspective of its creators.


Carl


On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 11:13 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

I have read "Highway of Eternity" from Clifford D. Simak this
weekend, one of the books from the golden age of science fiction
which is comparable to "The city and the Stars" from Arthur C.
Clarke and "The end of eternity" from Isaac Asimov. Both belong to
my favorite books. Modern authors don't write like this anymore.
Their books are often gloomy and depressive, and do not span
millions of years. What is your favorite science fiction book?
Will the AI breakthrough in large language models lead to more
optimistic science fiction books again?

-J.

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Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Carl Tollander]

Gregory Benford's "Galactic Center Saga".
Greg Bear's "Darwin's Radio" and "The Way" series.
Benford, Bear, and David Brin also extended Asimov's "Foundation" series -
more stuff actually happens
Larry Niven's "Ringworld" and all its spinoffs and prequels, anything with
the character Louis Wu in it.
Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age"
Bruce Sterling's "Distraction"
Anything by Terry Pratchett.
Adrian Tchaikovsky's "Children of Time" and sequels.
Lin Carter's short story "Masters of the Metropolis"

That should keep you busy for a few days.  I suspect not everyone would
think of these as optimistic.

I would like to feed Timothy Snyder's Youtube lectures on Ukraine
and Neal Stephenson's "Quicksilver"
and Eiji Yoshikawa's "Taiko"
into the AI and see what millennium long sci-fi it could turn out.
How would what it writes be different if it could be taught to write using
a nib pen a la Stephenson or a brush on washi paper?

R.A. Lafferty wrote sometime ago "Arrive at Easterwine" about a computer
writing a novel from a mashup perspective of its creators.

Carl


On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 11:13 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> I have read "Highway of Eternity" from Clifford D. Simak this weekend, one
> of the books from the golden age of science fiction which is comparable to
> "The city and the Stars" from Arthur C. Clarke and "The end of eternity"
> from Isaac Asimov. Both belong to my favorite books. Modern authors don't
> write like this anymore. Their books are often gloomy and depressive, and
> do not span millions of years. What is your favorite science fiction book?
> Will the AI breakthrough in large language models lead to more optimistic
> science fiction books again?
>
> -J.
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Frank Wimberly]

I had posted a link to an article about a mass shooting in Norway in
response to a claim that most mass shootings occur in the U.S.  I can't
find that post so I'll repeat it.  This was only one attack but 77 people
were killed.


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/anders-behring-breivik-appeal-european-court-of-human-rights-norway-massacre/


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, 11:13 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> I have read "Highway of Eternity" from Clifford D. Simak this weekend, one
> of the books from the golden age of science fiction which is comparable to
> "The city and the Stars" from Arthur C. Clarke and "The end of eternity"
> from Isaac Asimov. Both belong to my favorite books. Modern authors don't
> write like this anymore. Their books are often gloomy and depressive, and
> do not span millions of years. What is your favorite science fiction book?
> Will the AI breakthrough in large language models lead to more optimistic
> science fiction books again?
>
> -J.
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Frank Wimberly]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/anders-behring-breivik-appeal-european-court-of-human-rights-norway-massacre/


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, 3:21 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> At one point, maybe still, the largest mass shooting took place in
> Norway.  Correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, 3:16 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
>> Well, I still believe there is a gun problem in the United States, yes.
>> Definitely. Just recently a police officer fatally shot a pregnant Black
>> woman in the parking lot of a grocery store in Ohio after she refused to
>> exit her car. And Ohio is not even a red state, right? It is also well
>> known that the US has substantially more mass shootings than other
>> countries. This is one reason why I do not want to travel to the USA at the
>> moment - South Africa also does not feel safe to me after various reports
>> in the last months about missing tourists.
>>
>> The other is the lack of good food. In Europe and Asia there is such a
>> variety of good restaurants and healthy food. In Germany and Great Britain
>> not so much, except in the larger cities, but in the Mediterranean
>> countries like Spain, Italy, Greece and Israel the food is awesome. In
>> South Korea, Thailand, Vietnam and Japan as well.
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>> ---- Original message 
>> From: Steve Smith 
>> Date: 9/3/23 8:59 PM (GMT+01:00)
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books
>>
>> Jochen -
>>
>> I thought of you more than few times on my long walkabout through
>> Red/Purple-state 'murrica...  mostly your concerns a year or two ago about
>> traveling to the US "because gun violence".   I was in the heart of "gun
>> country" through this trip and saw a few artifacts of that which would
>> naturally be *very* disturbing (methinks) to someone not already innured to
>> it... but not nearly as many as you might expect.  On the other hand I just
>> saw a news item that Canada and many other first-world countries have in
>> place "travel warnings" for not the US proper, but many of the more
>> egregious "red states".   I believe you may have already made your
>> 'murrican sojourn so the point may be moot... but I couldn't help thinking
>> "how would Jochen see this?" as I stumbled through a landscape of bison,
>> hay bales, corn fields, motorcycles, strip malls, and gun shows.
>>
>> I have read "Highway of Eternity" from Clifford D. Simak this weekend,
>> one of the books from the golden age of science fiction which is comparable
>> to "The city and the Stars" from Arthur C. Clarke and "The end of eternity"
>> from Isaac Asimov. Both belong to my favorite books. Modern authors don't
>> write like this anymore. Their books are often gloomy and depressive, and
>> do not span millions of years. What is your favorite science fiction book?
>> Will the AI breakthrough in large language models lead to more optimistic
>> science fiction books again?
>>
>> Back on topic:  I grew up on a lot of "Golden Age" works/authors which
>> includes Simak/Clarke/Asimov of course.   I would claim that this time was
>> naturally one of "Utopianism" that came with the rapid development of
>> industry/technology/science.  I think the Dystopianism ramped up with
>> PostModernism and Cyberpunk.   I'm a big fan of Cyberpunk (esp..
>> Gibson/Sterling/Stephenson/Cadigan/etc.) and *some* post-Apocalyptic
>> works... now almost exclusively "CliFi" (Climate Fiction), but I get your
>> yearning for "the good ole days".   I'd say Elon Musk grew up on "too much
>> Utopian SF" as well and (unlike me) hasn't outgrown it?
>>
>> My *favorite* golden-age author is Jack Williamson
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Williamson> who I've mentioned here
>> before and had the distinction of being somewhat elder when he published
>> his first work at age 20 (1928) in Hugo Gernsback's first-of-kind Amazing
>> Stories (1926).   I feel like he hit his stride after WWII where he had
>> been a (civilian, not military due to age) Weatherman in the Pacific and
>> reacted to a dawning self-awareness of the flip side of techno-Utopianism
>> (exemplified by Hiroshima/Nagasaki)...   His (re)entry into publication
>> after a long hiatus (during/after WWII) was With Folded H

Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Frank Wimberly]

At one point, maybe still, the largest mass shooting took place in Norway.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, 3:16 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> Well, I still believe there is a gun problem in the United States, yes.
> Definitely. Just recently a police officer fatally shot a pregnant Black
> woman in the parking lot of a grocery store in Ohio after she refused to
> exit her car. And Ohio is not even a red state, right? It is also well
> known that the US has substantially more mass shootings than other
> countries. This is one reason why I do not want to travel to the USA at the
> moment - South Africa also does not feel safe to me after various reports
> in the last months about missing tourists.
>
> The other is the lack of good food. In Europe and Asia there is such a
> variety of good restaurants and healthy food. In Germany and Great Britain
> not so much, except in the larger cities, but in the Mediterranean
> countries like Spain, Italy, Greece and Israel the food is awesome. In
> South Korea, Thailand, Vietnam and Japan as well.
>
> -J.
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Steve Smith 
> Date: 9/3/23 8:59 PM (GMT+01:00)
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books
>
> Jochen -
>
> I thought of you more than few times on my long walkabout through
> Red/Purple-state 'murrica...  mostly your concerns a year or two ago about
> traveling to the US "because gun violence".   I was in the heart of "gun
> country" through this trip and saw a few artifacts of that which would
> naturally be *very* disturbing (methinks) to someone not already innured to
> it... but not nearly as many as you might expect.  On the other hand I just
> saw a news item that Canada and many other first-world countries have in
> place "travel warnings" for not the US proper, but many of the more
> egregious "red states".   I believe you may have already made your
> 'murrican sojourn so the point may be moot... but I couldn't help thinking
> "how would Jochen see this?" as I stumbled through a landscape of bison,
> hay bales, corn fields, motorcycles, strip malls, and gun shows.
>
> I have read "Highway of Eternity" from Clifford D. Simak this weekend, one
> of the books from the golden age of science fiction which is comparable to
> "The city and the Stars" from Arthur C. Clarke and "The end of eternity"
> from Isaac Asimov. Both belong to my favorite books. Modern authors don't
> write like this anymore. Their books are often gloomy and depressive, and
> do not span millions of years. What is your favorite science fiction book?
> Will the AI breakthrough in large language models lead to more optimistic
> science fiction books again?
>
> Back on topic:  I grew up on a lot of "Golden Age" works/authors which
> includes Simak/Clarke/Asimov of course.   I would claim that this time was
> naturally one of "Utopianism" that came with the rapid development of
> industry/technology/science.  I think the Dystopianism ramped up with
> PostModernism and Cyberpunk.   I'm a big fan of Cyberpunk (esp..
> Gibson/Sterling/Stephenson/Cadigan/etc.) and *some* post-Apocalyptic
> works... now almost exclusively "CliFi" (Climate Fiction), but I get your
> yearning for "the good ole days".   I'd say Elon Musk grew up on "too much
> Utopian SF" as well and (unlike me) hasn't outgrown it?
>
> My *favorite* golden-age author is Jack Williamson
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Williamson> who I've mentioned here
> before and had the distinction of being somewhat elder when he published
> his first work at age 20 (1928) in Hugo Gernsback's first-of-kind Amazing
> Stories (1926).   I feel like he hit his stride after WWII where he had
> been a (civilian, not military due to age) Weatherman in the Pacific and
> reacted to a dawning self-awareness of the flip side of techno-Utopianism
> (exemplified by Hiroshima/Nagasaki)...   His (re)entry into publication
> after a long hiatus (during/after WWII) was With Folded Hands
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_Folded_Hands>, a reflective dystopian
> view of techno-utopianism as well as work presaging Asimov's Robot series
> as well as a plethora of concepts like
> Borg/Cylon/Replicant/Terminators/Cybermen/Sentinels, etc...   and of course
> all of this was preceded by Lem's Trurl and Klapaucius (wizard-robot
> constructors) and the Hebrew Golem (and Frankenstein's Monster and... and
> and.)  He wrote over 50 novels ultimately in his 98 year long life as well
> as myriad short stories, novellas and a 3 year run 

Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Jochen Fromm]

Well, I still believe there is a gun problem in the United States, yes. 
Definitely. Just recently a police officer fatally shot a pregnant Black woman 
in the parking lot of a grocery store in Ohio after she refused to exit her 
car. And Ohio is not even a red state, right? It is also well known that the US 
has substantially more mass shootings than other countries. This is one reason 
why I do not want to travel to the USA at the moment - South Africa also does 
not feel safe to me after various reports in the last months about missing 
tourists.The other is the lack of good food. In Europe and Asia there is such a 
variety of good restaurants and healthy food. In Germany and Great Britain not 
so much, except in the larger cities, but in the Mediterranean countries like 
Spain, Italy, Greece and Israel the food is awesome. In South Korea, Thailand, 
Vietnam and Japan as well. -J.
 Original message From: Steve Smith  Date: 
9/3/23  8:59 PM  (GMT+01:00) To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Science 
Fiction Books 
Jochen -
I thought of you more than few times on my long walkabout through
  Red/Purple-state 'murrica...  mostly your concerns a year or two
  ago about traveling to the US "because gun violence".   I was in
  the heart of "gun country" through this trip and saw a few
  artifacts of that which would naturally be *very* disturbing
  (methinks) to someone not already innured to it... but not nearly
  as many as you might expect.  On the other hand I just saw a news
  item that Canada and many other first-world countries have in
  place "travel warnings" for not the US proper, but many of the
  more egregious "red states".   I believe you may have already made
  your 'murrican sojourn so the point may be moot... but I couldn't
  help thinking "how would Jochen see this?" as I stumbled through a
  landscape of bison, hay bales, corn fields, motorcycles, strip
  malls, and gun shows.


  
  I have read "Highway of Eternity" from Clifford D.
Simak this weekend, one of the books from the golden age of
science fiction which is comparable to "The city and the Stars"
from Arthur C. Clarke and "The end of eternity" from Isaac
Asimov. Both belong to my favorite books. Modern authors don't
write like this anymore. Their books are often gloomy and
depressive, and do not span millions of years. What is your
favorite science fiction book? Will the AI breakthrough in large
language models lead to more optimistic science fiction books
again? 
  

Back on topic:  I grew up on a lot of "Golden Age" works/authors
  which includes Simak/Clarke/Asimov of course.   I would claim that
  this time was naturally one of "Utopianism" that came with the
  rapid development of industry/technology/science.  I think the
  Dystopianism ramped up with PostModernism and Cyberpunk.   I'm a
  big fan of Cyberpunk (esp..
  Gibson/Sterling/Stephenson/Cadigan/etc.) and *some*
  post-Apocalyptic works... now almost exclusively "CliFi" (Climate
  Fiction), but I get your yearning for "the good ole days".   I'd
  say Elon Musk grew up on "too much Utopian SF" as well and (unlike
  me) hasn't outgrown it?   

My *favorite* golden-age author is Jack
Williamson who I've mentioned here before and had the
  distinction of being somewhat elder when he published his first
  work at age 20 (1928) in Hugo Gernsback's first-of-kind Amazing
  Stories (1926).   I feel like he hit his stride after WWII where
  he had been a (civilian, not military due to age) Weatherman in
  the Pacific and reacted to a dawning self-awareness of the flip
  side of techno-Utopianism (exemplified by Hiroshima/Nagasaki)...  
  His (re)entry into publication after a long hiatus (during/after
  WWII) was With
Folded Hands, a reflective dystopian view of
  techno-utopianism as well as work presaging Asimov's Robot series
  as well as a plethora of concepts like
  Borg/Cylon/Replicant/Terminators/Cybermen/Sentinels, etc...   and
  of course all of this was preceded by Lem's Trurl and
Klapaucius (wizard-robot constructors) and the Hebrew Golem (and
Frankenstein's Monster and... and and.)  He wrote over 50 novels
ultimately in his 98 year long life as well as myriad short
stories, novellas and a 3 year run of a comic strip (early
50s)... He also penned a reflective autobiography late in life
(70s) but with nearly 20 years worth of career following that! 
He taught writing at Eastern NM University well into his 90s as
well.
  
For the most
part I'm thankful to be beyond the flat

Re: [FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Steve Smith]

Jochen -

I thought of you more than few times on my long walkabout through 
Red/Purple-state 'murrica...  mostly your concerns a year or two ago 
about traveling to the US "because gun violence".   I was in the heart 
of "gun country" through this trip and saw a few artifacts of that which 
would naturally be *very* disturbing (methinks) to someone not already 
innured to it... but not nearly as many as you might expect.  On the 
other hand I just saw a news item that Canada and many other first-world 
countries have in place "travel warnings" for not the US proper, but 
many of the more egregious "red states".   I believe you may have 
already made your 'murrican sojourn so the point may be moot... but I 
couldn't help thinking "how would Jochen see this?" as I stumbled 
through a landscape of bison, hay bales, corn fields, motorcycles, strip 
malls, and gun shows.


I have read "Highway of Eternity" from Clifford D. Simak this weekend, 
one of the books from the golden age of science fiction which is 
comparable to "The city and the Stars" from Arthur C. Clarke and "The 
end of eternity" from Isaac Asimov. Both belong to my favorite books. 
Modern authors don't write like this anymore. Their books are often 
gloomy and depressive, and do not span millions of years. What is your 
favorite science fiction book? Will the AI breakthrough in large 
language models lead to more optimistic science fiction books again?


Back on topic:  I grew up on a lot of "Golden Age" works/authors which 
includes Simak/Clarke/Asimov of course.   I would claim that this time 
was naturally one of "Utopianism" that came with the rapid development 
of industry/technology/science.  I think the Dystopianism ramped up with 
PostModernism and Cyberpunk.   I'm a big fan of Cyberpunk (esp.. 
Gibson/Sterling/Stephenson/Cadigan/etc.) and *some* post-Apocalyptic 
works... now almost exclusively "CliFi" (Climate Fiction), but I get 
your yearning for "the good ole days".   I'd say Elon Musk grew up on 
"too much Utopian SF" as well and (unlike me) hasn't outgrown it?


My *favorite* golden-age author is Jack Williamson 
 who I've mentioned here 
before and had the distinction of being somewhat elder when he published 
his first work at age 20 (1928) in Hugo Gernsback's first-of-kind 
Amazing Stories (1926).   I feel like he hit his stride after WWII where 
he had been a (civilian, not military due to age) Weatherman in the 
Pacific and reacted to a dawning self-awareness of the flip side of 
techno-Utopianism (exemplified by Hiroshima/Nagasaki)... His (re)entry 
into publication after a long hiatus (during/after WWII) was With Folded 
Hands , a reflective 
dystopian view of techno-utopianism as well as work presaging Asimov's 
Robot series as well as a plethora of concepts like 
Borg/Cylon/Replicant/Terminators/Cybermen/Sentinels, etc...   and of 
course all of this was preceded by Lem's Trurl and Klapaucius 
(wizard-robot constructors) and the Hebrew Golem (and Frankenstein's 
Monster and... and and.)  He wrote over 50 novels ultimately in his 98 
year long life as well as myriad short stories, novellas and a 3 year 
run of a comic strip (early 50s)... He also penned a reflective 
autobiography late in life (70s) but with nearly 20 years worth of 
career following that! He taught writing at Eastern NM University well 
into his 90s as well.


For the most part I'm thankful to be beyond the flat-character 
cardboard-cutout, misogynistic, stoicly independent/capable (white-male) 
hero-worship classic SF tropes but I hear your interest in more positive 
grand narratives that the Golden Age also carried.  For the seminal 
Epoch-spanning humanity I offer Olaf Stapledon's "Last and First Men" 
(1930) and "Starmaker" (1933).  The former spans 2 billion years and 18 
human species...


Robert Heinlein is the avowed Master of Human Chauvanistic 
technoUtopian/Libertarian fantasies which even satisfies some of us 
reformed/anti-Libertarians sometimes.   Many of his more minor novels 
are a fun romp in near-future techno-utopianism (e.g. Moon is a Harsh 
Mistress) as well as epoch and dimensional spanning works such as /Time 
Enough for Love /and /Job/ (respectively). /Stranger in a Strange Land/ 
stood up well next to Herbert's /Dune/ in the 60s to satisfy Hippies and 
non-Hippies alike.


Larry Niven's /Ringworld /series are pretty 
far-flung/futuristic/optimistic epochal.  He does post-Apocalyptic well 
too (e.g. /FootFall/, /Mote in God's Eye/)


I did enjoy Simak's work "back in the day" and his 1968 "So Bright the 
Vision" gestured toward what ChatGPT is today.


A.E. Van Vogt offers some great classics as well... /The Worlds of Null 
A /and /Weapons Shops of Isher/ stand out.


Poul Anderson simultaneously created/celebrated and lampooned the 
canonical pulp hero with his Nicholas van Rijn characters in a series of 
works and his /PsychoTechnic 

[FRIAM] Science Fiction Books

[Jochen Fromm]

I have read "Highway of Eternity" from Clifford D. Simak this weekend, one of 
the books from the golden age of science fiction which is comparable to "The 
city and the Stars" from Arthur C. Clarke and "The end of eternity" from Isaac 
Asimov. Both belong to my favorite books. Modern authors don't write like this 
anymore. Their books are often gloomy and depressive, and do not span millions 
of years. What is your favorite science fiction book? Will the AI breakthrough 
in large language models lead to more optimistic science fiction books again? 
-J.-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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