[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Edward C. Yong]

Hi Michael,

Yes please, if you can find it. 

Thank you!

Best,

Edward

> On 15 Apr 2019, at 10:25 PM, Michael Vollbrecht  wrote:
> 
> Hello Edward,
> I made a quick tab of that concerto for Ren. Lute; if you still
> need it, I can send it to you -once I've found it...
> 
> All the Best
> 
> Michael Vollbrecht
> 
> 
> On Thu, 2019-04-11 at 16:39 +0800, Edward C. Yong wrote:
>> Dear Lute Collective,
>> 
>> Would anyone have the Vivadi Lute Concerto in D major RV 93 in tablature for 
>> G tuning?
>> 
>> Thank you in advance from Singapore!
>> 
>> Edward C. Yong
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη.
>> Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt.
>> 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。
>> This e-mail was sent from my iPhone.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto

[Michael Vollbrecht]

Hello Edward,
I made a quick tab of that concerto for Ren. Lute; if you still
need it, I can send it to you -once I've found it...

All the Best

Michael Vollbrecht


On Thu, 2019-04-11 at 16:39 +0800, Edward C. Yong wrote:
> Dear Lute Collective,
> 
> Would anyone have the Vivadi Lute Concerto in D major RV 93 in tablature for 
> G tuning?
> 
> Thank you in advance from Singapore!
> 
> Edward C. Yong
> 
> 
> 
> τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη.
> Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt.
> 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。
> This e-mail was sent from my iPhone.
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[howard posner]

   I could not have said it better.

 On Oct 12, 2016, at 3:58 AM, Ralf Mattes  wrote:

 Doesn't it seem a little ironic that those who champion a technique
 that's 400 years old are calling Segovia's technique "old
 fashioned".
 Gary

 No. Unless you miss the subtle difference between "old" and "old
 fashioned".


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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[howard posner]

If thumb out bothers you, you’ve been asleep the last 30 years.

> On Oct 12, 2016, at 9:26 AM, John Mardinly  wrote:
> 
>  Thumb out, nails, nylon strings, metal wound basses, metal frets, bone
>   saddle in bridge (Rubio lute), big sound, very hip.




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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[John Mardinly]

   Thumb out, nails, nylon strings, metal wound basses, metal frets, bone
   saddle in bridge (Rubio lute), big sound, very hip.

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   Retired Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer
   EMail: [1]john.mardi...@asu.edu
   Cell: [2]408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs)
   But don't call the lab….I won't be there!

   On Oct 12, 2016, at 3:03 AM, Diego Cantalupi <[3]tio...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

   Some very HIP thumb out Vivaldi.
   [4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com
   _watch-3Fv-3DqyY5pB2a0cU=CwICbA=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4
   A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=Uvwpn9S28N1Ou3
   _jJVK7LoMzllyUfc7hp8CrLZjA8rw=Z7T0l9y-FbAll94HDsczkd6xvDHPOJ7EZcPJoWG
   a5Fc=
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [5]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth
   .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=CwICbA=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Eji
   z41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=Uvw
   pn9S28N1Ou3_jJVK7LoMzllyUfc7hp8CrLZjA8rw=0muR66fCjmmqBcFCkn33nFVP3BN5
   _XesfPp8ZrzDbwU=

References

   1. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu
   2. tel:408-921-3253
   3. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   4. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DqyY5pB2a0cU=CwICbA=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=Uvwpn9S28N1Ou3_jJVK7LoMzllyUfc7hp8CrLZjA8rw=Z7T0l9y-FbAll94HDsczkd6xvDHPOJ7EZcPJoWGa5Fc=
   5. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=CwICbA=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=Uvwpn9S28N1Ou3_jJVK7LoMzllyUfc7hp8CrLZjA8rw=0muR66fCjmmqBcFCkn33nFVP3BN5_XesfPp8ZrzDbwU=

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Robert Gallagher]

I would call that a “thumbs-up” performance.  Wonderful.  Larger orchestra 
than I would have liked but you can always count on Bream to put musicality 
first.  All best, Robert

Robert Gallagher
Tour Béryl BAL 68-3
40, avenue d’Italie
75013 Paris FRANCE

+33 (0) 983 79 70 48

> On 12 Oct 2016, at 12:03, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
> 
> Some very HIP thumb out Vivaldi.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyY5pB2a0cU
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Diego Cantalupi]

Some very HIP thumb out Vivaldi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyY5pB2a0cU



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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[gary]

Doesn't it seem a little ironic that those who champion a technique
that's 400 years old are calling Segovia's technique "old fashioned".

Gary

On 2016-10-11 05:04, Ron Andrico wrote:

> As a musician who did NOT come to the lute via classical guitar, I am
> alternately amused and discouraged that the argument of guitar
> technique versus an approved "authentic" lute technique is still an
> issue.  This argument is an unfortunate artifact of the late 20th lute
> fad, and those who are still banging away on this issue are overlooking
> information in the historical sources.
>
> For the record, I do not play single-strung lutes, and I understand
> from reading historical source material that single-strung theorbos
> were just as rare as single-strung archlutes.  But they are an accepted
> modern compromise.  Likewise, I do not use nails, but Alessandro
> Piccinini and other historical figures did.
>
> The truth is that there were and are many ways to approach historical
> music.  Until we learn to live without all modern conveniences -
> electronic tuners, photocopied or digital scores, electric lights,
> indoor plumbing - the idea that we can today decide on narrow
> parameters that describe historical performance is a rather ludicrous
> exercise in fantasy.
>
> I have increasingly moved toward an attempt to perform only in
> appropriate-sized spaces and I tend to put an enormous amount of effort
> in producing historically integrated programs using the proper
> instruments.  Taste is a subjective and individual phenomenon but some
> of us have traversed beyond the old guitar versus lute argument and
> have come to listen with an open mind and judge a performance based
> upon its musicality.
> RA
> __
>
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
> of Jarosław Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 8:47 AM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
>
> Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca's
> performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask
> questions like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is
> little evidence for this type of instrument, why someone uses
> fingernails if the evidence speaks against using them, and why someone
> uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who'll find any evidence
> for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then one may
> assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more
> guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical education
> as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard by an
> audience especially when playing in a group .
> Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that
> there are 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has
> no experience in early music may feel a little bit confused.
> Best
> JL
>> On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>>> Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is 
>>> another
> version of RV93 played by Luca here
> [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog
> <[2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog>
> [3][th?id=OVP.Va5d2ebab5ddfdd8da4e4d0cbe68b82dapid=Api]
> [4]Vivaldi RV93 Luca Pianca
> www.youtube.com [1]
> Vivaldi RV93 played by Il Giardino Armonico with a Swiss born solo
> lutenist Luca Pianca.
> [5][th?id=OVP.Va5d2ebab5ddfdd8da4e4d0cbe68b82dapid=Api]
> [6]Vivaldi RV93 Luca Pianca
> www.youtube.com [1]
> Vivaldi RV93 played by Il Giardino Armonico with a Swiss born solo
> lutenist Luca Pianca.
>>> The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for
> this type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly
> noticed. Luca uses fingernails, so this is another factor that
> influences the overall sound (not only mics).
>>> JL
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> on a good authority of RT.
>>>> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
>>>> RT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, JarosÃ...âEURšaw Lipski wrote:
>>>>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
>>>>> JL
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute
> by Luc Bret

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

> On 12 Oct 2016, at 01:00, Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yes, where will it end?  I'll end my commentary by clearing up a few points.  
> I don't believe I even mentioned the term historically-informed performance 
> in my discussion.  HIP is not necessarily a hard and fast objective measure 
> because whenever the term is mentioned, you must ask the question, 
> "...according to whom?"  
> 

Here is a quotation from your original post which triggered this discussion:

Hmm...Historically-informed must have taken on a different meaning
  while I wasn't paying attention.  I should think Luca Pianca and his
  Italian compatriots might have a bit more of a secure connection with
  Vivaldi's music than the American's you name.  O'Dette recorded this
  music with a silly little chirpy mandolino playing with a rather stiff
  sounding band.  McFarlane's interpretation is vibrant and lovely but
  what we hear in this video with Luca Pianca has everything to do with a
  microphone placement that allows the lute to be heard above the rest of
  the band, as is certainly the case in the other recordings mentioned.
  As far as I can tell, single stringing was sometimes used by the old
  ones but Luca Pianca's hand position is definitely
  historically-accurate for Vivaldi's era.  The under thumb approach
  ceased to exist with the advent of many additional basses, circa 1600,
  and those who use that hand position in baroque music today are
  not using an historically-informed approach.  So unless
  historically-informed now has something to do with microphone
  placement, I think the video example is compelling and musical.



> Speedy O'Dette's use of a mandolino is a serious stretch of imagination.  I 
> happen to know McFarlane has pickups installed in his lutes.  Diego C's 
> performance was very nice but he did use some unhistorical variation 
> techniques in his decorated repeats, plus added uncommonly long pauses at the 
> ends of some phrases, plus the unhistorical mega-band.  Luca's performance 
> incorporated transposition and a single-strung archlute but I can tell you 
> without hesitation that historical theorbos were NOT single-strung either. 

See Howard’s comment

> He also used a floating hand position with thumb out.  So does Nigel North.  
> He also used nails.  So did Piccinini, and so does Stephen Stubbs. 
> 

I can’t see anything wrong with a floating hand position. Finger marks on 
original old lutes show that it was used quite often. Nigel doesn’t use 
nails, and this is why his tone is so beautiful.


> I am sorry to say that the guitar-lute controversy lives on whether people 
> would like to admit it or no.


There is no guitar-lute controversy. There is only a style problem which some 
consciously ignore.


>   I don't happen to carry that baggage, but I do take care to inform myself. 

So do I and quite a lot of us

> Taste is indeed subjective but if the idea of HIP is popped out of its ugly 
> socket, it must be applied evenly to all involved in comparison.
> 

No problem, the only thing is that it’s not a very best idea to construct a 
theory on a precedent. And I say again, I don’t want to judge someone’s 
performance, my only concern is that people use HIP term with some care.

JL

> 
> 
> 
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of 
> Jarosław Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 7:28 PM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
>  
> My, my…were will it all end? ;)
> The discussion diverged from a simple question to a very complicated topic, 
> and I won’t go into details as this is not the best place for this kind of 
> discussion, and so many books were written about it, however I just would 
> like to point out some problems in this train of thought. Before doing this I 
> have to stress again that we are not talking about assessing someone’s 
> performance. There aren’t in fact 2 camps - inherently musical 
> interpretation versus historically accurate one. One may, or may not like 
> Luca’s performance. This is personal and irrelevant. This is much broader. 
> Firstly there is nothing amusing in talking about authenticity providing that 
> it is understood properly. Authentic does not mean identical to what old ones 
> did. On the other hand I can sense here a lute player-syndrome. When a 
> cellist begins training as a gamba player in a music school he/she is taught 
> how to bow and phrase in accordance with a present knowledge of a given style 
> (be it Rena!
 is!
>  sance or Baroque). Then, providing that education is of high quality a style 
> becomes somehow ones second nature (hopefully). Have you ever heard a well 
> educated gamba player that would us

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[howard posner]

> On Oct 11, 2016, at 4:00 PM, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
>   HIP is not
>   necessarily a hard and fast objective measure because whenever the term
>   is mentioned, you must ask the question, "...according to whom?"
> 
>   Speedy O'Dette's use of a mandolino is a serious stretch of
>   imagination.  

When O’Dette (whose first name is Paul, by the way) made the recording, much of 
the lute world believed that the lute part should sound at violin pitch, 
requiring a small instrument. It was the latest in HIP.  Paul actually 
concluded that the violin-pitch theory was wrong not long after the recording 
came out.

> Luca's performance incorporated transposition

well, no.

>   and a single-strung archlute but I can tell you without hesitation that
>   historical theorbos were NOT single-strung either.  

Someone should have told Praetorius.

And Joseph Langenwalder, who made the single-strung theorbo in the Vienna 
Kunsthistorisches Museum.

And Pietro Railich, who made the single-strung theorbos in the Brussels Musee 
Instrumental and the Rome Museo degli Strumenti Musicale.  He also made the 
double-strung theorbo in the Hessisches Landesmuseum.

And the 4 anonymous makers of the single-strung theorbos in the Musei e 
Gallerie di Milano, Stockholm Musikhistoriska Museet, Oberosterreichisches 
Landesmuseum and the Burg Seebenstein collection.

And Mattheus Buchenberg (Lisbon Museu da Musica, and Brussels Musee 
Instrumental), Matthias Alban and Magnus Steger (Uneo Gakuen Collection in 
Tokyo), and Wendelio Venere (Musee de la Musique, Paris) and a few others.

There are at least a dozen surviving single-strung theorbos.  Given the small 
size of the theorbo fossil record, that number indicates that single-strung 
theorbos were common, particularly since players could single-string 
instruments that had pegs for double stringing.




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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

My, my…were will it all end? ;)
The discussion diverged from a simple question to a very complicated topic, and 
I won’t go into details as this is not the best place for this kind of 
discussion, and so many books were written about it, however I just would like 
to point out some problems in this train of thought. Before doing this I have 
to stress again that we are not talking about assessing someone’s 
performance. There aren’t in fact 2 camps - inherently musical interpretation 
versus historically accurate one. One may, or may not like Luca’s 
performance. This is personal and irrelevant. This is much broader. Firstly 
there is nothing amusing in talking about authenticity providing that it is 
understood properly. Authentic does not mean identical to what old ones did. On 
the other hand I can sense here a lute player-syndrome. When a cellist begins 
training as a gamba player in a music school he/she is taught how to bow and 
phrase in accordance with a present knowledge of a given style (be it Renais!
 sance or Baroque). Then, providing that education is of high quality a style 
becomes somehow ones second nature (hopefully). Have you ever heard a well 
educated gamba player that would use a modern bow, modern or romantic phraising 
claiming he/she is HIP? I haven’t. And this is due to the fact that lute 
history is a little bit more complicated than gamba’s, and not everything is 
absolutely clear untill the present day, and musicologists can not agree on 
various important details. Some use this  as an excuse for unrestricted 
interpretations. And so far I wouldn’t object. The only problem I have is to 
accept the situation when someone plays  or interprets the way which is not in 
line with widespread knowledge and claims being HIP. “I” should stand for 
INFORMED not IGNORED. So if one doesn’t insist on using this magic label I 
feel happy and can listen solely to musical performance even if it’s a 
Vivaldi's amplified ukulele concerto accompanied by a symphonic orch!
 estra dressed in space outfits ;) If performance is convincing!
 …fantastic! But shouldn’t we use HIP label a little bit more carefully? It 
means “in accordance with a present knowledge”, nothing more, nothing less. 
You do not have to live without all modern conveniences in order to be HIP. You 
cannot enter the same river twice as they say, so don’t even try, but you can 
play in accordance to the available knowledge musically, and give phenomenal 
performances,  which I wish us all :)
JL



> On 11 Oct 2016, at 14:04, Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> As a musician who did NOT come to the lute via classical guitar, I am 
> alternately amused and discouraged that the argument of guitar technique 
> versus an approved "authentic" lute technique is still an issue.  This 
> argument is an unfortunate artifact of the late 20th lute fad, and those who 
> are still banging away on this issue are overlooking information in the 
> historical sources.
> 
> For the record, I do not play single-strung lutes, and I understand from 
> reading historical source material that single-strung theorbos were just as 
> rare as single-strung archlutes.  But they are an accepted modern compromise. 
>  Likewise, I do not use nails, but Alessandro Piccinini and other historical 
> figures did. 
> 
> The truth is that there were and are many ways to approach historical music.  
> Until we learn to live without all modern conveniences - electronic tuners, 
> photocopied or digital scores, electric lights, indoor plumbing - the idea 
> that we can today decide on narrow parameters that describe historical 
> performance is a rather ludicrous exercise in fantasy.  
> 
> I have increasingly moved toward an attempt to perform only in 
> appropriate-sized spaces and I tend to put an enormous amount of effort in 
> producing historically integrated programs using the proper instruments.  
> Taste is a subjective and individual phenomenon but some of us have traversed 
> beyond the old guitar versus lute argument and have come to listen with an 
> open mind and judge a performance based upon its musicality.
> 
> RA
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of 
> Jarosław Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 8:47 AM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
>  
> Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s 
> performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask questions 
> like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is little evidence 
> for this type of instrument, why someone uses fingernails if the evidence 
> speaks against using them, and why someone uses amplification (Noble prize 
> for someone who’ll find any evid

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Charles Mokotoff]

   I agree with John, I'd probably take that a little further as I am a
   big fan of Segovia, but lets leave it at that. Segovia was entirely
   capable of playing rhythmically precise when he was in an ensemble. I
   wish some of that carried over to his solo playing, but it was a
   different time.
   I am with the camp that prefers an inherently musical interpretation to
   a necessarily historically accurate one, if you can do both, so much
   the better!

   On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 12:23 PM, John Mardinly
   <[1]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:

Not true!
 "Segovian usually means unmusical, sloppy, irritating etc." for
 his
solo playing, but when he played with an ensemble, he was forced
 to be
disciplined and musical, like it or not. Just listen to his
 recordings
of Rodrigo's Fantasia para un Gentlehombre, Ponce's Concerto del
 Sur,
and Castelnuovo-Tedesco's Guitar Quintet.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
On Oct 11, 2016, at 2:46 AM, Roman Turovsky
 <[1][2]r.turov...@gmail.com>
wrote:
There is really nothing Segovian about it.
A Segovian usually means unmusical, sloppy, irritating etc.
RT
On 10/11/2016 5:09 AM, Diego Cantalupi wrote:
  The question is different:
  why one should play a baroque lute concerto on a lute-shaped
 guitar
  using an old fashon Segovian style?
  Il 11/10/2016 10:47, JarosÅaw Lipski ha scritto:
  On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky
 <[2][3]r.turov...@gmail.com>
  wrote:
  Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that
 are
  absent is this.
  Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some
 without.
  Stephen Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov
  without.
  RT
  Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said
 Luca's
  performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask
  questions like: why someone plays single strung archlute if
 there is
  little evidence for this type of instrument, why someone uses
  fingernails if the evidence speaks against using them, and why
  someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who'll find
 any
  evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used
 simultaneously,
  then
  one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much
 more
  guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical
  education
  as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard
 by an
  audience especially when playing in a group .
  Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out
 that
  there are 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone
 who
  has
  no experience in early music may feel a little bit confused.
  Best
  JL
  On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, JarosÅaw Lipski wrote:
  Name it as you like, for me itââ¬â¢s a Liuto forte. There is
 another
  version of RV93 played by Luca here
  [3][4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
 3A__www.youtube.
  com_watch-3Fv-3DJB101T-5FsVog=CwIFaQ=
 AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41
  FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3N
 w-61ygSK-LNEQ=3P9
  QDlxbOgfZVomqcWiWBRDUwIPP4rko1mGvuO7pas0=
 lQHWwhXbLLNcN7YENyhOJtBTy
  y2JO7IH-yDcK3vPB6U=
  <[4][5]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
 3A__www.youtube
  .com_watch-3Fv-3DJB101T-5FsVog=CwIFaQ=
 AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz4
  1FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3N
 w-61ygSK-LNEQ=3P
  9QDlxbOgfZVomqcWiWBRDUwIPP4rko1mGvuO7pas0=
 lQHWwhXbLLNcN7YENyhOJtBT
  yy2JO7IH-yDcK3vPB6U= >
  The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence
 for
  this type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard
 rightly
  noticed. Luca uses fingernails, so this is another factor that
  influences the overall sound (not only mics).
  JL
  On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky
 <[5][6]r.turov...@gmail.com>
  wrote:
  on a good authority of RT.
  Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
  RT
  On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, JarosÃâaw Lipski wrote:
  Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
  JL
  On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky
 <[6][7]r.turov...@gmail.com>
  wrote:
  It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute
  by Luc Breton.
  RT
  On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, JarosÃâaw Lipski wrote:
  The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto
  attiorbato, 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[John Mardinly]

   Not true!
"Segovian usually means unmusical, sloppy, irritating etc." for his
   solo playing, but when he played with an ensemble, he was forced to be
   disciplined and musical, like it or not. Just listen to his recordings
   of Rodrigo's Fantasia para un Gentlehombre, Ponce's Concerto del Sur,
   and Castelnuovo-Tedesco's Guitar Quintet.
   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.

   On Oct 11, 2016, at 2:46 AM, Roman Turovsky <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

   There is really nothing Segovian about it.
   A Segovian usually means unmusical, sloppy, irritating etc.
   RT
   On 10/11/2016 5:09 AM, Diego Cantalupi wrote:

 The question is different:
 why one should play a baroque lute concerto on a lute-shaped guitar
 using an old fashon Segovian style?
 Il 11/10/2016 10:47, Jarosław Lipski ha scritto:

 On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky <[2]r.turov...@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are
 absent is this.
 Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without.
 Stephen Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov
 without.
 RT

 Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca's
 performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask
 questions like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is
 little evidence for this type of instrument, why someone uses
 fingernails if the evidence speaks against using them, and why
 someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who'll find any
 evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously,
 then
 one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more
 guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical
 education
 as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard by an
 audience especially when playing in a group .
 Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that
 there are 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who
 has
 no experience in early music may feel a little bit confused.
 Best
 JL

 On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

 Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another
 version of RV93 played by Luca here
 [3]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.
 com_watch-3Fv-3DJB101T-5FsVog=CwIFaQ=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41
 FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=3P9
 QDlxbOgfZVomqcWiWBRDUwIPP4rko1mGvuO7pas0=lQHWwhXbLLNcN7YENyhOJtBTy
 y2JO7IH-yDcK3vPB6U=
 <[4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube
 .com_watch-3Fv-3DJB101T-5FsVog=CwIFaQ=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz4
 1FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=3P
 9QDlxbOgfZVomqcWiWBRDUwIPP4rko1mGvuO7pas0=lQHWwhXbLLNcN7YENyhOJtBT
 yy2JO7IH-yDcK3vPB6U= >
 The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for
 this type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly
 noticed. Luca uses fingernails, so this is another factor that
 influences the overall sound (not only mics).
 JL

 On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky <[5]r.turov...@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 on a good authority of RT.
 Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
 RT
 On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

 Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
 JL

 On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky <[6]r.turov...@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute
 by Luc Breton.
 RT
 On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

 The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto
 attiorbato, but a liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca
 Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use it,
 however I would be far from saying that this is a historical
 instrument - see here
 [7]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__liuto-2Dforte
 .com_ueb-5F00-5Fen.html=CwIFaQ=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZF
 k4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=3P9QDlxbO
 gfZVomqcWiWBRDUwIPP4rko1mGvuO7pas0=JQXm-pLZcbeuLRxq6AoMwiz59QL9UAt
 sertUf4NRHJ0=
 <[8]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__liuto-2Dfort
 e.com_ueb-5F00-5Fen.html=CwIFaQ=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZ
 Fk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=3P9QDlxb
 OgfZVomqcWiWBRDUwIPP4rko1mGvuO7pas0=JQXm-pLZcbeuLRxq6AoMwiz59QL9UA
 tsertUf4NRHJ0= > It’s easier to
 play and was specially created with guitarists in mind.
 Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque.
 Having said that, his performance from musical point of view
 was successful, and I am glad to see people talking 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[jmpoirier2]

   So do I ! Well done Diego !

   Jean-Marie

   Envoyé depuis mon appareil Samsung

    Message d'origine 
   De : Jarosław Lipski <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>
   Date : 11/10/2016 2:31 PM (GMT+01:00)
   À : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Objet : [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
   Very nicely played Diego, with taste. I like your version. My
   congratulations ;)
   JL
   > On 11 Oct 2016, at 09:10, Diego Cantalupi <tio...@gmail.com> wrote:
   >
   > Here's my version:
   >
   > https://youtu.be/dkPp4pDWGQI
   >
   > I used an 'ordinary' archlute. In my opinion there are no problems
   about single or double strings, but mainly about good taste and
   esthetic.
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

Very nicely played Diego, with taste. I like your version. My congratulations ;)
JL


> On 11 Oct 2016, at 09:10, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
> 
> Here's my version:
> 
> https://youtu.be/dkPp4pDWGQI
> 
> I used an 'ordinary' archlute. In my opinion there are no problems about 
> single or double strings, but mainly about good taste and esthetic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Daniel Shoskes]

I love this thread. Started as an open ended question about wadyathinkaboutthis 
and has become a Rorschach test for HIP interpretation. 

First off, the I in HIP is informed, not identical. As our musicological and 
historical lutherie evidence grows, we can try to recreate and imitate aspects 
of original performance within modern limitations (maybe the sound was heard 
differently if half the audience had tertiary syphilis?!). Many of these things 
will impact the sound a lot, others minimally or not at all. If a piece was 
written for a 12 course lute and you play it on a 13 course instrument I don’t 
think you are losing its essence. For solo music I think the sound is quite 
different between single and double strung lutes, for continuo in a large band, 
maybe not so perceptible. Of course gut is a different sound to synthetic but 
if you don’t have the luxury of a humidity controlled hall and you are running 
from the airport to the gig with a 1 hour rehearsal, there’s no point having 
that better gut sound if everything goes out of tune every 5 minutes. 

What clearly is HIP is using the resources at hand for the gig of the day. I’m 
sure Weiss didn’t worry about finding a re-entrant theorbo to play continuo in 
an Italian opera (did he even play those?) when he had his d minor tuned German 
Theorbo at hand. If a continuo player got arthritis and couldn’t twist their 
wrist to play thumb out, I’m sure they did just fine recreating the sound thumb 
under. I’ve heard Sylvan Bergeron play continuo with his single strung archlute 
thumb under in anachronistic rep and it was both highly musical and audible. 
I’m relying on memory of reading concert notes or perhaps a CD booklet but I 
THINK the type of lute Vivaldi had in mind for this concerto is unclear or 
perhaps controversial. Given that it’s mostly single line alternating with 
chords, it’s not a stretch to play it on a Ren or Baroque tuned instrument. 

To the performance, listening with my eyes closed, there are things I like and 
things I don’t. I really don’t like the playing of the bowed strings. I do like 
the improvisational ornaments added to the solo line (although I think there 
were a couple trills starting on the lower note). Listening to some of the 
recordings I own, which of course is not a direct comparison with a live 
performance, I do prefer O’Dette, Lindberg, Lislevand and McFarlane to this, 
both for the solo playing and for the accompaniment but these are great players 
and all the performances (including the video) are good. With my eyes open 
watching the video, the right hand is very guitaristic with the thumb playing 
very un-baroque free stroke and a few finger rest strokes I thought I saw. For 
me, falls in the category of “they didn’t do it that way” but given the single 
strung instrument I don’t think it really changes the sound much. 

Danny

> On Oct 11, 2016, at 6:16 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
> 
> Let's say that his playing is quite irritating for me.
> 
> Inviato da iPhone
> 
>> Il giorno 11 ott 2016, alle ore 11:46, Roman Turovsky  
>> ha scritto:
>> 
>> 
>> There is really nothing Segovian about it.
>> 
>> A Segovian usually means unmusical, sloppy, irritating etc.
>> 
>> RT
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10/11/2016 5:09 AM, Diego Cantalupi wrote:
>>> The question is different:
>>> 
>>> why one should play a baroque lute concerto on a lute-shaped guitar
>>> using an old fashon Segovian style?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Il 11/10/2016 10:47, Jarosław Lipski ha scritto:
> On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are
> absent is this.
> 
> Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without.
> Stephen Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.
> 
> RT
> 
 Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s
 performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask
 questions like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is
 little evidence for this type of instrument, why someone uses
 fingernails if the evidence speaks against using them, and why
 someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who’ll find any
 evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then
 one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more
 guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical education
 as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard by an
 audience especially when playing in a group .
 Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that
 there are 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has
 no experience in early music may feel a little bit confused.
 Best
 JL
 
 
>> On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> Name it as you like, for me 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

…so now you’re talking ;) It’s all about mixing aesthetics - old and modern. 
Why then do you insist on calling it HIP? 
I played this concerto on several occasions on various historical double strung 
instruments and we never felt any problems with a proper balance between an 
ensemble and a lute. It depends on attitude of all instrumentalists in a group.
JL


> On 11 Oct 2016, at 12:06, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> there are plenty of reasons to use a single-strung archlute, the most obvious 
> of these are the volume, precision and speed that are required by the
> standards of 21st century HIP orchestral playing.
> RT
> 
> 
> On 10/11/2016 4:48 AM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s 
>> performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask questions 
>> like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is little evidence 
>> for this type of instrument, why someone uses fingernails if the evidence 
>> speaks against using them, and why someone uses amplification (Noble prize 
>> for someone who’ll find any evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used 
>> simultaneously, then one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it 
>> is much more guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical 
>> education as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard by 
>> an audience especially when playing in a group .
>> Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that there are 
>> 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has no experience in 
>> early music may feel a little bit confused.
>> Best
>> JL
>>> On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are absent is 
>>> this.
>>> 
>>> Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without. Stephen 
>>> Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.
>>> 
>>> RT
>>> 
>>> On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
 Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version 
 of RV93 played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
 
 The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this 
 type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca 
 uses fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall 
 sound (not only mics).
 JL
 
 
> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> on a good authority of RT.
> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
> RT
> 
> 
> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
>> JL
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc 
>>> Breton.
>>> RT
>>> 
>>> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
 The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but 
 a liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, 
 Eric Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from 
 saying that this is a historical instrument - see here 
 http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
  It’s easier to play and 
 was specially created with guitarists in mind.
 Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having 
 said that, his performance from musical point of view was successful, 
 and I am glad to see people talking about music on this list :)
 Best
 
 
> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and 
>> not. in D.
>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the 
>> violins.
> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino 
> Armonico plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on 
> the Youtube video we’re talking about.  This is commonly done 
> to avoid detection by copyright bots.
> 
> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same 
> concerto, sounding in D at A 415:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
> 
> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this 
> one.
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Diego Cantalupi]

Let's say that his playing is quite irritating for me.

Inviato da iPhone

> Il giorno 11 ott 2016, alle ore 11:46, Roman Turovsky  
> ha scritto:
> 
> 
> There is really nothing Segovian about it.
> 
> A Segovian usually means unmusical, sloppy, irritating etc.
> 
> RT
> 
> 
>> On 10/11/2016 5:09 AM, Diego Cantalupi wrote:
>> The question is different:
>> 
>> why one should play a baroque lute concerto on a lute-shaped guitar
>> using an old fashon Segovian style?
>> 
>> 
>> Il 11/10/2016 10:47, Jarosław Lipski ha scritto:
 On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
 
 Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are
 absent is this.
 
 Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without.
 Stephen Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.
 
 RT
 
>>> Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s
>>> performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask
>>> questions like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is
>>> little evidence for this type of instrument, why someone uses
>>> fingernails if the evidence speaks against using them, and why
>>> someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who’ll find any
>>> evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then
>>> one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more
>>> guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical education
>>> as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard by an
>>> audience especially when playing in a group .
>>> Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that
>>> there are 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has
>>> no experience in early music may feel a little bit confused.
>>> Best
>>> JL
>>> 
>>> 
> On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
> Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another
> version of RV93 played by Luca here
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog
> 
> The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for
> this type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly
> noticed. Luca uses fingernails, so this is another factor that
> influences the overall sound (not only mics).
> JL
> 
> 
>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> on a good authority of RT.
>> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
>> RT
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
>>> JL
>>> 
>>> 
 On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky 
 wrote:
 
 It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute
 by Luc Breton.
 RT
 
> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto
> attiorbato, but a liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca
> Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use it,
> however I would be far from saying that this is a historical
> instrument - see here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html
>  It’s easier to
> play and was specially created with guitarists in mind.
> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque.
> Having said that, his performance from musical point of view
> was successful, and I am glad to see people talking about music
> on this list :)
> Best
> 
> 
>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C,
>>> and not. in D.
>>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange
>>> for the violins.
>> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe
>> Giardino Armonico plays at A 415. I’m guessing the
>> pitch is lowered on the Youtube video we’re talking
>> about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright
>> bots.
>> 
>> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same
>> concerto, sounding in D at A 415:
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
>> 
>> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up
>> on this one.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

there are plenty of reasons to use a single-strung archlute, the most
obvious of these are the volume, precision and speed that are required
by the
standards of 21st century HIP orchestral playing.
RT


On 10/11/2016 4:48 AM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s performance 
was very successful. On the other hand one may ask questions like: why someone 
plays single strung archlute if there is little evidence for this type of 
instrument, why someone uses fingernails if the evidence speaks against using 
them, and why someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who’ll find 
any evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then one 
may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more guitar-like, 
and most of lute players started their musical education as guitarists. Another 
problem is the fear of not being heard by an audience especially when playing 
in a group .
Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that there are 2 
ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has no experience in 
early music may feel a little bit confused.
Best
JL

On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are absent is 
this.

Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without. Stephen 
Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.

RT

On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version of RV93 
played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 

The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this type of 
archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca uses 
fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall sound (not 
only mics).
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

on a good authority of RT.
Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
RT


On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc Breton.
RT

On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a liuto forte. 
Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use 
it, however I would be far from saying that this is a historical instrument - see 
here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
 It’s easier to play and was 
specially created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, 
his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to see 
people talking about music on this list :)
Best



On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:



On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:

The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.

Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by 
copyright bots.

Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
sounding in D at A 415:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

There is really nothing Segovian about it.

A Segovian usually means unmusical, sloppy, irritating etc.

RT


On 10/11/2016 5:09 AM, Diego Cantalupi wrote:

The question is different:

why one should play a baroque lute concerto on a lute-shaped guitar
using an old fashon Segovian style?


Il 11/10/2016 10:47, Jarosław Lipski ha scritto:

On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are
absent is this.

Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without.
Stephen Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.

RT


Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s
performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask
questions like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is
little evidence for this type of instrument, why someone uses
fingernails if the evidence speaks against using them, and why
someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who’ll find any
evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then
one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more
guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical education
as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard by an
audience especially when playing in a group .
Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that
there are 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has
no experience in early music may feel a little bit confused.
Best
JL



On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another
version of RV93 played by Luca here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog

The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for
this type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly
noticed. Luca uses fingernails, so this is another factor that
influences the overall sound (not only mics).
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky 
wrote:

on a good authority of RT.
Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
RT


On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky 
wrote:

It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute
by Luc Breton.
RT

On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto
attiorbato, but a liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca
Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use it,
however I would be far from saying that this is a historical
instrument - see here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html
 It’s easier to
play and was specially created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque.
Having said that, his performance from musical point of view
was successful, and I am glad to see people talking about music
on this list :)
Best



On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner
 wrote:



On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi
 wrote:

The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C,
and not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange
for the violins.

Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe
Giardino Armonico plays at A 415. I’m guessing the
pitch is lowered on the Youtube video we’re talking
about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright
bots.

Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same
concerto, sounding in D at A 415:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up
on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Diego Cantalupi]

The question is different:

why one should play a baroque lute concerto on a lute-shaped guitar 
using an old fashon Segovian style?



Il 11/10/2016 10:47, Jarosław Lipski ha scritto:

On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are absent is 
this.

Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without. Stephen 
Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.

RT


Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s performance 
was very successful. On the other hand one may ask questions like: why someone 
plays single strung archlute if there is little evidence for this type of 
instrument, why someone uses fingernails if the evidence speaks against using 
them, and why someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who’ll find 
any evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then one 
may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more guitar-like, 
and most of lute players started their musical education as guitarists. Another 
problem is the fear of not being heard by an audience especially when playing 
in a group .
Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that there are 2 
ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has no experience in 
early music may feel a little bit confused.
Best
JL



On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version of RV93 
played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 

The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this type of 
archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca uses 
fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall sound (not 
only mics).
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

on a good authority of RT.
Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
RT


On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc Breton.
RT

On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a liuto forte. 
Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use 
it, however I would be far from saying that this is a historical instrument - see 
here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
 It’s easier to play and was 
specially created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, 
his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to see 
people talking about music on this list :)
Best



On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:



On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:

The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.

Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by 
copyright bots.

Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
sounding in D at A 415:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

> On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are absent is 
> this.
> 
> Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without. Stephen 
> Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.
> 
> RT
> 

Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s performance 
was very successful. On the other hand one may ask questions like: why someone 
plays single strung archlute if there is little evidence for this type of 
instrument, why someone uses fingernails if the evidence speaks against using 
them, and why someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who’ll find 
any evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then one 
may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more guitar-like, 
and most of lute players started their musical education as guitarists. Another 
problem is the fear of not being heard by an audience especially when playing 
in a group . 
Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that there are 2 
ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has no experience in 
early music may feel a little bit confused.
Best
JL


> On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version 
>> of RV93 played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
>> 
>> The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this type 
>> of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca uses 
>> fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall sound 
>> (not only mics).
>> JL
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
>>> 
>>> on a good authority of RT.
>>> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
>>> RT
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
 Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
 JL
 
 
> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc 
> Breton.
> RT
> 
> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a 
>> liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric 
>> Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from saying that 
>> this is a historical instrument - see here 
>> http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
>>  It’s easier to play and 
>> was specially created with guitarists in mind.
>> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said 
>> that, his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I 
>> am glad to see people talking about music on this list :)
>> Best
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
 
 The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. 
 in D.
 It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the 
 violins.
>>> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino 
>>> Armonico plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on 
>>> the Youtube video we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to 
>>> avoid detection by copyright bots.
>>> 
>>> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
>>> sounding in D at A 415:
>>> 
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
>>> 
>>> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this 
>>> one.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> --
 
>> 
>> --
> 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Diego Cantalupi]

Here's my version:

https://youtu.be/dkPp4pDWGQI

I used an 'ordinary' archlute. In my opinion there are no problems about 
single or double strings, but mainly about good taste and esthetic.





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are absent 
is this.


Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without. 
Stephen Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.


RT

On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version of RV93 
played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 

The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this type of 
archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca uses 
fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall sound (not 
only mics).
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

on a good authority of RT.
Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
RT


On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc Breton.
RT

On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a liuto forte. 
Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use 
it, however I would be far from saying that this is a historical instrument - see 
here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
 It’s easier to play and was 
specially created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, 
his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to see 
people talking about music on this list :)
Best



On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:



On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:

The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.

Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by 
copyright bots.

Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
sounding in D at A 415:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--




--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Robert Gallagher]

Greetings all.  I’m not even the last guy you would ask for an opinion on 
historical authenticity, but I have several times played this concerto on 
classical guitar, accompanied by both piano and string ensemble.  My read is 
that this is a musically very satisfying performance.  I really enjoyed the way 
that the lute was able to take the principal role as the solo instrument 
should.  It’s true that the single stringing on the instrument gives it a 
certain resonance that approaches the sonority of the guitar, but that poses 
absolutely no problem for me.  On the contrary, that “single-mindedness” 
really helps the lute stand out against a very busy background.  Truth be told, 
though I’m very interested in the historical integrity of an interpretation, 
that aspect is, for me, secondary to the musical satisfaction.  Sometimes the 
historically correct version is the most musically satisfying; other times it 
is not.  But I do feel that the intellectual exercise of authent!
 icity is a secondary concern to the aesthetic satisfaction of a performance, 
one that can make the listener vibrate.  All best, Robert

Robert Gallagher
Tour Béryl BAL 68-3
40, avenue d’Italie
75013 Paris FRANCE

+33 (0) 983 79 70 48

> On 10 Oct 2016, at 23:33, Jarosław Lipski  wrote:
> 
> Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version of 
> RV93 played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
>  
> The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this type 
> of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca uses 
> fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall sound (not 
> only mics).
> JL
> 
> 
>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
>> 
>> on a good authority of RT.
>> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
>> RT
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
>>> JL
>>> 
>>> 
 On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
 
 It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc 
 Breton.
 RT
 
 On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a 
> liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric 
> Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from saying that 
> this is a historical instrument - see here 
> http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
>  It’s easier to play and 
> was specially created with guitarists in mind.
> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said 
> that, his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am 
> glad to see people talking about music on this list :)
> Best
> 
> 
>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. 
>>> in D.
>>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the 
>>> violins.
>> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino 
>> Armonico plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on 
>> the Youtube video we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to 
>> avoid detection by copyright bots.
>> 
>> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
>> sounding in D at A 415:
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
>> 
>> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this 
>> one.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> --


--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version of 
RV93 played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
 
The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this type of 
archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca uses 
fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall sound (not 
only mics).
JL


> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> on a good authority of RT.
> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
> RT
> 
> 
> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
>> JL
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc 
>>> Breton.
>>> RT
>>> 
>>> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
 The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a 
 liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric 
 Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from saying that 
 this is a historical instrument - see here 
 http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
  It’s easier to play and was 
 specially created with guitarists in mind.
 Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said 
 that, his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am 
 glad to see people talking about music on this list :)
 Best
 
 
> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
>> 
>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in 
>> D.
>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the 
>> violins.
> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino 
> Armonico plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the 
> Youtube video we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid 
> detection by copyright bots.
> 
> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
> sounding in D at A 415:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
> 
> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
>> 
>> 
> 


--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Matthew Daillie]

On 10/10/2016 22:28, Roman Turovsky wrote:

on a good authority of RT.
Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
RT


On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by 
Luc Breton.

RT

On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, 
but a liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano 
Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be 
far from saying that this is a historical instrument - see here 
http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
 It’s easier to play and 
was specially created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said 
that, his performance from musical point of view was successful, 
and I am glad to see people talking about music on this list :)

Best


On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  
wrote:



On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  
wrote:


The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and 
not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for 
the violins.
Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino 
Armonico plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on 
the Youtube video we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to 
avoid detection by copyright bots.


Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
sounding in D at A 415:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--



Luc Breton used to make lutes for Julian Bream. Probably not a million 
miles away from a liuto forte. HIP?


For those of you who understand French (or enjoy the absurd translations 
of simultaneously generated sub-titles):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WpYuLmUYqk

Best,

Matthew

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

on a good authority of RT.
Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
RT


On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
JL



On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:

It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc Breton.
RT

On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a liuto forte. 
Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use 
it, however I would be far from saying that this is a historical instrument - see 
here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
 It’s easier to play and was specially 
created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, his 
performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to see 
people talking about music on this list :)
Best



On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:



On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:

The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.

Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright 
bots.

Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, sounding in 
D at A 415:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[G. C.]

   I must say, the sound was more guitar than lute like
   G.

   On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:29 PM, fournierbru <[1]fournier...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

Hello all
I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the Vivaldu
 lute
concerto I found on YouTube.
[2]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
BRUNO
Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:fournier...@gmail.com
   2. https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
JL


> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc Breton.
> RT
> 
> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a 
>> liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric 
>> Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from saying that this 
>> is a historical instrument - see here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
>>  It’s easier to play and was 
>> specially created with guitarists in mind.
>> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, 
>> his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to 
>> see people talking about music on this list :)
>> Best
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
 
 The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
 It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.
>>> 
>>> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
>>> plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
>>> we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by 
>>> copyright bots.
>>> 
>>> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, sounding 
>>> in D at A 415:
>>> 
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
>>> 
>>> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>> --
> 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Roman Turovsky]

It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc 
Breton.

RT

On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:

The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a liuto forte. 
Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and many others use 
it, however I would be far from saying that this is a historical instrument - see 
here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
 It’s easier to play and was specially 
created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, his 
performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to see 
people talking about music on this list :)
Best



On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:



On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:

The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.


Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright 
bots.

Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, sounding in 
D at A 415:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Richard Brook]

Great I thought. Very lute-like, and I’ve heard all the others.

Dick Brook

> On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie  wrote:
> 
> On 10/10/2016 15:29, fournierbru wrote:
>> Hello all
>> 
>>I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the Vivaldu lute
>>concerto I found on YouTube.
>> 
>>https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>> 
>>BRUNO
> 
> Not my cup of tea. He's using what looks like a single strung 13-course liuto 
> forte, very guitar like and not particularly enticing.
> 
> Paul O'Dette and Ronn McFarlane have both recorded this work. I suspect their 
> interpretations are rather more subtle and historically informed.
> 
> Best
> 
> Matthew
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Richard Brook]

> On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie  wrote:
> 
> On 10/10/2016 15:29, fournierbru wrote:
>> Hello all
>> 
>>I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the Vivaldu lute
>>concerto I found on YouTube.
>> 
>>https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>> 
>>BRUNO
> 
> Not my cup of tea. He's using what looks like a single strung 13-course liuto 
> forte, very guitar like and not particularly enticing.
> 
> Paul O'Dette and Ronn McFarlane have both recorded this work. I suspect their 
> interpretations are rather more subtle and historically informed.
> 
> Best
> 
> Matthew
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Sean Smith]

But, … doubled gut frets!

I was struck by how classical guitar-like the fretboard was. Then I kept 
thinking the extension would probably have to be longer on a HIP instrument. 
Now I know. Thanks. Hull and spars notwithstanding, am I right in imagining the 
rigging isn’t very different from a harp guitar?

Sean


On Oct 10, 2016, at 11:06 AM, Jarosław Lipski  wrote:

> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a 
> liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric 
> Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from saying that this 
> is a historical instrument - see here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
>  It’s easier to play and was specially 
> created with guitarists in mind.
> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, his 
> performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to see 
> people talking about music on this list :)
> Best
> 




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a liuto 
forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and 
many others use it, however I would be far from saying that this is a 
historical instrument - see here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
 It’s easier to play and was specially 
created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, his 
performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to see 
people talking about music on this list :)
Best


> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
>> 
>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.
> 
> 
> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
> plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
> we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright 
> bots.
> 
> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, sounding 
> in D at A 415:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
> 
> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Bernd Haegemann]

Some years ago I was so lucky as to listen to Luca Pianca on this 
instrument accompanying Chr. Prégardien with Schumann songs.

I can assure you, that was HIP!






To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Paolo Busato]

   Am I wrong or in the first movement, sixth bar, second beat "piano",
   they play on the downbeat instead of playing on the upbeat (as also did
   J. Bream on an old recording)?

   Paolo Busato lute maker
   [1]www.busatolutes.com

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   di
   eliminarla e di contattare il mittente (Legge italiana 196/2003).  The
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   and any attachments and contact the sender. (Italian Law 196/2003)
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   Il 10/10/2016 17:44, Edward Martin ha scritto:

   I have performed this concerto in the past, a few times.   Firstly, I
   observed his fingerings, and it is apparent that he is playing in C -
   major.   The composition is in D - major, so I think the ensemble
   recorded it a step down from how it was actually composed.
   Actually those fingerings are easier in C major than in D major.   I
   once performed it with an ensemble in D major, but used an alto lute in
   "a", so it had the same relative tuning as he used.

   On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Ron Andrico
   [2]<[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

The only bit of opinion in my previous message was that I thought
 Luca
Pianca's performance was musical.   The rest is supported by
 factual
information.
  
 __
From: Matthew Daillie [3]<[2]dail...@club-internet.fr>
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:11 PM
To: Ron Andrico
Cc: fournierbru; [[4]3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
    Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

  I'm not in the least bit surprised that our opinions and tastes
   differ
  Ron.
  Matthew
  > On Oct 10, 2016, at 16:51, Ron Andrico [5]<[4]praelu...@hotmail.com>
   wrote:
  >
  >Hmm...Historically-informed must have taken on a different
   meaning
  >while I wasn't paying attention.   I should think Luca Pianca
   and
  his
  >Italian compatriots might have a bit more of a secure
   connection
  with
  >Vivaldi's music than the American's you name.   O'Dette
   recorded
  this
  >music with a silly little chirpy mandolino playing with a
   rather
  stiff
  >sounding band.   McFarlane's interpretation is vibrant and
   lovely
  but
  >what we hear in this video with Luca Pianca has everything to
   do
  with a
  >microphone placement that allows the lute to be heard above the
  rest of
  >the band, as is certainly the case in the other recordings
  mentioned.
  >As far as I can tell, single stringing was sometimes used by
   the
  old
  >ones but Luca Pianca's hand position is definitely
  >historically-accurate for Vivaldi's era.   The under thumb
   approach
  >ceased to exist with the advent of many additional basses,
   circa
  1600,
  >and those who use that hand position in baroque music today are
  >not using an historically-informed approach.   So unless
  >historically-informed now has something to do with microphone
  >placement, I think the video example is compelling and musical.
  >
  >RA
  >
  __
  >
  >From: [[6]5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [7]<[6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
  behalf
  >of Matthew Daillie [8]<[7]dail...@club-internet.fr>
  >    Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 1:54 PM
  >To: fournierbru; [[9]8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
  >
  >>On 10/10/2016 15:29, fournierbru wrote:
  >> Hello all
  >>
  >> I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the
   Vivaldu
  >lute
  >> concerto I found on YouTube.
  >>
  >> [1][9][10]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
  >[2][maxresdefault.jpg]
  >[3]Vivaldi - Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 - Il Giardino
   Armonico
  >[10]youtu.be
  >Antonio Vivaldi Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 1 Allegro 2
   Largo 3
  >Allegro Luca Pianca, lute Il Giardino Armonico
  >>
  >> BRUNO
  >Not my cup o

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[John Mardinly]

   Excellent "Thumb Out" playing.

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   Retired Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer
   EMail: [1]john.mardi...@asu.edu
   Cell: [2]408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs)
   But don't call the lab….I won't be there!

   On Oct 10, 2016, at 6:29 AM, fournierbru <[3]fournier...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

 Hello all
 I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the Vivaldu lute
 concerto I found on YouTube.
 [4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_u9m3
   ghjN0RE=CwIBAg=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvn
   WTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=X7jBhpsSCZTNDftdYvaK4xC4t8-hv95
   RQH564yADdwc=eyzmvoYmFQqIEr4RSSZboTqF8wgThEdm_kcTWi0F1c4=
 BRUNO
 Sent from my Bell Samsung device over Canada's largest network.
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [5]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth
   .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=CwIBAg=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Eji
   z41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=X7j
   BhpsSCZTNDftdYvaK4xC4t8-hv95RQH564yADdwc=iucsHDMF4PhmB-2FGtxjS7pz9yIT
   bC9RovK7VGftOOw=

References

   1. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu
   2. tel:408-921-3253
   3. mailto:fournier...@gmail.com
   4. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__youtu.be_u9m3ghjN0RE=CwIBAg=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=X7jBhpsSCZTNDftdYvaK4xC4t8-hv95RQH564yADdwc=eyzmvoYmFQqIEr4RSSZboTqF8wgThEdm_kcTWi0F1c4=
   5. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=CwIBAg=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=X7jBhpsSCZTNDftdYvaK4xC4t8-hv95RQH564yADdwc=iucsHDMF4PhmB-2FGtxjS7pz9yITbC9RovK7VGftOOw=

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Charles Mokotoff]

   I like it! :)

   On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 12:23 PM, howard posner
   <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote:

 > On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi <[2]tio...@gmail.com>
 wrote:
 >
 > The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and
 not. in D.
 > It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the
 violins.
 Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.   I believe Giardino
 Armonico plays at A 415.   I'm guessing the pitch is lowered on the
 Youtube video we're talking about.   This is commonly done to avoid
 detection by copyright bots.
 Here's a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto,
 sounding in D at A 415:
 [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
 Of course, it's possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   2. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[howard posner]

> On Oct 10, 2016, at 7:51 AM, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> As far as I can tell, single stringing was sometimes used by the old
>   ones

I’ve always assumed that someone in the 1600’s and 1700’s must have 
single-strung their lutes for the same reasons some modern players do, but I 
was unaware of any actual evidence for the practice.  Do you know of any?



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[howard posner]

> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
> 
> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.


Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video we’re 
talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright bots.

Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, sounding in D 
at A 415:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM

Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Edward Martin]

   I have performed this concerto in the past, a few times.   Firstly, I
   observed his fingerings, and it is apparent that he is playing in C -
   major.   The composition is in D - major, so I think the ensemble
   recorded it a step down from how it was actually composed.
   Actually those fingerings are easier in C major than in D major.   I
   once performed it with an ensemble in D major, but used an alto lute in
   "a", so it had the same relative tuning as he used.

   On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Ron Andrico
   <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

The only bit of opinion in my previous message was that I thought
 Luca
Pianca's performance was musical.   The rest is supported by
 factual
information.
  
 __
From: Matthew Daillie <[2]dail...@club-internet.fr>
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:11 PM
To: Ron Andrico
Cc: fournierbru; [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
    Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

  I'm not in the least bit surprised that our opinions and tastes
   differ
  Ron.
  Matthew
  > On Oct 10, 2016, at 16:51, Ron Andrico <[4]praelu...@hotmail.com>
   wrote:
  >
  >Hmm...Historically-informed must have taken on a different
   meaning
  >while I wasn't paying attention.   I should think Luca Pianca
   and
  his
  >Italian compatriots might have a bit more of a secure
   connection
  with
  >Vivaldi's music than the American's you name.   O'Dette
   recorded
  this
  >music with a silly little chirpy mandolino playing with a
   rather
  stiff
  >sounding band.   McFarlane's interpretation is vibrant and
   lovely
  but
  >what we hear in this video with Luca Pianca has everything to
   do
  with a
  >microphone placement that allows the lute to be heard above the
  rest of
  >the band, as is certainly the case in the other recordings
  mentioned.
  >As far as I can tell, single stringing was sometimes used by
   the
  old
  >ones but Luca Pianca's hand position is definitely
  >historically-accurate for Vivaldi's era.   The under thumb
   approach
  >ceased to exist with the advent of many additional basses,
   circa
  1600,
  >and those who use that hand position in baroque music today are
  >not using an historically-informed approach.   So unless
  >historically-informed now has something to do with microphone
  >placement, I think the video example is compelling and musical.
  >
  >RA
  >
  __
  >
  >From: [5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   <[6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
  behalf
  >of Matthew Daillie <[7]dail...@club-internet.fr>
  >    Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 1:54 PM
  >To: fournierbru; [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
  >
  >>On 10/10/2016 15:29, fournierbru wrote:
  >> Hello all
  >>
  >> I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the
   Vivaldu
  >lute
  >> concerto I found on YouTube.
  >>
  >> [1][9]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
  >[2][maxresdefault.jpg]
  >[3]Vivaldi - Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 - Il Giardino
   Armonico
  >[10]youtu.be
  >Antonio Vivaldi Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 1 Allegro 2
   Largo 3
  >Allegro Luca Pianca, lute Il Giardino Armonico
  >>
  >> BRUNO
  >Not my cup of tea. He's using what looks like a single strung
  13-course
  >liuto forte, very guitar like and not particularly enticing.
  >Paul O'Dette and Ronn McFarlane have both recorded this work. I
  suspect
  >their interpretations are rather more subtle and historically
  informed.
  >Best
  >Matthew
  >To get on or off this list see list information at
  >[4][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  >[5]Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail
   list

>[1][12]www.cs.dartmouth.edu
[2]Department of Computer Science
[13]www.cs.dartmouth.edu
Assistant Professor in Machine Learning. We are inviting
 applications
for a tenure-track faculty position at the level of assistant
 professor
in the area of machine ...
>Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail
 list.
getting
>on and off the list; How do I get on the lute

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Matthew Daillie]

On 10/10/2016 17:14, Ron Andrico wrote:
The only bit of opinion in my previous message was that I thought Luca 
Pianca's performance was musical.  The rest is supported by factual 
information.


I'll let you have the last word



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Diego Cantalupi]

The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.


Inviato da iPad

> Il giorno 10 ott 2016, alle ore 17:14, Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com> ha 
> scritto:
> 
>   The only bit of opinion in my previous message was that I thought Luca
>   Pianca's performance was musical.  The rest is supported by factual
>   information.
> __
> 
>   From: Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>
>   Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:11 PM
>   To: Ron Andrico
>   Cc: fournierbru; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
> 
>   I'm not in the least bit surprised that our opinions and tastes differ
>   Ron.
>   Matthew
>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 16:51, Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  Hmm...Historically-informed must have taken on a different meaning
>>  while I wasn't paying attention.  I should think Luca Pianca and
>   his
>>  Italian compatriots might have a bit more of a secure connection
>   with
>>  Vivaldi's music than the American's you name.  O'Dette recorded
>   this
>>  music with a silly little chirpy mandolino playing with a rather
>   stiff
>>  sounding band.  McFarlane's interpretation is vibrant and lovely
>   but
>>  what we hear in this video with Luca Pianca has everything to do
>   with a
>>  microphone placement that allows the lute to be heard above the
>   rest of
>>  the band, as is certainly the case in the other recordings
>   mentioned.
>>  As far as I can tell, single stringing was sometimes used by the
>   old
>>  ones but Luca Pianca's hand position is definitely
>>  historically-accurate for Vivaldi's era.  The under thumb approach
>>  ceased to exist with the advent of many additional basses, circa
>   1600,
>>  and those who use that hand position in baroque music today are
>>  not using an historically-informed approach.  So unless
>>  historically-informed now has something to do with microphone
>>  placement, I think the video example is compelling and musical.
>> 
>>  RA
>   __
>> 
>>  From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
>   behalf
>>  of Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>
>>  Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 1:54 PM
>>  To: fournierbru; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
>> 
>>>  On 10/10/2016 15:29, fournierbru wrote:
>>> Hello all
>>> 
>>>   I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the Vivaldu
>>  lute
>>>   concerto I found on YouTube.
>>> 
>>>   [1]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>>  [2][maxresdefault.jpg]
>>  [3]Vivaldi - Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 - Il Giardino Armonico
>>  youtu.be
>>  Antonio Vivaldi Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 1 Allegro 2 Largo 3
>>  Allegro Luca Pianca, lute Il Giardino Armonico
>>> 
>>>   BRUNO
>>  Not my cup of tea. He's using what looks like a single strung
>   13-course
>>  liuto forte, very guitar like and not particularly enticing.
>>  Paul O'Dette and Ronn McFarlane have both recorded this work. I
>   suspect
>>  their interpretations are rather more subtle and historically
>   informed.
>>  Best
>>  Matthew
>>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>>  [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>  [5]Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list
>>  [1]www.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   [2]Department of Computer Science
>   www.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Assistant Professor in Machine Learning. We are inviting applications
>   for a tenure-track faculty position at the level of assistant professor
>   in the area of machine ...
>>  Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list.
>   getting
>>  on and off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How do I
>   get
>>  off the lute mail list?
>> 
>>  --
>> 
>> References
>> 
>>  1. [3]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>   [4][maxresdefault.jpg]
>   [5]Vivaldi - Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 - Il Giardino Armonico
>   youtu.be
>   Antonio Vivaldi Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 1 Allegro 2 Largo 3
>   Allegro Luca Pianca, lute Il Giardino Armonico
>>  2. [6]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>   [7]YouTube
>   youtu.be
>   and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
>>  3. [8]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghj

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Matthew Daillie]

I'm not in the least bit surprised that our opinions and tastes differ Ron.
Matthew



> On Oct 10, 2016, at 16:51, Ron Andrico <praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
>   Hmm...Historically-informed must have taken on a different meaning
>   while I wasn't paying attention.  I should think Luca Pianca and his
>   Italian compatriots might have a bit more of a secure connection with
>   Vivaldi's music than the American's you name.  O'Dette recorded this
>   music with a silly little chirpy mandolino playing with a rather stiff
>   sounding band.  McFarlane's interpretation is vibrant and lovely but
>   what we hear in this video with Luca Pianca has everything to do with a
>   microphone placement that allows the lute to be heard above the rest of
>   the band, as is certainly the case in the other recordings mentioned.
>   As far as I can tell, single stringing was sometimes used by the old
>   ones but Luca Pianca's hand position is definitely
>   historically-accurate for Vivaldi's era.  The under thumb approach
>   ceased to exist with the advent of many additional basses, circa 1600,
>   and those who use that hand position in baroque music today are
>   not using an historically-informed approach.  So unless
>   historically-informed now has something to do with microphone
>   placement, I think the video example is compelling and musical.
> 
>   RA
> __
> 
>   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
>   of Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>
>   Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 1:54 PM
>   To: fournierbru; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
> 
>>   On 10/10/2016 15:29, fournierbru wrote:
>> Hello all
>> 
>>I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the Vivaldu
>   lute
>>concerto I found on YouTube.
>> 
>>[1]https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>   [2][maxresdefault.jpg]
>   [3]Vivaldi - Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 - Il Giardino Armonico
>   youtu.be
>   Antonio Vivaldi Lute Concerto in D major, RV 93 1 Allegro 2 Largo 3
>   Allegro Luca Pianca, lute Il Giardino Armonico
>> 
>>BRUNO
>   Not my cup of tea. He's using what looks like a single strung 13-course
>   liuto forte, very guitar like and not particularly enticing.
>   Paul O'Dette and Ronn McFarlane have both recorded this work. I suspect
>   their interpretations are rather more subtle and historically informed.
>   Best
>   Matthew
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   [5]Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list
>   www.cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list. getting
>   on and off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How do I get
>   off the lute mail list?
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>   2. https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>   3. https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE
>   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Matthew Daillie]

On 10/10/2016 15:29, fournierbru wrote:

Hello all

I would like your opinions on this interpretation of the Vivaldu lute
concerto I found on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/u9m3ghjN0RE

BRUNO


Not my cup of tea. He's using what looks like a single strung 13-course 
liuto forte, very guitar like and not particularly enticing.


Paul O'Dette and Ronn McFarlane have both recorded this work. I suspect 
their interpretations are rather more subtle and historically informed.


Best

Matthew



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi RV540 webcast

[Ed Durbrow]

What a great group. I really enjoyed all the performances.

On Apr 19, 2015, at 8:25 PM, Konstantin Shchenikov konstantin.n...@gmail.com 
wrote:

 Dear colleagues!
 
 I am proud to present webcast recording of last concert I've took a
 part. We played a lot of Italiat XVIII c music in Tchaikovsky Concert
 Hall of Moscow Philarmonie with Moscow early music band The Pocket
 Symphony.
 
 Among all continuo things I've played solo Vivaldi RV 540 for lute and
 viola d'amore using baroque mandolin lute-like way with fingers.
 I made some research about year ago and thanks to this list came to
 conclusion that concert was writing not for mandolin :)
 But music director engaged me as soloist mandolinist anyway by his own
 reasons. His taste dictated soprano range instrument playing in the
 same octave with viola d'amore, and it was his decision to make. I was
 a bit sceptical in the very beginning but now I hear it's nice anyway
 and mandolin could be of use. It's just my opinion without any claims.
 
 Here is the link (RV540 starts about 1 h 05 min):
 
 http://www.meloman.ru/concert/znamenitye-instrumentalnye-koncerty-epohi-barokko/#webcast
 
 I would be happy to have some your comments, opinions and waiting for 
 criticism.
 Best regards from St.Petersburg,
 Konstantin.
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/





--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi RV540 webcast

[Braig, Eugene]

Greetings Konstantin,

First, bravo!  I sincerely enjoyed.  Your playing and tone are nicely balanced 
in ensemble.  That said, I wholeheartedly agree with you.  I don't think there 
is any evidence to imply RV 540 was intended for mandolin.  If anything, I 
would argue that the conventional d-minor lute of the time seems far and away 
most likely given the occasion for which this concerto was written.

I realize that in this setting you likely have little say regarding overall 
interpretation, but I like the first movement taken just a little faster.  
Also, the Boccherini-like appearance of castanets in the last movement was a 
little startling and struck me as pretty far removed from appropriate to this 
context.  I actually liked the smooth, round tone added by the recorder early 
on.

I'm curious about your own instrument.  Who is the maker?  Was it based on a 
period original?  It looks rather large to me, a lot like the modern idealized 
barockmandoline/sopranlaute recently popular in Germany.

I'm also interested in your choice of thumb-under technique.  All of the 
iconography of which I'm aware portrays the thumb out on this particular 
instrument in this particular era.

Still, all said a fine-sounding and enjoyable performance.  Again, bravo!

. . . And finally, do you mind if I share your e-mail to an early-mandolin 
group on Facebook?

Best,
Eugene


From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of 
Konstantin Shchenikov [konstantin.n...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2015 7:25 AM
To: lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi RV540 webcast

Dear colleagues!

I am proud to present webcast recording of last concert I've took a
part. We played a lot of Italiat XVIII c music in Tchaikovsky Concert
Hall of Moscow Philarmonie with Moscow early music band The Pocket
Symphony.

Among all continuo things I've played solo Vivaldi RV 540 for lute and
viola d'amore using baroque mandolin lute-like way with fingers.
I made some research about year ago and thanks to this list came to
conclusion that concert was writing not for mandolin :)
But music director engaged me as soloist mandolinist anyway by his own
reasons. His taste dictated soprano range instrument playing in the
same octave with viola d'amore, and it was his decision to make. I was
a bit sceptical in the very beginning but now I hear it's nice anyway
and mandolin could be of use. It's just my opinion without any claims.

Here is the link (RV540 starts about 1 h 05 min):

http://www.meloman.ru/concert/znamenitye-instrumentalnye-koncerty-epohi-barokko/#webcast

I would be happy to have some your comments, opinions and waiting for criticism.
Best regards from St.Petersburg,
Konstantin.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi complete lute works

[David Smith]

Try 
http://www.fondazionearcadia.org/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=108%3Aconcerti-e-trii-per-liuto-e-mandolino-catid=50%3Acatalogo-pubblicazioniItemid=72lang=en
David

Sent from my iPad

 On Sep 4, 2014, at 5:13 AM, Mumin Lute lutenist.mumin.ko...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   Dear collective wisdom of lutenists,
 
   Could anyone let me know where I can get this publication?
   [1]http://issuu.com/emotiv/docs/vivaldidemo
 
   I found this thread in the mail-archive but the last question does not
   seem to be answered yet.
 
   [2]https://www.mail-archive.com/lute%40cs.dartmouth.edu/msg37280.htm
 
   regards,
 
   Tomoko Koide
   --
 
 References
 
   1. http://issuu.com/emotiv/docs/vivaldidemo
   2. https://www.mail-archive.com/lute%40cs.dartmouth.edu/msg37280.htm
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi complete lute works

[David Smith]

Or 
http://www.alle-noten.de/en/Trii-E-Concerti-per-Liuto-Sheet-Music-MK18406-Carisch/c9lqiriu
 to purchase

Sent from my iPad

 On Sep 4, 2014, at 7:41 AM, David Smith d...@dolcesfogato.com wrote:
 
 Try 
 http://www.fondazionearcadia.org/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=108%3Aconcerti-e-trii-per-liuto-e-mandolino-catid=50%3Acatalogo-pubblicazioniItemid=72lang=en
 David
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Sep 4, 2014, at 5:13 AM, Mumin Lute lutenist.mumin.ko...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 
  Dear collective wisdom of lutenists,
 
  Could anyone let me know where I can get this publication?
  [1]http://issuu.com/emotiv/docs/vivaldidemo
 
  I found this thread in the mail-archive but the last question does not
  seem to be answered yet.
 
  [2]https://www.mail-archive.com/lute%40cs.dartmouth.edu/msg37280.htm
 
  regards,
 
  Tomoko Koide
  --
 
 References
 
  1. http://issuu.com/emotiv/docs/vivaldidemo
  2. https://www.mail-archive.com/lute%40cs.dartmouth.edu/msg37280.htm
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Double Cello Concerto RV 531

[Edward C. Yong]

Hi Howard,

Thanks for the reply!

On 2 Sep, 2014, at 1:51 AM, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote:

 On Sep 1, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Style and taste question - do you think an archlute or a baroque guitar 
 would be better for this?
 
 Impossible to answer that question in a vacuum.  It depends on your 
 particular instruments and ability (is your guitar much louder than your 
 archlute? on which instrument are most fluent?), the ensemble you’re playing 
 with (20 modern string players? one-to-a-part baroque instruments? are you 
 the only continuo player, or is there a harpsichord, organ, harp and 14 
 theorbos?)

The archlute's quite loud (Harz model), about the same volume as the guitar, 
though of course if I'm strumming, the guitar is much louder. I'm much more 
fluent on the archlute, but figured some strummy Vivaldi might be the way to 
start getting some experience on the b.g.

The ensemble is all modern strings (3 first violins, 2 second, 1 vla, 1 cello, 
possibly 1 bass), and continuo will be harpsichord and me.

 shot in the dark possibility: I gather, from your lack of confidence in your 
 ability to figure the part, that your continuo skills are not advanced.  If 
 you’re likely to freeze reading figures in the heat of combat, you might 
 consider just marking chord names above the strong beats and important 
 changes and using the guitar.

Not advanced, definitely - even on archlute I need to work out a sort of 80% 
realisation with a top line and learn that before rehearsals. Monteverdi and 
gang I can read figures on the spot but not for later music. 

Thank you!

Edward Chrysogonus Yong
edward.y...@gmail.com






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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Double Cello Concerto RV 531

[Christopher Wilke]

Hi Edward,
   I played this piece with a professional modern orchestra a couple of
   years ago. I don't remember anything about the presence or absence of
   figures. Most Italians from Vivaldi's period didn't notate many figures
   since it was expected that performers were so familiar with
   stereotypical progressions from partimenti that figures were redundant.
   I think I still have a PDF of the music. I'll be happy to send you a
   copy when I get home. (I'll write in figures if you'd like).
   Thanks,
   Chris[1]
   Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
 __

   From: Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com;
   To: Lute List List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu;
   Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi Double Cello Concerto RV 531
   Sent: Mon, Sep 1, 2014 2:01:06 PM
   hi!
   question for folk - all the editions of Vivaldi's Double Cello Concerto
   RV 531 have no continuo figures. i've been asked to play continuo for
   this, but am not confident of making my own figures from looking at the
   other parts. does anyone know of a figured edition?
   Edward Chrysogonus Yong
   [2]edward.y...@gmail.com
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
   2. javascript:return
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Double Cello Concerto RV 531

[Edward C. Yong]

Dear Christopher,

If you could make a version with figures available, I'd be very very grateful!

Style and taste question - do you think an archlute or a baroque guitar would 
be better for this?

Edward Chrysogonus Yong
edward.y...@gmail.com



On 1 Sep, 2014, at 11:15 PM, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Hi Edward,
 
 I played this piece with a professional modern orchestra a couple of years 
 ago. I don't remember anything about the presence or absence of figures. Most 
 Italians from Vivaldi's period didn't notate many figures since it was 
 expected that performers were so familiar with stereotypical progressions 
 from partimenti that figures were redundant. I think I still have a PDF of 
 the music. I'll be happy to send you a copy when I get home. (I'll write in 
 figures if you'd like).
 
 Thanks,
 
 Chris
 
 Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
 
 From: Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com; 
 To: Lute List List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; 
 Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi Double Cello Concerto RV 531 
 Sent: Mon, Sep 1, 2014 2:01:06 PM 
 
 hi!
 
 question for folk - all the editions of Vivaldi's Double Cello Concerto RV 
 531 have no continuo figures. i've been asked to play continuo for this, but 
 am not confident of making my own figures from looking at the other parts. 
 does anyone know of a figured edition?
 
 
 Edward Chrysogonus Yong
 edward.y...@gmail.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Double Cello Concerto RV 531

[r.turov...@gmail.com]

It being in g - archlute methinks.
RT


On 9/1/2014 11:44 AM, Edward C. Yong wrote:

Dear Christopher,

If you could make a version with figures available, I'd be very very grateful!

Style and taste question - do you think an archlute or a baroque guitar would 
be better for this?

Edward Chrysogonus Yong
edward.y...@gmail.com



On 1 Sep, 2014, at 11:15 PM, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote:


Hi Edward,

I played this piece with a professional modern orchestra a couple of years ago. 
I don't remember anything about the presence or absence of figures. Most 
Italians from Vivaldi's period didn't notate many figures since it was expected 
that performers were so familiar with stereotypical progressions from 
partimenti that figures were redundant. I think I still have a PDF of the 
music. I'll be happy to send you a copy when I get home. (I'll write in figures 
if you'd like).

Thanks,

Chris

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad

From: Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com;
To: Lute List List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu;
Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi Double Cello Concerto RV 531
Sent: Mon, Sep 1, 2014 2:01:06 PM

hi!

question for folk - all the editions of Vivaldi's Double Cello Concerto RV 531 
have no continuo figures. i've been asked to play continuo for this, but am not 
confident of making my own figures from looking at the other parts. does anyone 
know of a figured edition?


Edward Chrysogonus Yong
edward.y...@gmail.com






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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Double Cello Concerto RV 531

[Geoff Gaherty]

On 2014-09-01, 11:15 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote:

I played this piece with a professional modern orchestra a couple of
years ago. I don't remember anything about the presence or absence of
figures. Most Italians from Vivaldi's period didn't notate many figures
since it was expected that performers were so familiar with
stereotypical progressions from partimenti that figures were redundant.
I think I still have a PDF of the music. I'll be happy to send you a
copy when I get home. (I'll write in figures if you'd like).


Hi Chris,

I tried sending privately this to your return address, but it bounced.

I'd like to thank you for your extremely useful article in the latest 
LSA Newsletter.  I quite often need to play continuo from this period, 
and it's extremely helpful to learn that I should be playing full chords 
without worrying much about voice leading.


Cheers!

Geoff

--
Geoff Gaherty
Foxmead Observatory
Coldwater, Ontario, Canada
http://www.gaherty.ca
http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/



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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Double Cello Concerto RV 531

[howard posner]

On Sep 1, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com wrote:

 Style and taste question - do you think an archlute or a baroque guitar would 
 be better for this?

Impossible to answer that question in a vacuum.  It depends on your particular 
instruments and ability (is your guitar much louder than your archlute? on 
which instrument are most fluent?), the ensemble you’re playing with (20 modern 
string players? one-to-a-part baroque instruments? are you the only continuo 
player, or is there a harpsichord, organ, harp and 14 theorbos?)


shot in the dark possibility: I gather, from your lack of confidence in your 
ability to figure the part, that your continuo skills are not advanced.  If 
you’re likely to freeze reading figures in the heat of combat, you might 
consider just marking chord names above the strong beats and important changes 
and using the guitar.



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I'm working on it!
   Martyn
 __

   From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
   To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 17:21
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   .And I also tend to agree with you in this case, Martyn (as we hashed
   out here in the past).  However, Eric's article is published, is thus
   something I can cite, and seems relevant to Konstantin's original
   inquiry.  It would be nice to see more published on this specific
   field.
   Best,
   Eugene
   From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 11:30 AM
   To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   Dear Eugene,
   Without wanting to re-open a debate of over 10 years ago, despite Count
   Wrtby's origins I'm a bit sceptical that the German/Bohemian mandora in
   D (the E mandora didn't really surface until later in the century) made
   any significant inroads into Italy in the early 18th century. Further,
   the writing of Vivaldi's 'leuto' parts is, in my view, more suited to a
   rather higher pitched instrument in nominal G (or even A) which is, of
   course, simply the old lute tuning which seems to have persisted in
   Italy through much of the 18th century and is reflected in various
   sources including the Dalla Casa MS and extant instruments made at the
   time as well as in paintings of the period.
   There are also, of course, other works (including the Anon concertos
   from Bob Spencer's collection) which are very similar to the Vivaldi
   and are clearly labelled for archlute.
   But I agree that a small 'mandolin' like instrument playing at pitch is
   unlikely (however tuned).
   regards
   Martyn
   
   From: Braig, Eugene [2]brai...@osu.edu
   To: lute list [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 15:50
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   Greetings Konstantin,
   This topic has received some discussion here in the past, at least
   peripherally.  Searching the archives might reveal some discussion of
   interest.
   I don't think the treble mandore/mandora/mandwr/what-have-you was in
   very widespread use by Vivaldi's time, certainly not in Italian
   places.  In large part, the lute works were dedicated to a Bohemian
   nobleman named Wrtby.  This led Eric Liefeld to speculate that the
   works to designate leuto were intended for a baritone voiced mandora
   from D (Liefeld, E. 2002/2003. Pondering Vivaldi's Leuto. Lute Society
   of America Quarterly 28(1):4-8.).
   On O'Dette's recording of the Vivaldi works with the Parley of
   Instruments (1986, Hyperion CDA66160), he speculated the works to
   designate mandolino to be intended for the five or six course
   mandolino (i.e., [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') played with a plectrum and the
   Bohemian leuto works to be for the same instrument played with the
   fingers.  Personally, given the spread of violins and cello-driven
   basso continuo, I think adding mandolino as soloist to the leuto
   works sounds to crowd too many voices in the treble range.  I prefer to
   hear the leuto works with the lutenist an octave lower than notated,
   a common short hand carried on in guitar music to this day.
   I think the general consensus among those who really care about baroque
   mandolin is that it was probably ordinarily played with the fingers
   until into the classical era.  That is how I play the instrument.
   Unfortunately, most performers who come to baroque incarnations of
   mandolin seem to approach it after having studied the modern mandolin.
   Almost universally, they play it with a plectrum (usually a quill, and
   there are some who argue a quill was never applied to any gut-strung
   mandolin types: that a sliver of cherry would be more appropriate).  In
   spite of the likelihood of period performance practice, recordings of
   baroque mandolins played with the fingers are relatively rare.
   Best,
   Eugene
   -Original Message-
   From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Konstantin
   Shchenikov
   Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 2:51 AM
   To: lute list
   Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi solo lute
 Dear friends!
 I am curious abour mandore (treble lute) as solo instrument for
   Vivaldi
 concertos and trio sonatas with liuto obligato. Have anyone an
 experience with it?
 Could you point me to some research?
 I am especially interesting about how far it from (or how close to)
 baroque mandolin? Makes it sence to use baroque mandolin instead of
 mandore? I've read somewhere that renaissance mandore technique was
 quite similar to renaissance lute and fingers were in used, not
 plectrum. What's your suggestions about 18 century? Could I use
   fingers
 or have to play with plectrum?
 And the last, do you know who can

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Braig, Eugene]

   Vivaldi clearly specified mandolino for the small lute relative
   common to his time and place when he intended it.  If he'd intended
   that octave in RV 540, I suspect he would have specified mandolino
   there as well.  He simply did not.
   RV 540 is a special case.  It was written specifically for a visit to
   Venice by the electoral prince at Dresden, and as such, could be argued
   it was likely intended for performance by S. L. Weiss who was famously
   employed by that court.  I think it likely Weiss would have played it
   on a D-minor lute.  That said, Johann Adolph Hasse also worked at the
   Dresden court and wrote a decent concerto for mandolino (as discussed
   here: g-b-e'-a'-d''-g'').
   While I don't think it likely that RV 540 was originally intended for
   the mandolino, that's no reason to not perform it on that instrument,
   enjoy doing so, and name it an arrangement.  If you do decide to play
   it on that instrument, feel free to play it with the fingers.
   Best,
   Eugene
 __

   From: Konstantin Shchenikov [konstantin.n...@gmail.com]
   Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 2:34 AM
   To: Braig, Eugene
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   Thank you all for your interesring comments!
   Just to clarify, I played RV 93 and RV 540 several times on my archlute
   and it was OK as for me as for the other musicians and listeners. But
   now an ensemble engaged me for RV 540 and music director mad about
   hearing the lute in the same octave with viola d'amore because in his
   opinion music very close to double concertos for 2 violins and here
   should be the similar - two instruments in the same octave.
   That's why I start to look for some researches and papers.
   Thank you, Eugene, I've found mail archives and it makes clear some
   rough spots for me.
   Sincerely yours,
   Konstantin.
   2014-06-04 20:23 GMT+04:00 Braig, Eugene [1]brai...@osu.edu:

 Indeed.  He now concertizes playing Vivaldi's lute works on
 archlute.
 Eugene

   -Original Message-
   From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of howard posner
   Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 11:30 AM

   To: lute list
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

   On Jun 4, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Braig, Eugene [4]brai...@osu.edu wrote:

On O'Dette's recording of the Vivaldi works with the Parley of
   Instruments (1986, Hyperion CDA66160), he speculated the works to
   designate mandolino to be intended for the five or six course
   mandolino (i.e., [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') played with a plectrum and the
   Bohemian leuto works to be for the same instrument played with the
   fingers.

   Within a few years after making that recording, Paul no longer thought
   that the Vivaldi works were for a treble instrument.

   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:brai...@osu.edu
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Braig, Eugene]

   We've discussed these before as well, but for the benefit of Konstantin
   et alia . . .
   Here is a pair of beautiful pieces by Giuseppe Presbler clearly built
   as a matched set and housed by the US's Metropolitan Museum of art:
   [1]http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search?wh
   at=Musical+instruments|Bonewho=Giuseppe+Presblerpg=1
   I was privileged to be able to personally inspect and measure these
   pieces before they went on display for the public.  The smaller piece
   conforms to typical expectations of the period's mandolino.  The Met
   catalogues the larger as mandola in line with recent literature like
   Morey or Tyler  Sparks.  However, there is also a certain elegance in
   naming it liuto as a diminutive of the arciliuto.  As such, with a
   likely range of open strings of G to g' (in this case with one added
   bass), one octave below mandolino (although I would expect with a more
   lute-like positioning of the interval of a third), it makes a tempting
   alternative for Vivaldi's leuto.
   Best,
   Eugene
 __

   From: Martyn Hodgson [hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 2:03 AM
   To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   I'm working on it!
   Martyn
 __

   From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
   To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 17:21
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   .And I also tend to agree with you in this case, Martyn (as we hashed
   out here in the past).  However, Eric's article is published, is thus
   something I can cite, and seems relevant to Konstantin's original
   inquiry.  It would be nice to see more published on this specific
   field.
   Best,
   Eugene
   From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 11:30 AM
   To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   Dear Eugene,
   Without wanting to re-open a debate of over 10 years ago, despite Count
   Wrtby's origins I'm a bit sceptical that the German/Bohemian mandora in
   D (the E mandora didn't really surface until later in the century) made
   any significant inroads into Italy in the early 18th century. Further,
   the writing of Vivaldi's 'leuto' parts is, in my view, more suited to a
   rather higher pitched instrument in nominal G (or even A) which is, of
   course, simply the old lute tuning which seems to have persisted in
   Italy through much of the 18th century and is reflected in various
   sources including the Dalla Casa MS and extant instruments made at the
   time as well as in paintings of the period.
   There are also, of course, other works (including the Anon concertos
   from Bob Spencer's collection) which are very similar to the Vivaldi
   and are clearly labelled for archlute.
   But I agree that a small 'mandolin' like instrument playing at pitch is
   unlikely (however tuned).
   regards
   Martyn
   
   From: Braig, Eugene [3]brai...@osu.edu
   To: lute list [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 15:50
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   Greetings Konstantin,
   This topic has received some discussion here in the past, at least
   peripherally.  Searching the archives might reveal some discussion of
   interest.
   I don't think the treble mandore/mandora/mandwr/what-have-you was in
   very widespread use by Vivaldi's time, certainly not in Italian
   places.  In large part, the lute works were dedicated to a Bohemian
   nobleman named Wrtby.  This led Eric Liefeld to speculate that the
   works to designate leuto were intended for a baritone voiced mandora
   from D (Liefeld, E. 2002/2003. Pondering Vivaldi's Leuto. Lute Society
   of America Quarterly 28(1):4-8.).
   On O'Dette's recording of the Vivaldi works with the Parley of
   Instruments (1986, Hyperion CDA66160), he speculated the works to
   designate mandolino to be intended for the five or six course
   mandolino (i.e., [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') played with a plectrum and the
   Bohemian leuto works to be for the same instrument played with the
   fingers.  Personally, given the spread of violins and cello-driven
   basso continuo, I think adding mandolino as soloist to the leuto
   works sounds to crowd too many voices in the treble range.  I prefer to
   hear the leuto works with the lutenist an octave lower than notated,
   a common short hand carried on in guitar music to this day.
   I think the general consensus among those who really care about baroque
   mandolin is that it was probably ordinarily played with the fingers
   until into the classical era.  That is how I play the instrument.
   Unfortunately, most performers who come to baroque incarnations of
   mandolin seem to approach it after having studied

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Yes indeed Eugene,
   This is one of the very instruments I had in mind when earlier
   referring to extant Italian instruments newly made in the 18th century.
   As you suggest, the identification of it as a 'mandola' has no real
   basis: it is a leuto (or liuto) and I have suggested it is precisely
   the type of instrument for the Vivaldi (and other) unless additional
   basses are required when an arciliuto is necessary. But note paintings
   of the period often show just 7 or 8 course 'lutes' in Italy.
   A particular feature of 18th century Italian 'lutes' which
   distinguishes them from mandoras and the like is the length of the
   neck: usually only allowing 7 or 8 fret spaces whereas the mandoras
   generally allow 9 or 10. Roses are also often inset in extant Italian
   lutes of the period - tho some late mandora/gallichon roses are too so
   this isn't always reliable as a distinctive identifier.
   Martyn
 __

   From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
   To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; lute list
   lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Thursday, 5 June 2014, 13:04
   Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   We've discussed these before as well, but for the benefit of Konstantin
   et alia . . .
   Here is a pair of beautiful pieces by Giuseppe Presbler clearly built
   as a matched set and housed by the US's Metropolitan Museum of art:
   [1]http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search?wh
   at=Musical+instruments|Bonewho=Giuseppe+Presblerpg=1
   I was privileged to be able to personally inspect and measure these
   pieces before they went on display for the public.  The smaller piece
   conforms to typical expectations of the period's mandolino.  The Met
   catalogues the larger as mandola in line with recent literature like
   Morey or Tyler  Sparks.  However, there is also a certain elegance in
   naming it liuto as a diminutive of the arciliuto.  As such, with a
   likely range of open strings of G to g' (in this case with one added
   bass), one octave below mandolino (although I would expect with a more
   lute-like positioning of the interval of a third), it makes a tempting
   alternative for Vivaldi's leuto.
   Best,
   Eugene
 __

   From: Martyn Hodgson [hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 2:03 AM
   To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   I'm working on it!
   Martyn
 __

   From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
   To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 17:21
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   .And I also tend to agree with you in this case, Martyn (as we hashed
   out here in the past).  However, Eric's article is published, is thus
   something I can cite, and seems relevant to Konstantin's original
   inquiry.  It would be nice to see more published on this specific
   field.
   Best,
   Eugene
   From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 11:30 AM
   To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   Dear Eugene,
   Without wanting to re-open a debate of over 10 years ago, despite Count
   Wrtby's origins I'm a bit sceptical that the German/Bohemian mandora in
   D (the E mandora didn't really surface until later in the century) made
   any significant inroads into Italy in the early 18th century. Further,
   the writing of Vivaldi's 'leuto' parts is, in my view, more suited to a
   rather higher pitched instrument in nominal G (or even A) which is, of
   course, simply the old lute tuning which seems to have persisted in
   Italy through much of the 18th century and is reflected in various
   sources including the Dalla Casa MS and extant instruments made at the
   time as well as in paintings of the period.
   There are also, of course, other works (including the Anon concertos
   from Bob Spencer's collection) which are very similar to the Vivaldi
   and are clearly labelled for archlute.
   But I agree that a small 'mandolin' like instrument playing at pitch is
   unlikely (however tuned).
   regards
   Martyn
   
   From: Braig, Eugene [3]brai...@osu.edu
   To: lute list [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 15:50
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   Greetings Konstantin,
   This topic has received some discussion here in the past, at least
   peripherally.  Searching the archives might reveal some discussion of
   interest.
   I don't think the treble mandore/mandora/mandwr/what-have-you was in
   very widespread use by Vivaldi's time, certainly not in Italian
   places.  In large part, the lute works were dedicated to a Bohemian
   nobleman named Wrtby.  This led Eric Liefeld to speculate

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Braig, Eugene]

Furthermore, there does seem to be some precedence for mandola simply being 
used to describe the six-course mandolino when that low g was a relatively new 
feature.

For example, Dalla Casa's (1759) archlute book includes a Scala per Mandolino 
for interpreting tablature; open courses are given as b-e'-a'-d''-g''.  The 
book also includes four works for mandolino with arcileuto accompaniment as 
well as one unattributed three-movement Suonata . . . a Mandola e Basso del 
Arcileuto.  It would seem very odd to me to write a sonata specifically for 
mandola with archlute in a subservient accompaniment role (rather than an 
equal-footing duo role) if the mandola was taken to have the same range as the 
archlute's fretted strings given the similarity in timbre and technique.  It 
seems more likely that the mandola occupied an octave-higher range, exactly as 
notated.  In notation, the mandola work's range differs from those for 
mandolino only in having a treble line that extends below b but never below g.  
This obviously falls outside the range for five-course mandolino given by the 
manuscript, but is perfectly in line with a typical six-cours!
 e mandolino.

The Stradivari pattern labeled Musura del mandola granda was also what would 
be considered mandolin-sized.  The length of the entire neck to the outermost 
edge of the partially scrolled pegbox is 375 mm.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 8:38 AM
To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

   Yes indeed Eugene,
   This is one of the very instruments I had in mind when earlier
   referring to extant Italian instruments newly made in the 18th century.
   As you suggest, the identification of it as a 'mandola' has no real
   basis: it is a leuto (or liuto) and I have suggested it is precisely
   the type of instrument for the Vivaldi (and other) unless additional
   basses are required when an arciliuto is necessary. But note paintings
   of the period often show just 7 or 8 course 'lutes' in Italy.
   A particular feature of 18th century Italian 'lutes' which
   distinguishes them from mandoras and the like is the length of the
   neck: usually only allowing 7 or 8 fret spaces whereas the mandoras
   generally allow 9 or 10. Roses are also often inset in extant Italian
   lutes of the period - tho some late mandora/gallichon roses are too so
   this isn't always reliable as a distinctive identifier.
   Martyn
 __

   From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
   To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; lute list
   lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Thursday, 5 June 2014, 13:04
   Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   We've discussed these before as well, but for the benefit of Konstantin
   et alia . . .
   Here is a pair of beautiful pieces by Giuseppe Presbler clearly built
   as a matched set and housed by the US's Metropolitan Museum of Art:
   [1]http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search?wh
   at=Musical+instruments|Bonewho=Giuseppe+Presblerpg=1
   I was privileged to be able to personally inspect and measure these
   pieces before they went on display for the public.  The smaller piece
   conforms to typical expectations of the period's mandolino.  The Met
   catalogues the larger as mandola in line with recent literature like
   Morey or Tyler  Sparks.  However, there is also a certain elegance in
   naming it liuto as a diminutive of the arciliuto.  As such, with a
   likely range of open strings of G to g' (in this case with one added
   bass), one octave below mandolino (although I would expect with a more
   lute-like positioning of the interval of a third), it makes a tempting
   alternative for Vivaldi's leuto.
   Best,
   Eugene
 __

   From: Martyn Hodgson [hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 2:03 AM
   To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   I'm working on it!
   Martyn
 __

   From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
   To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 17:21
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   .And I also tend to agree with you in this case, Martyn (as we hashed
   out here in the past).  However, Eric's article is published, is thus
   something I can cite, and seems relevant to Konstantin's original
   inquiry.  It would be nice to see more published on this specific
   field.
   Best,
   Eugene
   From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 11:30 AM
   To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   Dear Eugene,
   Without wanting to re-open a debate of over 10 years ago

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Braig, Eugene]

Hideki is a good guy.  He used a six-course mandolino played punteado to 
recorded all the mandolino and mandola works (plus two extra works for good 
measure) compiled in Dalla Casa's book (1759).  John Schneiderman provided the 
accompaniment on archlute.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Ed Durbrow
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 7:50 PM
To: LuteNet list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

You should ask Hideki Yamaya. He's done quite a bit with it. I can't keep all 
the names and instruments straight in my mind, but I think you should ask 
Hideki Yamaya. He's done quite a bit with such instruments. 
http://www.hyamaya.com

 
On Jun 4, 2014, at 3:51 PM, Konstantin Shchenikov konstantin.n...@gmail.com 
wrote:

   Dear friends!
   I am curious abour mandore (treble lute) as solo instrument for Vivaldi
   concertos and trio sonatas with liuto obligato. Have anyone an
   experience with it?
   Could you point me to some research?
   I am especially interesting about how far it from (or how close to)
   baroque mandolin? Makes it sence to use baroque mandolin instead of
   mandore? I've read somewhere that renaissance mandore technique was
   quite similar to renaissance lute and fingers were in used, not
   plectrum. What's your suggestions about 18 century? Could I use fingers
   or have to play with plectrum?
   And the last, do you know who can built such a thing?
   And any other information is very appreciated!
   Greetings from St.Petersburg,
   Konstantin
 
   --
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at 
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/





--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Braig, Eugene]

Greetings Konstantin,

This topic has received some discussion here in the past, at least 
peripherally.  Searching the archives might reveal some discussion of interest.

I don't think the treble mandore/mandora/mandwr/what-have-you was in very 
widespread use by Vivaldi's time, certainly not in Italian places.  In large 
part, the lute works were dedicated to a Bohemian nobleman named Wrtby.  This 
led Eric Liefeld to speculate that the works to designate leuto were intended 
for a baritone voiced mandora from D (Liefeld, E. 2002/2003. Pondering 
Vivaldi's Leuto. Lute Society of America Quarterly 28(1):4-8.).

On O'Dette's recording of the Vivaldi works with the Parley of Instruments 
(1986, Hyperion CDA66160), he speculated the works to designate mandolino to 
be intended for the five or six course mandolino (i.e., [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') 
played with a plectrum and the Bohemian leuto works to be for the same 
instrument played with the fingers.  Personally, given the spread of violins 
and cello-driven basso continuo, I think adding mandolino as soloist to the 
leuto works sounds to crowd too many voices in the treble range.  I prefer to 
hear the leuto works with the lutenist an octave lower than notated, a common 
short hand carried on in guitar music to this day.

I think the general consensus among those who really care about baroque 
mandolin is that it was probably ordinarily played with the fingers until into 
the classical era.  That is how I play the instrument.  Unfortunately, most 
performers who come to baroque incarnations of mandolin seem to approach it 
after having studied the modern mandolin.  Almost universally, they play it 
with a plectrum (usually a quill, and there are some who argue a quill was 
never applied to any gut-strung mandolin types: that a sliver of cherry would 
be more appropriate).  In spite of the likelihood of period performance 
practice, recordings of baroque mandolins played with the fingers are 
relatively rare.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Konstantin Shchenikov
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 2:51 AM
To: lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi solo lute

   Dear friends!
   I am curious abour mandore (treble lute) as solo instrument for Vivaldi
   concertos and trio sonatas with liuto obligato. Have anyone an
   experience with it?
   Could you point me to some research?
   I am especially interesting about how far it from (or how close to)
   baroque mandolin? Makes it sence to use baroque mandolin instead of
   mandore? I've read somewhere that renaissance mandore technique was
   quite similar to renaissance lute and fingers were in used, not
   plectrum. What's your suggestions about 18 century? Could I use fingers
   or have to play with plectrum?
   And the last, do you know who can built such a thing?
   And any other information is very appreciated!
   Greetings from St.Petersburg,
   Konstantin

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[howard posner]

On Jun 4, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu wrote:

 On O'Dette's recording of the Vivaldi works with the Parley of Instruments 
 (1986, Hyperion CDA66160), he speculated the works to designate mandolino 
 to be intended for the five or six course mandolino (i.e., 
 [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') played with a plectrum and the Bohemian leuto works to 
 be for the same instrument played with the fingers.

Within a few years after making that recording, Paul no longer thought that the 
Vivaldi works were for a treble instrument. 



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Eugene,
   Without wanting to re-open a debate of over 10 years ago, despite Count
   Wrtby's origins I'm a bit sceptical that the German/Bohemian mandora in
   D (the E mandora didn't really surface until later in the century) made
   any significant inroads into Italy in the early 18th century. Further,
   the writing of Vivaldi's 'leuto' parts is, in my view, more suited to a
   rather higher pitched instrument in nominal G (or even A) which is, of
   course, simply the old lute tuning which seems to have persisted in
   Italy through much of the 18th century and is reflected in various
   sources including the Dalla Casa MS and extant instruments made at the
   time as well as in paintings of the period.
   There are also, of course, other works (including the Anon concertos
   from Bob Spencer's collection) which are very similar to the Vivaldi
   and are clearly labelled for archlute.
   But I agree that a small 'mandolin' like instrument playing at pitch is
   unlikely (however tuned).
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
   To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 15:50
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   Greetings Konstantin,
   This topic has received some discussion here in the past, at least
   peripherally.  Searching the archives might reveal some discussion of
   interest.
   I don't think the treble mandore/mandora/mandwr/what-have-you was in
   very widespread use by Vivaldi's time, certainly not in Italian
   places.  In large part, the lute works were dedicated to a Bohemian
   nobleman named Wrtby.  This led Eric Liefeld to speculate that the
   works to designate leuto were intended for a baritone voiced mandora
   from D (Liefeld, E. 2002/2003. Pondering Vivaldi's Leuto. Lute Society
   of America Quarterly 28(1):4-8.).
   On O'Dette's recording of the Vivaldi works with the Parley of
   Instruments (1986, Hyperion CDA66160), he speculated the works to
   designate mandolino to be intended for the five or six course
   mandolino (i.e., [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') played with a plectrum and the
   Bohemian leuto works to be for the same instrument played with the
   fingers.  Personally, given the spread of violins and cello-driven
   basso continuo, I think adding mandolino as soloist to the leuto
   works sounds to crowd too many voices in the treble range.  I prefer to
   hear the leuto works with the lutenist an octave lower than notated,
   a common short hand carried on in guitar music to this day.
   I think the general consensus among those who really care about baroque
   mandolin is that it was probably ordinarily played with the fingers
   until into the classical era.  That is how I play the instrument.
   Unfortunately, most performers who come to baroque incarnations of
   mandolin seem to approach it after having studied the modern mandolin.
   Almost universally, they play it with a plectrum (usually a quill, and
   there are some who argue a quill was never applied to any gut-strung
   mandolin types: that a sliver of cherry would be more appropriate).  In
   spite of the likelihood of period performance practice, recordings of
   baroque mandolins played with the fingers are relatively rare.
   Best,
   Eugene
   -Original Message-
   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Konstantin
   Shchenikov
   Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 2:51 AM
   To: lute list
   Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi solo lute
 Dear friends!
 I am curious abour mandore (treble lute) as solo instrument for
   Vivaldi
 concertos and trio sonatas with liuto obligato. Have anyone an
 experience with it?
 Could you point me to some research?
 I am especially interesting about how far it from (or how close to)
 baroque mandolin? Makes it sence to use baroque mandolin instead of
 mandore? I've read somewhere that renaissance mandore technique was
 quite similar to renaissance lute and fingers were in used, not
 plectrum. What's your suggestions about 18 century? Could I use
   fingers
 or have to play with plectrum?
 And the last, do you know who can built such a thing?
 And any other information is very appreciated!
 Greetings from St.Petersburg,
 Konstantin
 --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Braig, Eugene]

Indeed.  He now concertizes playing Vivaldi's lute works on archlute.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
howard posner
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 11:30 AM
To: lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

On Jun 4, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu wrote:

 On O'Dette's recording of the Vivaldi works with the Parley of Instruments 
 (1986, Hyperion CDA66160), he speculated the works to designate mandolino 
 to be intended for the five or six course mandolino (i.e., 
 [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') played with a plectrum and the Bohemian leuto works to 
 be for the same instrument played with the fingers.

Within a few years after making that recording, Paul no longer thought that the 
Vivaldi works were for a treble instrument. 



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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Braig, Eugene]

.And I also tend to agree with you in this case, Martyn (as we hashed out here 
in the past).  However, Eric's article is published, is thus something I can 
cite, and seems relevant to Konstantin's original inquiry.  It would be nice to 
see more published on this specific field.

Best,
Eugene


From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 11:30 AM
To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

Dear Eugene,

Without wanting to re-open a debate of over 10 years ago, despite Count Wrtby's 
origins I'm a bit sceptical that the German/Bohemian mandora in D (the E 
mandora didn't really surface until later in the century) made any significant 
inroads into Italy in the early 18th century. Further, the writing of Vivaldi's 
'leuto' parts is, in my view, more suited to a rather higher pitched instrument 
in nominal G (or even A) which is, of course, simply the old lute tuning which 
seems to have persisted in Italy through much of the 18th century and is 
reflected in various sources including the Dalla Casa MS and extant instruments 
made at the time as well as in paintings of the period. 

There are also, of course, other works (including the Anon concertos from Bob 
Spencer's collection) which are very similar to the Vivaldi and are clearly 
labelled for archlute.

But I agree that a small 'mandolin' like instrument playing at pitch is 
unlikely (however tuned).

regards

Martyn


From: Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu
To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 15:50
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

Greetings Konstantin,

This topic has received some discussion here in the past, at least 
peripherally.  Searching the archives might reveal some discussion of interest.

I don't think the treble mandore/mandora/mandwr/what-have-you was in very 
widespread use by Vivaldi's time, certainly not in Italian places.  In large 
part, the lute works were dedicated to a Bohemian nobleman named Wrtby.  This 
led Eric Liefeld to speculate that the works to designate leuto were intended 
for a baritone voiced mandora from D (Liefeld, E. 2002/2003. Pondering 
Vivaldi's Leuto. Lute Society of America Quarterly 28(1):4-8.).

On O'Dette's recording of the Vivaldi works with the Parley of Instruments 
(1986, Hyperion CDA66160), he speculated the works to designate mandolino to 
be intended for the five or six course mandolino (i.e., [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') 
played with a plectrum and the Bohemian leuto works to be for the same 
instrument played with the fingers.  Personally, given the spread of violins 
and cello-driven basso continuo, I think adding mandolino as soloist to the 
leuto works sounds to crowd too many voices in the treble range.  I prefer to 
hear the leuto works with the lutenist an octave lower than notated, a common 
short hand carried on in guitar music to this day.

I think the general consensus among those who really care about baroque 
mandolin is that it was probably ordinarily played with the fingers until into 
the classical era.  That is how I play the instrument.  Unfortunately, most 
performers who come to baroque incarnations of mandolin seem to approach it 
after having studied the modern mandolin.  Almost universally, they play it 
with a plectrum (usually a quill, and there are some who argue a quill was 
never applied to any gut-strung mandolin types: that a sliver of cherry would 
be more appropriate).  In spite of the likelihood of period performance 
practice, recordings of baroque mandolins played with the fingers are 
relatively rare.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Konstantin Shchenikov
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 2:51 AM
To: lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi solo lute

  Dear friends!
  I am curious abour mandore (treble lute) as solo instrument for Vivaldi
  concertos and trio sonatas with liuto obligato. Have anyone an
  experience with it?
  Could you point me to some research?
  I am especially interesting about how far it from (or how close to)
  baroque mandolin? Makes it sence to use baroque mandolin instead of
  mandore? I've read somewhere that renaissance mandore technique was
  quite similar to renaissance lute and fingers were in used, not
  plectrum. What's your suggestions about 18 century? Could I use fingers
  or have to play with plectrum?
  And the last, do you know who can built such a thing?
  And any other information is very appreciated!
  Greetings from St.Petersburg,
  Konstantin

  --


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Ed Durbrow]

You should ask Hideki Yamaya. He’s done quite a bit with it. I can’t keep all 
the names and instruments straight in my mind, but I think you should ask 
Hideki Yamaya. He’s done quite a bit with such instruments. 
http://www.hyamaya.com

 
On Jun 4, 2014, at 3:51 PM, Konstantin Shchenikov konstantin.n...@gmail.com 
wrote:

   Dear friends!
   I am curious abour mandore (treble lute) as solo instrument for Vivaldi
   concertos and trio sonatas with liuto obligato. Have anyone an
   experience with it?
   Could you point me to some research?
   I am especially interesting about how far it from (or how close to)
   baroque mandolin? Makes it sence to use baroque mandolin instead of
   mandore? I've read somewhere that renaissance mandore technique was
   quite similar to renaissance lute and fingers were in used, not
   plectrum. What's your suggestions about 18 century? Could I use fingers
   or have to play with plectrum?
   And the last, do you know who can built such a thing?
   And any other information is very appreciated!
   Greetings from St.Petersburg,
   Konstantin
 
   --
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/





--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Arthur Ness]

   Dear Eugene,



   I did not say RV 532 (G major) and RV 558 (C major) are the same work.
   The ISMLP editor alleges a second version of RV 532. Take a look at
   his/her entries for RV 532 and scroll down to the red band.  There the
   ISMLP editor explains that RV 532 appears with an alternate title,
   citing H. C. Robbins Landon, Vivaldi: Voice of the Baroque (Chicago,
   1996), page 72.  Here is what R Landon wrote:



  Everyone has supposed that Marcello was lampooning
   Vivaldi's extravagantly orchestrated

   concertos, such as the 'Concerto con Due Flauti, Due Teorbi,
   Due Mandolini, Due Salmo,

   Due Violini in Tromba Marina et un Violoncello' (RV 532),
   performed at the Piet`a . . . in 1740.



   Is Robbins Landon confused? RV 558 also uses pairs of flauti, teorbi,
   mandolini, salme, violini in tromba marina and a 'cello.  Hardly every
   imaginable solist, as you suggest (cf. RV 555).



   Vivaldi also composed three concertos for violino in tromba marina (RV
   211, 311 and 313).  This fiddle-like instrument, which was popular at
   the Piet`a, has three strings tied to a floating bridge, which produces
   a raspy sound according to Michael Talbot.  There are several articles
   detailing with Vivaldi's use of exotic musical instruments.  Check
   JSTOR.



   ajn.

   - Original Message -
   From: Braig, Eugene [1]brai...@osu.edu
   To: Lute List [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 2:50 PM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

FYI, the concerto in G for two mandolins (RV 532) is a different work
   than the truly grosso grosso in C naming every imaginable soloist (RV
   558).
   
Best,
Eugene
   
-Original Message-
From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   On Behalf Of Arthur Ness
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 1:15 PM
To: Mayes, Joseph; Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
   
It's available in the International Music Library Project (EU):
   
   
   [4]http://imslp.org/index.php?titleEtegory:Vivaldi%2C%20Antoniofrom=C
   
   
   [5]http://imslp.eu/download.php?file=files/imglnks/euimg/8/81/IMSLP1349
   24-PMLP237520-Vivaldi_Concerto_2mandolins_RV532.pdf
   
This score is clearer and has PARTS:
   
   
   [6]http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/0/0e/IMSLP288061-PMLP23752
   0-Concerto-2Bandolins.pdf
   
But notice the original instrumentation includes 2 Salmo
   (=chalumeaux),
2 theorbos and the violins are designated violini in tromba
   marina.  (See the red stripe.)  The comment that the Malipiero score
   is urtext is misuse of the term!
   
I have never discovered convincing explanation about what violini in
   tromba marina are.  I know what a tromba marina is, but violini?  The
   best explanation is that one plays the notes in harmonics. In the solo
   sections??? Any other explanation?  I don't buy the explanation by
    that they are to be played on board a ship.g
   
Both are the Malipiero edition and I didn't see figures.  But he has
   realized the continuo in the organ part and that will assist to
   determine the harmonies.  Malipiero, the usual Collected Edition of
   Vivaldi's instrumental works, is over edited in my opinion.  In this
   case, given the original intrumentation, it is under-edited.g
   
Best wishes to you and  Kathleen,
   
Arthur
- Original Message -
From: Mayes, Joseph [7]ma...@rowan.edu
To: G. Crona [8]kalei...@gmail.com; Lutelist
   [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 9:06 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi
   
   
Two of my students are playing the G major concerto for two
   mandolins.
They'd like me to play continuo on my archlute. Does anyone know
   where a
bass part (with or without figures) could be obtained?
   
Thanks,
   
Joseph Mayes
   
   
   
To get on or off this list see list information at
[10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   
   
   
   
   
--

References

   1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu
   2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://imslp.org/index.php?title%C3%8Ategory:Vivaldi%2C%20Antoniofrom=C
   5. 
http://imslp.eu/download.php?file=files/imglnks/euimg/8/81/IMSLP134924-PMLP237520-Vivaldi_Concerto_2mandolins_RV532.pdf
   6. 
http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/0/0e/IMSLP288061-PMLP237520-Concerto-2Bandolins.pdf
   7. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu
   8. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
   9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Braig, Eugene]

   Indeed.  every imaginable soloist was, of course, simple exaggeration
   for dramatic effect.  I have a pretty substantial imagination, and
   there are a lot of instrument types out there.


   Be well,

   Eugene




   From: Arthur Ness [mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net]
   Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 5:47 PM
   To: Braig, Eugene; Lute List
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi


   Dear Eugene,


   I did not say RV 532 (G major) and RV 558 (C major) are the same work.
   The ISMLP editor alleges a second version of RV 532. Take a look at
   his/her entries for RV 532 and scroll down to the red band.  There the
   ISMLP editor explains that RV 532 appears with an alternate title,
   citing H. C. Robbins Landon, Vivaldi: Voice of the Baroque (Chicago,
   1996), page 72.  Here is what R Landon wrote:


  Everyone has supposed that Marcello was lampooning
   Vivaldi's extravagantly orchestrated

   concertos, such as the 'Concerto con Due Flauti, Due Teorbi,
   Due Mandolini, Due Salmo,

   Due Violini in Tromba Marina et un Violoncello' (RV 532),
   performed at the Piet`a . . . in 1740.


   Is Robbins Landon confused? RV 558 also uses pairs of flauti, teorbi,
   mandolini, salme, violini in tromba marina and a 'cello.  Hardly every
   imaginable solist, as you suggest (cf. RV 555).


   Vivaldi also composed three concertos for violino in tromba marina (RV
   211, 311 and 313).  This fiddle-like instrument, which was popular at
   the Piet`a, has three strings tied to a floating bridge, which produces
   a raspy sound according to Michael Talbot.  There are several articles
   detailing with Vivaldi's use of exotic musical instruments.  Check
   JSTOR.


   ajn.

   - Original Message -

   From: Braig, Eugene [1]brai...@osu.edu

   To: Lute List [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

   Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 2:50 PM

   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi


FYI, the concerto in G for two mandolins (RV 532) is a different work
   than the truly grosso grosso in C naming every imaginable soloist (RV
   558).
   
Best,
Eugene
   
-Original Message-
From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [[4]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Arthur Ness
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 1:15 PM
To: Mayes, Joseph; Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
   
It's available in the International Music Library Project (EU):
   
   
   [5]http://imslp.org/index.php?titleEtegory:Vivaldi%2C%20Antoniofrom=C
   
   
   [6]http://imslp.eu/download.php?file=files/imglnks/euimg/8/81/IMSLP1349
   24-PMLP237520-Vivaldi_Concerto_2mandolins_RV532.pdf
   
This score is clearer and has PARTS:
   
   
   [7]http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/0/0e/IMSLP288061-PMLP23752
   0-Concerto-2Bandolins.pdf
   
But notice the original instrumentation includes 2 Salmo
   (=chalumeaux),
2 theorbos and the violins are designated violini in tromba
   marina.  (See the red stripe.)  The comment that the Malipiero score
   is urtext is misuse of the term!
   
I have never discovered convincing explanation about what violini in
   tromba marina are.  I know what a tromba marina is, but violini?  The
   best explanation is that one plays the notes in harmonics. In the solo
   sections??? Any other explanation?  I don't buy the explanation by
    that they are to be played on board a ship.g
   
Both are the Malipiero edition and I didn't see figures.  But he has
   realized the continuo in the organ part and that will assist to
   determine the harmonies.  Malipiero, the usual Collected Edition of
   Vivaldi's instrumental works, is over edited in my opinion.  In this
   case, given the original intrumentation, it is under-edited.g
   
Best wishes to you and  Kathleen,
   
Arthur
- Original Message -
From: Mayes, Joseph [8]ma...@rowan.edu
To: G. Crona [9]kalei...@gmail.com; Lutelist
   [10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 9:06 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi
   
   
Two of my students are playing the G major concerto for two
   mandolins.
They'd like me to play continuo on my archlute. Does anyone know
   where a
bass part (with or without figures) could be obtained?
   
Thanks,
   
Joseph Mayes
   
   
   
To get on or off this list see list information at
[11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   
   
   
   
   
   

   --

References

   1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu
   2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. http://imslp.org/index.php?title%C3%8Ategory:Vivaldi%2C%20Antoniofrom=C
   6. 
http://imslp.eu/download.php?file=files/imglnks/euimg/8/81/IMSLP134924-PMLP237520-Vivaldi_Concerto_2mandolins_RV532.pdf
   7. 
http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/0/0e/IMSLP288061-PMLP237520-Concerto-2Bandolins.pdf
   8. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu
   9. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
  10

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[howard posner]

Arthur Ness wrote:

  Vivaldi also composed three concertos for violino in tromba marina (RV
   211, 311 and 313).  This fiddle-like instrument, which was popular at
   the Piet`a, has three strings tied to a floating bridge, which produces
   a raspy sound according to Michael Talbot. 

The fundamentals tend to sound low and raspy, but the harmonics have a muffled 
brassy sound, hence the tromba.  It can sound a bit hurdygurdyish. There are 
some Youtube tromba marina videos, but they tend to be unimpressive either in 
playing or recording.  You might start here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHWbJZjZMPs

 There are several articles 
  detailing with Vivaldi's use of exotic musical instruments.

I wouldn't confuse violino in tromba marina with an actual tromba marina, an 
instrument not likely to be able to get the notes.  We don't actually know what 
Vivaldi meant by violino in tromba marina,  but the most likely meaning is 
violin to which something has been done to make it sound more like a tromba 
marina.  One solution is to put something on the bridge to produce a bit of 
buzz.  You can see Europa Galante's two solo violins use aluminum foil here in 
R 558, the very concerto we have not been discussing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9QQQ0CU3CE
--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Braig, Eugene]

Good luck at it, Joe.  Can you share what mandolin type(s) will be featured in 
solos?  Any Youtubing planned to come of it?

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Bernd Haegemann
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 3:08 AM
To: Mayes, Joseph
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

perhaps here?

`http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_2_Mandolins_in_G_major,_RV_532_(Vivaldi,_Antonio)
 
http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_2_Mandolins_in_G_major,_RV_532_%28Vivaldi,_Antonio%29



Am 13.10.2013 03:06, schrieb Mayes, Joseph:
 Two of my students are playing the G major concerto for two mandolins. They'd 
 like me to play continuo on my archlute. Does anyone know where a bass part 
 (with or without figures) could be obtained?

 Thanks,

 Joseph Mayes



 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Braig, Eugene]

FYI, the concerto in G for two mandolins (RV 532) is a different work than the 
truly grosso grosso in C naming every imaginable soloist (RV 558).

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Arthur Ness
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 1:15 PM
To: Mayes, Joseph; Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

It's available in the International Music Library Project (EU):

http://imslp.org/index.php?title=Category:Vivaldi%2C%20Antoniofrom=C

http://imslp.eu/download.php?file=files/imglnks/euimg/8/81/IMSLP134924-PMLP237520-Vivaldi_Concerto_2mandolins_RV532.pdf

This score is clearer and has PARTS:

http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/0/0e/IMSLP288061-PMLP237520-Concerto-2Bandolins.pdf

But notice the original instrumentation includes 2 Salmo (=chalumeaux),
2 theorbos and the violins are designated violini in tromba marina.  (See the 
red stripe.)  The comment that the Malipiero score is urtext is misuse of the 
term!

I have never discovered convincing explanation about what violini in tromba 
marina are.  I know what a tromba marina is, but violini?  The best 
explanation is that one plays the notes in harmonics. In the solo sections??? 
Any other explanation?  I don't buy the explanation by  that they are to 
be played on board a ship.g

Both are the Malipiero edition and I didn't see figures.  But he has realized 
the continuo in the organ part and that will assist to determine the harmonies. 
 Malipiero, the usual Collected Edition of  Vivaldi's instrumental works, is 
over edited in my opinion.  In this case, given the original intrumentation, 
it is under-edited.g

Best wishes to you and  Kathleen,

Arthur
- Original Message -
From: Mayes, Joseph ma...@rowan.edu
To: G. Crona kalei...@gmail.com; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 9:06 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi


 Two of my students are playing the G major concerto for two mandolins.
 They'd like me to play continuo on my archlute. Does anyone know where a
 bass part (with or without figures) could be obtained?

 Thanks,

 Joseph Mayes



 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Braig, Eugene]

Oops.  Please pardon my reading-the-list-and-replying-in-sequence-oversight 
redundancy.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
howard posner
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 2:35 PM
To: lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

Hi Arthur:

Might you you be confusing the concerto in G, RV 532 with the Noah's Ark (for 
lots of pairs of instruments) concerto in C, R 558?

On Oct 13, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Arthur Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net wrote:

 But notice the original instrumentation includes 2 Salmo 
 (=chalumeaux),
 2 theorbos and the violins are designated violini in tromba marina.  
 (See the red stripe.)  The comment that the Malipiero score is 
 urtext is misuse of the term!
 
 I have never discovered convincing explanation about what violini in 
 tromba marina are.  I know what a tromba marina is, but violini?  The 
 best explanation is that one plays the notes in harmonics. In the solo 
 sections??? Any other explanation?  I don't buy the explanation by 
  that they are to be played on board a ship.g


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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Mayes, Joseph]

I guess I must fess-up to the fact that this performance will be with two
classical guitars, mercifully devoid of any Youtube risk, attoll.

If I had a near neighbor like the legendary EB, I would get a mando and do
it myself.

JM


On 10/14/13 2:29 PM, Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu wrote:

 Good luck at it, Joe.  Can you share what mandolin type(s) will be featured in
 solos?  Any Youtubing planned to come of it?
 
 Best,
 Eugene
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
 Of Bernd Haegemann
 Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 3:08 AM
 To: Mayes, Joseph
 Cc: Lutelist
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
 
 perhaps here?
 
 `http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_2_Mandolins_in_G_major,_RV_532_(Vivaldi,_A
 ntonio) 
 http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_2_Mandolins_in_G_major,_RV_532_%28Vivaldi,
 _Antonio%29
 
 
 
 Am 13.10.2013 03:06, schrieb Mayes, Joseph:
 Two of my students are playing the G major concerto for two mandolins. They'd
 like me to play continuo on my archlute. Does anyone know where a bass part
 (with or without figures) could be obtained?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Joseph Mayes
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Braig, Eugene]

Ha!  I think you mean semi-infamous.  Have fun out there.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: Mayes, Joseph [mailto:ma...@rowan.edu] 
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 6:00 PM
To: Braig, Eugene; Lutelist
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi




I guess I must fess-up to the fact that this performance will be with two 
classical guitars, mercifully devoid of any Youtube risk, attoll.

If I had a near neighbor like the legendary EB, I would get a mando and do it 
myself.

JM


On 10/14/13 2:29 PM, Braig, Eugene brai...@osu.edu wrote:

 Good luck at it, Joe.  Can you share what mandolin type(s) will be 
 featured in solos?  Any Youtubing planned to come of it?
 
 Best,
 Eugene
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
 Behalf Of Bernd Haegemann
 Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 3:08 AM
 To: Mayes, Joseph
 Cc: Lutelist
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
 
 perhaps here?
 
 `http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_2_Mandolins_in_G_major,_RV_532_(Vi
 valdi,_A
 ntonio)
 http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_2_Mandolins_in_G_major,_RV_532_%28
 Vivaldi,
 _Antonio%29
 
 
 
 Am 13.10.2013 03:06, schrieb Mayes, Joseph:
 Two of my students are playing the G major concerto for two 
 mandolins. They'd like me to play continuo on my archlute. Does 
 anyone know where a bass part (with or without figures) could be obtained?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Joseph Mayes
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at 
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
 
 
 





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This message was secured by ZixCorp(R).

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Bernd Haegemann]

perhaps here?

`http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_2_Mandolins_in_G_major,_RV_532_(Vivaldi,_Antonio) 
http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_2_Mandolins_in_G_major,_RV_532_%28Vivaldi,_Antonio%29




Am 13.10.2013 03:06, schrieb Mayes, Joseph:

Two of my students are playing the G major concerto for two mandolins. They'd 
like me to play continuo on my archlute. Does anyone know where a bass part 
(with or without figures) could be obtained?

Thanks,

Joseph Mayes



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Christopher Wilke]

Joe,

Have you tried:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_2_Mandolins_in_G_major,_RV_532_(Vivaldi,_Antonio)

I have no idea of the quality of these editions. You can download the score 
and parts. I see there is a part for organ which is most likely what you're 
after.

Chris



Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com


On Sat, 10/12/13, Mayes, Joseph ma...@rowan.edu wrote:

 Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi
 To: G. Crona kalei...@gmail.com, Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Saturday, October 12, 2013, 9:06 PM
 
 Two of my students are playing the G
 major concerto for two mandolins. They'd like me to play
 continuo on my archlute. Does anyone know where a bass part
 (with or without figures) could be obtained?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Joseph Mayes
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Arthur Ness]

It's available in the International Music Library Project (EU):

http://imslp.org/index.php?title=Category:Vivaldi%2C%20Antoniofrom=C

http://imslp.eu/download.php?file=files/imglnks/euimg/8/81/IMSLP134924-PMLP237520-Vivaldi_Concerto_2mandolins_RV532.pdf

This score is clearer and has PARTS:

http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/0/0e/IMSLP288061-PMLP237520-Concerto-2Bandolins.pdf

But notice the original instrumentation includes 2 Salmo (=chalumeaux),
2 theorbos and the violins are designated violini in tromba marina.  (See
the red stripe.)  The comment that the Malipiero score is urtext is misuse
of the term!

I have never discovered convincing explanation about what violini in
tromba marina are.  I know what a
tromba marina is, but violini?  The best explanation is that one plays the
notes in harmonics. In the solo sections??? Any other explanation?  I don't
buy the explanation by  that they are to be played on board a ship.g

Both are the Malipiero edition and I didn't see figures.  But he has
realized the continuo in the organ part and that will assist to determine
the harmonies.  Malipiero, the usual Collected Edition of  Vivaldi's
instrumental works, is over edited in my opinion.  In this case, given the
original intrumentation, it is under-edited.g

Best wishes to you and  Kathleen,

Arthur
- Original Message - 
From: Mayes, Joseph ma...@rowan.edu

To: G. Crona kalei...@gmail.com; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 9:06 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi



Two of my students are playing the G major concerto for two mandolins.
They'd like me to play continuo on my archlute. Does anyone know where a
bass part (with or without figures) could be obtained?

Thanks,

Joseph Mayes



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[howard posner]

Hi Arthur:

Might you you be confusing the concerto in G, RV 532 with the Noah's Ark (for 
lots of pairs of instruments) concerto in C, R 558?

On Oct 13, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Arthur Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net wrote:

 But notice the original instrumentation includes 2 Salmo (=chalumeaux),
 2 theorbos and the violins are designated violini in tromba marina.  (See
 the red stripe.)  The comment that the Malipiero score is urtext is misuse
 of the term!
 
 I have never discovered convincing explanation about what violini in
 tromba marina are.  I know what a
 tromba marina is, but violini?  The best explanation is that one plays the
 notes in harmonics. In the solo sections??? Any other explanation?  I don't
 buy the explanation by  that they are to be played on board a ship.g


--

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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Arthur Ness]

From: Arthur Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net
To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi



Hello Howard,

I was relying on Robbin Landon, as quoted in the entry for RV 558 (G
major), cited here at the red band:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_2_Mandolins_in_G_major,_RV_532_(Vivaldi,_Antonio)

But I checked the cited page 72 in Robbins Landon, and he does not give
the key, just the instrumentation in modern Italian.  He was probably
referring to the C major concerto (con molto strumenti) and the ISMLP
editor cited the wrong concerto.  I never heard it called the Noah
Concerto, but that's a good name for it.  All of the instrument are solo.

In any event, Malipiero cannot be trusted.  And I suspected some editorial
mischief as in the lute concertos.  Malipiero had a private library in
northern Italy.

- Original Message - 
From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com

To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 2:34 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi



Hi Arthur:

Might you you be confusing the concerto in G, RV 532 with the Noah's
Ark (for lots of pairs of instruments) concerto in C, R 558?

On Oct 13, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Arthur Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net
wrote:


But notice the original instrumentation includes 2 Salmo
(=chalumeaux),
2 theorbos and the violins are designated violini in tromba marina.
(See
the red stripe.)  The comment that the Malipiero score is urtext is
misuse
of the term!

I have never discovered convincing explanation about what violini in
tromba marina are.  I know what a
tromba marina is, but violini?  The best explanation is that one plays
the
notes in harmonics. In the solo sections??? Any other explanation?  I
don't
buy the explanation by  that they are to be played on board a
ship.g



--

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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Concerto RV 93 again - live rec.

[Edward Mast]

Thank you for posting this fine performance.  The lovely sound of the lute came 
through on the recording, though a bit subdued as one would expect.  I hope it 
did as well for the audience;  it must be difficult to project a lute's sound 
into a large hall.
On Nov 6, 2011, at 5:29 PM, Anna Wiktoria Swoboda wrote:

   Dear Colleagues,
   I would like to share my struggle with Vivaldi's Lute Concerto in
   D-major played live, in a big hall, without amplification, on the
   baroque lute, strung partially in gut.
   There was only one, not very good microphone for whole ensemble, so
   sorry for not satisfying sound quality of the lute in the tuttis.
   Thanks to all of you for the very interesting and informative
   discussion couple months ago about the appropriate/right/historical
   instrument which should be used for Vivaldi's lute works.
   We worked shortly on this Concerto with my professor - Rolf Lislevand,
   whose first advice when I came with this piece was - play it on the
   baroque guitar! (as he did on his famous Vivaldi recording...).
   Indeed, it works fantastic on b-guitar, especially in the tuttis! But I
   decided to play it on the b-lute, because it is still the main
   instrument for me.
   Wiktoria.
   [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBBpI90WhIIfeature=feedu
   [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIH8XoYyUtkfeature=feedu
   [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuN3qQ4viqEfeature=feedu --
 
 References
 
   1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBBpI90WhIIfeature=feedu
   2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIH8XoYyUtkfeature=feedu
   3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuN3qQ4viqEfeature=feedu
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi trio RV85

[Stephan Olbertz]

For 24 Euro you get them all, see below.

Regards

Stephan

--- Weitergeleitete Nachricht ---
Von: Fabio Rizza fabio_ri...@alice.it
An: baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Kopie:
Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Vivaldi - Concertos and Trios for Lute and Mandolin
Datum: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 09:55:05 +0200

   Dear friends,
I'm pleased to announce that my edition of Vivaldi's Trios and Concertos
for lute and mandolin is now available.
The volume contains the following works:
• Trios RV 82 and 85
• Lute Concerto RV 93
• Mandolin Concertos 425 and 532
• Concerto 540 for viola d'amore, lute and strings
Its main features are:
- Concerto RV 425: the ossia measures, written by Vivaldi for the
mandolin part and omitted in Malipiero's edition, are here included
- Concerto RV 540: the lute part includes the basso continuo staff, as
in the original manuscript; the viola d'amore part includes the tutti,
as in the original ms
- the separate lute parts are always available in two formats: one
written at pitch, and the other one written on octave higher, as in the
original manuscripts
- the separate lute parts always include the basso continuo staff
The volume contains a rich essay by Rossella Perrone (in Italian and in
English) about Vivaldi's works for plucked instruments.
http://issuu.com/emotiv/docs/vivaldidemo
http://www.carisch.com/catalog/product/view/id/17780/
http://www.fondazionearcadia.org/it/0039/862-864-26/concerti_e_trii_per_liuto_e_mandolino.html

Best regards,
Fabio Rizza

Am 14.07.2011, 12:49 Uhr, schrieb Henry Villca henry_l...@yahoo.com:


Dear lute players,
   Hope this letter finds you in good spirit and
   health.
   I am about to perform my recital at the Royal Conservatory in the
   coming months. I would much appreciate if you could please help me on
   finding the complete score in pdf of Vivaldis trio RV85,
   Thank you very much!!.
   Warm Regards
   Henry Orlando V.

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi trio RV85

[G. Crona]

http://luthlibrairie.free.fr/?Divers


- Original Message - 
From: Henry Villca henry_l...@yahoo.com

To: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 12:49 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi trio RV85



   Dear lute players,
  Hope this letter finds you in good spirit and
  health.
  I am about to perform my recital at the Royal Conservatory in the
  coming months. I would much appreciate if you could please help me on
  finding the complete score in pdf of Vivaldis trio RV85,
  Thank you very much!!.
  Warm Regards
  Henry Orlando V.




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi trio RV85

[David Smith]

Does anyone know of a link where this can be bought online? The link to Carisch 
(the publisher) does not seem to take web orders and I do not see any 
distributors in the US that handle this.

Thanks for any help.
Regards
David

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Stephan Olbertz
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 3:59 AM
To: Lute net; Henry Villca
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi trio RV85


For 24 Euro you get them all, see below.

Regards

Stephan

--- Weitergeleitete Nachricht ---
Von: Fabio Rizza fabio_ri...@alice.it
An: baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Kopie:
Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Vivaldi - Concertos and Trios for Lute and Mandolin
Datum: Sun, 12 Sep 2010 09:55:05 +0200

Dear friends,
I'm pleased to announce that my edition of Vivaldi's Trios and Concertos for 
lute and mandolin is now available.
The volume contains the following works:
  Trios RV 82 and 85
  Lute Concerto RV 93
  Mandolin Concertos 425 and 532
  Concerto 540 for viola d'amore, lute and strings Its main features are:
- Concerto RV 425: the ossia measures, written by Vivaldi for the mandolin part 
and omitted in Malipiero's edition, are here included
- Concerto RV 540: the lute part includes the basso continuo staff, as in the 
original manuscript; the viola d'amore part includes the tutti, as in the 
original ms
- the separate lute parts are always available in two formats: one written at 
pitch, and the other one written on octave higher, as in the original 
manuscripts
- the separate lute parts always include the basso continuo staff The volume 
contains a rich essay by Rossella Perrone (in Italian and in
English) about Vivaldi's works for plucked instruments.
http://issuu.com/emotiv/docs/vivaldidemo
http://www.carisch.com/catalog/product/view/id/17780/
http://www.fondazionearcadia.org/it/0039/862-864-26/concerti_e_trii_per_liuto_e_mandolino.html

Best regards,
Fabio Rizza

Am 14.07.2011, 12:49 Uhr, schrieb Henry Villca henry_l...@yahoo.com:

 Dear lute players,
Hope this letter finds you in good spirit and
health.
I am about to perform my recital at the Royal Conservatory in the
coming months. I would much appreciate if you could please help me on
finding the complete score in pdf of Vivaldis trio RV85,
Thank you very much!!.
Warm Regards
Henry Orlando V.

--


 To get on or off this list see list information at 
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Double Cello Concerto RV 531

[David Tayler]

The Allegro of the Vivialdi Double is now online--a real toe-tapper :)
http://youtu.be/yF1AfeWwWQA?hd=1


dt





At 04:09 PM 2/8/2011, you wrote:
Very nice, David.  I played continuo on that piece at least 2 times 
in the past, and it is gorgeous.

ed

At 12:23 PM 2/8/2011, David Tayler wrote:
For those wishing to dive into continuo, the slow movement of the
concerto for two cellos in G Minor is an excellent piece to work on,
and it lies really well on the lute, archlute or theorbo.

http://youtu.be/BWDFshDDJ3I?hd=1

dt



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Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  e...@gamutstrings.com
voice:  (218) 728-1202
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name
http://www.myspace.com/edslute

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Double Cello Concerto RV 531

[David Tayler]

Arto--
I will make an edition without the tenor clefs--good idea.
dt

At 11:55 AM 2/8/2011, you wrote:

Dive into the _listening_ of continuo? Any link to the written music?
Beautiful, though. ;-)  Thanks!

Arto

On Tue, 08 Feb 2011 10:23:56 -0800, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
  For those wishing to dive into continuo, the slow movement of the
  concerto for two cellos in G Minor is an excellent piece to work on,
  and it lies really well on the lute, archlute or theorbo.
 
  http://youtu.be/BWDFshDDJ3I?hd=1
 
  dt
 
 
 
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Double Cello Concerto RV 531

[wikla]

Dive into the _listening_ of continuo? Any link to the written music?
Beautiful, though. ;-)  Thanks!

Arto

On Tue, 08 Feb 2011 10:23:56 -0800, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net
wrote:
 For those wishing to dive into continuo, the slow movement of the 
 concerto for two cellos in G Minor is an excellent piece to work on, 
 and it lies really well on the lute, archlute or theorbo.
 
 http://youtu.be/BWDFshDDJ3I?hd=1
 
 dt
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Double Cello Concerto RV 531

[Bernd Haegemann]

Dive into the _listening_ of continuo? Any link to the written music?



That is already the 2. dan of Continuo: no numbers + no notes :-)=




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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Double Cello Concerto RV 531

[Edward Martin]

Very nice, David.  I played continuo on that piece at least 2 times 
in the past, and it is gorgeous.

ed

At 12:23 PM 2/8/2011, David Tayler wrote:
For those wishing to dive into continuo, the slow movement of the
concerto for two cellos in G Minor is an excellent piece to work on,
and it lies really well on the lute, archlute or theorbo.

http://youtu.be/BWDFshDDJ3I?hd=1

dt



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  e...@gamutstrings.com
voice:  (218) 728-1202
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name
http://www.myspace.com/edslute

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi RV 588

[David van Ooijen]

My mistake, quickly pointed out by Albert Reyerman: it's RV 558 aka
the concerto con molti instrumenti.

David - should be wearing his glasses ...

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 9:39 AM, David van
Ooijendavidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm to play in this party piece in two weeks. Fun! :-) It has two part
 for tiorba, as well as mandolines and what-not in pairs. Did anybody
 on the list ever play these tiorba parts? It could be done on theorbo
 in a, but then preferably with second string in the high octave, as it
 goes to high b'. It also needs low C. So I suppose some sort of
 mandora/callichon was intended, but I'm sorely tempted to use an
 archlute. It's fast as well ...

 David


 --
 ***
 David van Ooijen
 davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 www.davidvanooijen.nl
 ***




-- 
***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi RV 588

[Sal Salvaggio]

This is the Noah's Ark one. I would probably use the Arch lute - and
   probably be bull whipped by  purists in the process - SS
   --- On Thu, 6/18/09, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi RV 588
 To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 3:39 AM

   I'm to play in this party piece in two weeks. Fun! :-) It has two part
   for tiorba, as well as mandolines and what-not in pairs. Did anybody
   on the list ever play these tiorba parts? It could be done on theorbo
   in a, but then preferably with second string in the high octave, as it
   goes to high b'. It also needs low C. So I suppose some sort of
   mandora/callichon was intended, but I'm sorely tempted to use an
   archlute. It's fast as well ...
   David
   --
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://us.mc544.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi on the lute

[Arto Wikla]

Sauvage Valéry wrote:

For Arto, there is this one on Youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS6iuo5lvzI


Hey, this is fun! ;-)
Thanks!

Arto



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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Concerto as lute solo

[Rob MacKillop]

I have uploaded to the new Lute online community a keyboard arrangement of
the string parts to Vivaldi's D Major concerto for lute - useful for
practising with a harpsichord.

http://lutegroup.ning.com/

Rob

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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi on the lute

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 03:26 AM 5/16/2008, Sauvage Valéry wrote:

For Arto, there is this one on Youtube :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS6iuo5lvzI


Ha, that worked surprisingly well!  However, I'm not too keen on the 
accompaniment of excessive wind noise.


Eugene 




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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Concerto as lute solo

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 03:48 AM 5/16/2008, Mathias Rösel wrote:

'twas the hey-day of the lute in Prague, that's for sure. I doubt,
however, that it was the lute which Vivaldi had in mind when he used
violin clef in his score. Ask Eric, not me, he's the expert.


Whatever instrument Vivaldi had in mind, I don't think the treble clef was 
anything more than a violinist's shorthand to make it easier for Vivaldi to 
write out.  I don't think realizations at the octave written are 
particularly satisfying.  I don't know how often Eric is reading up on 
lute-list posts, and I would never presume to speak for him, but as you 
point out, Mathias, his paper does argue rather well for mandora in 
guitar-like intervals with a core tuning from D to d' (add a bass or two at 
whim).


Eugene 




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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Concerto as lute solo

[Arkadia Trio]

- Original Message - 
From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: LUTELIST List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 3:11 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Concerto as lute solo



Whatever instrument Vivaldi had in mind, I don't think the treble clef was
anything more than a violinist's shorthand to make it easier for Vivaldi 
to

write out.



I agree. Having seen hundreds and hundreds of pages of manuscripted works by 
Vivaldi, I'm quite sure that the choice of the clef was made by the copists 
with the only aim to save precious space on the paper. In many cases the 
violin parts were written in bass clef (!) to avoid upper notes: the 
resulting effect, of course, is two or three (!) octaves higher than 
notated.
For what may concern the lute works, since the lute often doubles the 
violin, the treble clef looks like the most obvious choice...



Fabio





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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Concerto as lute solo

[wikla]

I wrote

 My intabulation is written so that if you play it by an A-lute in
 renaissance tuning, you get the original key of D-major. Or if you
 just call your first string a, you may call the key of my arr D-major.. :-)
[...]
 The midi versions assume a G-lute in renaissance tuning.
 So the midi's are in C-major.
[...]
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Vivaldi/

By the way, is it known, in which pitch Vivaldi's orchestra was using? I
would imagine quite a lot is known/studied about V's practices.

Arto



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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Concerto as lute solo

[howard posner]

On May 15, 2008, at 9:29 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 By the way, is it known, in which pitch Vivaldi's orchestra was using?

The short answer is no.  To answer the question, we'd have to be sure  
where he was when he wrote it (he toured around a great deal) and  
assume he intended the pitch in that location.  Then it's possible  
there was more than one pitch in use there.  I believe Venice, his  
nominal home, produced wind instruments at a 466 or so in the 1600s.   
Two organs built there in the mid-1700s are at about 436.

Orchestra is a little misleading, since it's likely everything was  
one player per part.


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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Concerto as lute solo

[LGS-Europe]

By the way, is it known, in which pitch Vivaldi's orchestra was using?


The short answer is no.  To answer the question, we'd have to be sure
where he was when he wrote it (he toured around a great deal)


Search the archives. Last year (?) the collected wisdom answered my queries 
about this lute concerto - what type of lute was it written for in the first 
place? - and came up with Prague as place of conception. If I remember well. 
Info was found on sleeve notes of a recording.


David



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl





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