[LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo
In contrast to some of the early works, this is not a work for which I would use a lute. Personally, I find that for this work I want to play in meantone. And meantone means big frets (major semitones) and small frets (minor semitones). And these tastini for pure meantone really work best on a middling to large size theorbo. For this piece, I use a single reentrant instrument in G because it works best for all the keys, but you could certainly go with an A instrument as well. A double reentrant instrument will have octave issues. It just sounds better in meantone, IMHO. OMD. W. dt __ From: Herbert Ward wa...@physics.utexas.edu To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2014 6:32 PM Subject: [LUTE] Ren lute as sub for theorbo I saw a production of Monteverdi's Return of Ulysses last night. In the orchestra was a theorbo. At least I think it was a theorbo. It has a prominent place in the production, serving as the sole accompaniment for approximately six of the songs. Would it be feasible to replace the theorbo with a Renaissance lute in this opera? To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo
I think that depends on what sort of context in which you intended to replace the theorbo with a Renaissance lute. If you’re thinking of providing accompaniment for a singer in a domestic context, the lute can play the notes, just not the low octaves at cadences. Any more than that, the Renaissance lute doesn’t provide enough volume or support. Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com On 3 Nov 2014, at 10:32 am, Herbert Ward wa...@physics.utexas.edu wrote: I saw a production of Monteverdi's Return of Ulysses last night. In the orchestra was a theorbo. At least I think it was a theorbo. It has a prominent place in the production, serving as the sole accompaniment for approximately six of the songs. Would it be feasible to replace the theorbo with a Renaissance lute in this opera? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo
Ren lute is absolutely fine. When I played in the Collegium at Eastman, Paul (O'Dette) occasionally sat in with us continuo players. He always used his 8 course because he said it was easier to conduct without the long neck. In addition to this, the instrument handles modulations easily and can tackle a wider range of figures with greater potential for proper voice leading. (Although period players weren't overly concerned with the latter.) True, on the whole overall volume will be minimized, but what it lacks in body can be made up for in punch. As always, playing this lute thumb out, close to the bridge, is a good idea that is supported in period iconography. There is plenty of historical precedent for using the Renaissance lute in this manner. Agazzari called the lute the King of the Instruments because in an ensemble it could play both lead lines and chordal accompaniment. In fact, he goes so far as to say that all other instruments should model their continuo playing after what lutenists did. Iconography shows a huge variety of lutes being played in all manner of ensembles. The concept that the Renaissance lute should be confined to pre-1600 and that the large Roman theorbo is the most correct instrument to use in baroque plucked continuo is a thoroughly modern one that didn't exist during the actual period. Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad At Nov 2, 2014, 21:35:42, Herbert Ward'[2]wa...@physics.utexas.edu' wrote: I saw a production of Monteverdi's Return of Ulysses last night. In the orchestra was a theorbo. At least I think it was a theorbo. It has a prominent place in the production, serving as the sole accompaniment for approximately six of the songs. Would it be feasible to replace the theorbo with a Renaissance lute in this opera? To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS 2. mailto:wa...@physics.utexas.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo
On 2014-11-03, 8:18 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Ren lute is absolutely fine. When I played in the Collegium at Eastman, Paul (O'Dette) occasionally sat in with us continuo players. He always used his 8 course I played continuo on my 7-course renaissance lute for many years in a baroque ensemble class at the Royal Conservatory of Music in Toronto. Although I own an archlute, the 7c was much more portable, easier to play, and sounded just fine. Some chords were awkward because of the tuning, but otherwise it worked well, and was quite audible in our ensemble of 5 or so. Heck, I even played continuo in a Bach harpsichord concerto! Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo
If you believe the lute 'works well' and is 'quite audible' for continuo in ensemble, such as that required for a Bach harpsichord concerto, why do you think the theorbo was ever invented? __ From: Geoff Gaherty ge...@gaherty.ca To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, 3 November 2014, 13:42 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo On 2014-11-03, 8:18 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Ren lute is absolutely fine. When I played in the Collegium at Eastman, Paul (O'Dette) occasionally sat in with us continuo players. He always used his 8 course I played continuo on my 7-course renaissance lute for many years in a baroque ensemble class at the Royal Conservatory of Music in Toronto. Although I own an archlute, the 7c was much more portable, easier to play, and sounded just fine. Some chords were awkward because of the tuning, but otherwise it worked well, and was quite audible in our ensemble of 5 or so. Heck, I even played continuo in a Bach harpsichord concerto! Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada [1]http://www.gaherty.ca [2]http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.gaherty.ca/ 2. http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo
On 2014-11-03, 10:47 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: If you believe the lute 'works well' and is 'quite audible' for continuo in ensemble, such as that required for a Bach harpsichord concerto, why do you think the theorbo was ever invented? Oh, certainly, an archlute or theorbo is better, but not all of us can afford all the instruments that the music calls for, so we do our best with what we have. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo
Martyn, On Mon, 11/3/14, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: If you believe the lute 'works well' and is 'quite audible' for continuo in ensemble, such as that required for a Bach harpsichord concerto, why do you think the theorbo was ever invented? I've often wondered how the theorbo ever became a thing myself. What an improbably solution it offers for musical issues! And what an awkward, ungainly thing it is to master and use idiomatically! Strange fingerboard tuning... Limited melodic range... inability to double most vocal lines for support, especially when accompanying shaky singers... harmonic register placed in an undistinguished mid-range that is easily covered by others in even small groups... Campanellas are neat, but they take a lot of additional dedicated practice time to master and are virtually useless in ensemble playing other than in the most exposed passages. The basses, of course, sound great! They can be used to incredible effect - IF the bass line is diatonic for the tuning you happen to have during that section of the piece... and fairly slow moving... sans lots of leaps... without requiring a surplus of articulation... or too many ascending scalar passages that will ring... and you've also spent tons of time practicing to securely find your way through the forest of strings. (Know that the director will invariably want the theorbo to be the sole accompaniment instrument for the prima donna's passionate chromatic lament in B-flat minor at the opera's heart-rending denouement. He will announce this only as you're tuning up immediately before the opening show.) Volume is an asset. However, aside from the beauty of the open basses, the overall sound doesn't project especially well and so is more evident to the player than the listeners. It does look cool, however. I speak as someone who has played a lot of theorbo. My very first album was dedicated to solo theorbo music. I still love the instrument and its repertoire. However, considering all the time I've had to put into becoming competent and considering the challenges of the medium versus the acceptability of then-current alternatives (i.e. Renaissance lute), I've often pondered why the ancients ever bothered to embrace this cranky beast as enthusiastically as they did. My guess is it caught on because it looked cool back then, too. ;-) Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Mon, 11/3/14, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo To: Geoff Gaherty ge...@gaherty.ca, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, November 3, 2014, 10:47 AM If you believe the lute 'works well' and is 'quite audible' for continuo in ensemble, such as that required for a Bach harpsichord concerto, why do you think the theorbo was ever invented? __ From: Geoff Gaherty ge...@gaherty.ca To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, 3 November 2014, 13:42 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo On 2014-11-03, 8:18 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Ren lute is absolutely fine. When I played in the Collegium at Eastman, Paul (O'Dette) occasionally sat in with us continuo players. He always used his 8 course I played continuo on my 7-course renaissance lute for many years in a baroque ensemble class at the Royal Conservatory of Music in Toronto. Although I own an archlute, the 7c was much more portable, easier to play, and sounded just fine. Some chords were awkward because of the tuning, but otherwise it worked well, and was quite audible in our ensemble of 5 or so. Heck, I even played continuo in a Bach harpsichord concerto! Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada [1]http://www.gaherty.ca [2]http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.gaherty.ca/ 2. http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo
On Nov 3, 2014, at 7:47 AM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: why do you think the theorbo was ever invented? Well, one clue is that the first theorbo design was commissioned in 1595 by the Marketing Committee of the Pan-Italian Chiropractors Association. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo
I suggest its origins were for the solo singer to accompany himself (Peri, Caccini, others in Italy ca. 1600). Salamone Rossi calls for it in instrumental dances very early, and it makes sense with one on a part strings - the chords and the basses plucked really stand out. From there to the trio sonata and competent continuo players being included along with lutenists and keyboardists in early productions, and a sort of tradition developed despite the many drawbacks you list, Chris. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Wilke Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 11:41 AM To: Geoff Gaherty; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn Hodgson Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo Martyn, On Mon, 11/3/14, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: If you believe the lute 'works well' and is 'quite audible' for continuo in ensemble, such as that required for a Bach harpsichord concerto, why do you think the theorbo was ever invented? I've often wondered how the theorbo ever became a thing myself. What an improbably solution it offers for musical issues! And what an awkward, ungainly thing it is to master and use idiomatically! Strange fingerboard tuning... Limited melodic range... inability to double most vocal lines for support, especially when accompanying shaky singers... harmonic register placed in an undistinguished mid-range that is easily covered by others in even small groups... Campanellas are neat, but they take a lot of additional dedicated practice time to master and are virtually useless in ensemble playing other than in the most exposed passages. The basses, of course, sound great! They can be used to incredible effect - IF the bass line is diatonic for the tuning you happen to have during that section of the piece... and fairly slow moving... sans lots of leaps... without requiring a surplus of articulation... or too many ascending scalar passages that will ring... and you've also spent tons of time practicing to securely find your way through the forest of strings. (Know that the director will invariably want the theorbo to be the sole accompaniment instrument for the prima donna's passionate chromatic lament in B-flat minor at the opera's heart-rending denouement. He will announce this only as you're tuning up immediately before the opening show.) Volume is an asset. However, aside from the beauty of the open basses, the overall sound doesn't project especially well and so is more evident to the player than the listeners. It does look cool, however. I speak as someone who has played a lot of theorbo. My very first album was dedicated to solo theorbo music. I still love the instrument and its repertoire. However, considering all the time I've had to put into becoming competent and considering the challenges of the medium versus the acceptability of then-current alternatives (i.e. Renaissance lute), I've often pondered why the ancients ever bothered to embrace this cranky beast as enthusiastically as they did. My guess is it caught on because it looked cool back then, too. ;-) Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Mon, 11/3/14, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo To: Geoff Gaherty ge...@gaherty.ca, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, November 3, 2014, 10:47 AM If you believe the lute 'works well' and is 'quite audible' for continuo in ensemble, such as that required for a Bach harpsichord concerto, why do you think the theorbo was ever invented? __ From: Geoff Gaherty ge...@gaherty.ca To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, 3 November 2014, 13:42 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo On 2014-11-03, 8:18 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Ren lute is absolutely fine. When I played in the Collegium at Eastman, Paul (O'Dette) occasionally sat in with us continuo players. He always used his 8 course I played continuo on my 7-course renaissance lute for many years in a baroque ensemble class at the Royal Conservatory of Music in Toronto. Although I own an archlute, the 7c was much more portable, easier to play, and sounded just fine. Some chords were awkward because of the tuning, but otherwise it worked well, and was quite audible in our ensemble of 5 or so. Heck, I even played continuo in a Bach harpsichord concerto! Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada [1]http://www.gaherty.ca [2]http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http
[LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo
To find out why the theorbo was invented, you'd have to ask the inventor: Rube Goldberg JM On 11/3/14 11:56 AM, Roland Hayes rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org wrote: I suggest its origins were for the solo singer to accompany himself (Peri, Caccini, others in Italy ca. 1600). Salamone Rossi calls for it in instrumental dances very early, and it makes sense with one on a part strings - the chords and the basses plucked really stand out. From there to the trio sonata and competent continuo players being included along with lutenists and keyboardists in early productions, and a sort of tradition developed despite the many drawbacks you list, Chris. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Wilke Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 11:41 AM To: Geoff Gaherty; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn Hodgson Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo Martyn, On Mon, 11/3/14, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: If you believe the lute 'works well' and is 'quite audible' for continuo in ensemble, such as that required for a Bach harpsichord concerto, why do you think the theorbo was ever invented? I've often wondered how the theorbo ever became a thing myself. What an improbably solution it offers for musical issues! And what an awkward, ungainly thing it is to master and use idiomatically! Strange fingerboard tuning... Limited melodic range... inability to double most vocal lines for support, especially when accompanying shaky singers... harmonic register placed in an undistinguished mid-range that is easily covered by others in even small groups... Campanellas are neat, but they take a lot of additional dedicated practice time to master and are virtually useless in ensemble playing other than in the most exposed passages. The basses, of course, sound great! They can be used to incredible effect - IF the bass line is diatonic for the tuning you happen to have during that section of the piece... and fairly slow moving... sans lots of leaps... without requiring a surplus of articulation... or too many ascending scalar passages that will ring... and you've also spent tons of time practicing to securely find your way through the forest of strings. (Know that the director will invariably want the theorbo to be the sole accompaniment instrument for the prima donna's passionate chromatic lament in B-flat minor at the opera's heart-rending denouement. He will announce this only as you're tuning up immediately before the opening show.) Volume is an asset. However, aside from the beauty of the open basses, the overall sound doesn't project especially well and so is more evident to the player than the listeners. It does look cool, however. I speak as someone who has played a lot of theorbo. My very first album was dedicated to solo theorbo music. I still love the instrument and its repertoire. However, considering all the time I've had to put into becoming competent and considering the challenges of the medium versus the acceptability of then-current alternatives (i.e. Renaissance lute), I've often pondered why the ancients ever bothered to embrace this cranky beast as enthusiastically as they did. My guess is it caught on because it looked cool back then, too. ;-) Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Mon, 11/3/14, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo To: Geoff Gaherty ge...@gaherty.ca, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, November 3, 2014, 10:47 AM If you believe the lute 'works well' and is 'quite audible' for continuo in ensemble, such as that required for a Bach harpsichord concerto, why do you think the theorbo was ever invented? __ From: Geoff Gaherty ge...@gaherty.ca To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, 3 November 2014, 13:42 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo On 2014-11-03, 8:18 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Ren lute is absolutely fine. When I played in the Collegium at Eastman, Paul (O'Dette) occasionally sat in with us continuo players. He always used his 8 course I played continuo on my 7-course renaissance lute for many years in a baroque ensemble class at the Royal Conservatory of Music in Toronto. Although I own an archlute, the 7c was much more portable, easier to play, and sounded just fine. Some chords were awkward because of the tuning, but otherwise it worked well, and was quite audible in our ensemble of 5 or so. Heck, I even played continuo in a Bach harpsichord concerto! Geoff
[LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo
I think the real reason for the invention of the theorbo was to provide easy fodder for an unending stream of juvenile phallic jokes. My favorite was after a rehearsal for Monteverdi's Vespers. One of the singers, a very attractive young lady, came up to me and said, Oo, that thing is ENORMOUS! I've been watching you and wondering, is it true that a man who plays such a BIG, LONG instrument will also have a HUGE... [Wait for it. Sexy, seductive eyes are being made at me.] ...car trunk? I don't recall ever having been so simultaneously amused and disappointed. Actually, that's not true. I have the identical feeling when I see my paycheck after most gigs. Pluck on, Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad At Nov 3, 2014, 12:14:16, Mayes, Joseph'[2]ma...@rowan.edu' wrote: To find out why the theorbo was invented, you'd have to ask the inventor: Rube Goldberg JM On 11/3/14 11:56 AM, Roland Hayes [3]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org wrote: I suggest its origins were for the solo singer to accompany himself (Peri, Caccini, others in Italy ca. 1600). Salamone Rossi calls for it in instrumental dances very early, and it makes sense with one on a part strings - the chords and the basses plucked really stand out. From there to the trio sonata and competent continuo players being included along with lutenists and keyboardists in early productions, and a sort of tradition developed despite the many drawbacks you list, Chris. -Original Message- From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Wilke Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 11:41 AM To: Geoff Gaherty; [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn Hodgson Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo Martyn, On Mon, 11/3/14, Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: If you believe the lute 'works well' and is 'quite audible' for continuo in ensemble, such as that required for a Bach harpsichord concerto, why do you think the theorbo was ever invented? I've often wondered how the theorbo ever became a thing myself. What an improbably solution it offers for musical issues! And what an awkward, ungainly thing it is to master and use idiomatically! Strange fingerboard tuning... Limited melodic range... inability to double most vocal lines for support, especially when accompanying shaky singers... harmonic register placed in an undistinguished mid-range that is easily covered by others in even small groups... Campanellas are neat, but they take a lot of additional dedicated practice time to master and are virtually useless in ensemble playing other than in the most exposed passages. The basses, of course, sound great! They can be used to incredible effect - IF the bass line is diatonic for the tuning you happen to have during that section of the piece... and fairly slow moving... sans lots of leaps... without requiring a surplus of articulation... or too many ascending scalar passages that will ring... and you've also spent tons of time practicing to securely find your way through the forest of strings. (Know that the director will invariably want the theorbo to be the sole accompaniment instrument for the prima donna's passionate chromatic lament in B-flat minor at the opera's heart-rending denouement. He will announce this only as you're tuning up immediately before the opening show.) Volume is an asset. However, aside from the beauty of the open basses, the overall sound doesn't project especially well and so is more evident to the player than the listeners. It does look cool, however. I speak as someone who has played a lot of theorbo. My very first album was dedicated to solo theorbo music. I still love the instrument and its repertoire. However, considering all the time I've had to put into becoming competent and considering the challenges of the medium versus the acceptability of then-current alternatives (i.e. Renaissance lute), I've often pondered why the ancients ever bothered to embrace this cranky beast as enthusiastically as they did. My guess is it caught on because it looked cool back then, too. ;-) Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer [8]www.christopherwilke.com On Mon, 11/3/14, Martyn Hodgson [9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo To: Geoff Gaherty [10]ge...@gaherty.ca, [11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, November 3, 2014, 10:47 AM If you believe the lute 'works well' and is 'quite audible
[LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo
Pluck on, Chris We're all just pluckers in the grand scheme ... Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music www.heartistry.com 715-682-9362 Sent from my iPhone On Nov 3, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: I think the real reason for the invention of the theorbo was to provide easy fodder for an unending stream of juvenile phallic jokes. My favorite was after a rehearsal for Monteverdi's Vespers. One of the singers, a very attractive young lady, came up to me and said, Oo, that thing is ENORMOUS! I've been watching you and wondering, is it true that a man who plays such a BIG, LONG instrument will also have a HUGE... [Wait for it. Sexy, seductive eyes are being made at me.] ...car trunk? I don't recall ever having been so simultaneously amused and disappointed. Actually, that's not true. I have the identical feeling when I see my paycheck after most gigs. Pluck on, [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad At Nov 3, 2014, 12:14:16, Mayes, Joseph'[2]ma...@rowan.edu' wrote: To find out why the theorbo was invented, you'd have to ask the inventor: Rube Goldberg JM On 11/3/14 11:56 AM, Roland Hayes [3]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org wrote: I suggest its origins were for the solo singer to accompany himself (Peri, Caccini, others in Italy ca. 1600). Salamone Rossi calls for it in instrumental dances very early, and it makes sense with one on a part strings - the chords and the basses plucked really stand out. From there to the trio sonata and competent continuo players being included along with lutenists and keyboardists in early productions, and a sort of tradition developed despite the many drawbacks you list, Chris. -Original Message- From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Wilke Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 11:41 AM To: Geoff Gaherty; [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn Hodgson Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo Martyn, On Mon, 11/3/14, Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: If you believe the lute 'works well' and is 'quite audible' for continuo in ensemble, such as that required for a Bach harpsichord concerto, why do you think the theorbo was ever invented? I've often wondered how the theorbo ever became a thing myself. What an improbably solution it offers for musical issues! And what an awkward, ungainly thing it is to master and use idiomatically! Strange fingerboard tuning... Limited melodic range... inability to double most vocal lines for support, especially when accompanying shaky singers... harmonic register placed in an undistinguished mid-range that is easily covered by others in even small groups... Campanellas are neat, but they take a lot of additional dedicated practice time to master and are virtually useless in ensemble playing other than in the most exposed passages. The basses, of course, sound great! They can be used to incredible effect - IF the bass line is diatonic for the tuning you happen to have during that section of the piece... and fairly slow moving... sans lots of leaps... without requiring a surplus of articulation... or too many ascending scalar passages that will ring... and you've also spent tons of time practicing to securely find your way through the forest of strings. (Know that the director will invariably want the theorbo to be the sole accompaniment instrument for the prima donna's passionate chromatic lament in B-flat minor at the opera's heart-rending denouement. He will announce this only as you're tuning up immediately before the opening show.) Volume is an asset. However, aside from the beauty of the open basses, the overall sound doesn't project especially well and so is more evident to the player than the listeners. It does look cool, however. I speak as someone who has played a lot of theorbo. My very first album was dedicated to solo theorbo music. I still love the instrument and its repertoire. However, considering all the time I've had to put into becoming competent and considering the challenges of the medium versus the acceptability of then-current alternatives (i.e. Renaissance lute), I've often pondered why the ancients ever bothered to embrace this cranky beast as enthusiastically as they did. My guess is it caught on because it looked cool back then, too. ;-) Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer [8]www.christopherwilke.com On Mon, 11/3/14, Martyn Hodgson [9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo To: Geoff Gaherty [10]ge...@gaherty.ca, [11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, November 3, 2014, 10:47 AM If you believe the lute 'works
[LUTE] Re: Ren lute as sub for theorbo
On 11/3/2014 8:57 AM, howard posner wrote: On Nov 3, 2014, at 7:47 AM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: why do you think the theorbo was ever invented? Well, one clue is that the first theorbo design was commissioned in 1595 by the Marketing Committee of the Pan-Italian Chiropractors Association. Well I blame Pontius Pilates. (Recycling old wood, and doing good!) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
