Re: [Marxism] Question re pro Assad lefts

[mkaradjis . via Marxism]

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Carl says "I think PYD control of Rojava is legitimate." Then he says
"I think all US troops (and weapons) should be withdrawn from Syria
(and Iraq)." So he is a mass of contradictions. Carl wants to still
pretend that the US is in Syria to fight the regime, whereas that has
never even remotely been the case. The US is in Syria in Rojava; with
the express permission, agreement, of the PYD (the SDF, dominated by
the PYD). So if he thinks the imperial Russian state is "legitimately"
obliterating Syrian cities and slaughtering thousands of people,
because the fascist regime invited it in, then why doesn't he think
the legitimate PYD authorities in Rojava can legitimately invite the
US airforce, special forces, military bases etc?

And I'll repeat my other question: Does Carl believe that Saudi Arabia
and its allies are legitimately bombing hell out of Yemen, since they
are invited in by the legitimate Yemen government, as explicitly
recognised by the UN Security Council (including by Mother Russia)?

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 2:48 AM, John Reimann via Marxism
 wrote:
>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> *
>
> I think ALL imperialist forces should be withdrawn. that also includes
> Russian and Iranian. And they, after all, are the ones doing the most
> damage as far as human suffering. But what does human suffering matter when
> they are there "legitimately" according to capitalist law?
>
> John
>
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 8:31 AM, Carl G. Estabrook 
> wrote:
>
>> I think all US troops (and weapons) should be withdrawn from Syria (and
>> Iraq). Don’t you?
>>
>> And the US should insist its 'NATO ally,’ Turkey, leave as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 14, 2018, at 10:21 AM, John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So, in other words, Carl Estabrook has no objection to US troops in
>> Rojava. Nor, I take it, to the US bombing of Raqqa in preparation for the
>> Kurdish forces to take over that area. Some "anti US imperialism"!
>>
>> It leads to another question: Does he have any opposition to the US's role
>> in Mosul?
>>
>> John Reimann
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 8:11 AM, Carl G. Estabrook 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think PYD control of Rojava is legitimate, and the (Syrian) Kurds
>>> should be part of the general peace in Syria that the Russians have been
>>> trying to arrange - and that the US has been frustrating. Rojava has asked
>>> for Damascus troops to aid its battle against the Turks invading Afrin,
>>> thereby acknowledging its participation in the government of Syria.
>>>
>>> Obama’s attack on Syria is comparable to Clinton’s attack on Serbia,
>>> another less than admirable regime where the US 'presence' was
>>> illegitimate. —CGE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 14, 2018, at 9:36 AM, John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I note that Carl skirts the question of whether he calls for the US to
>>> stop arming and aiding the Kurds (including having US troops in their
>>> territory.) That, after all, is the real main thrust of US involvement. But
>>> it also leads to another question: Does Karl consider the PYD control over
>>> Rojava to be legitimate? In that case, then their having invited in the US
>>> troops in makes the US presence "legitimate".
>>>
>>> Or take another example: The Mexican and Colombian governments have
>>> "invited" US forces in to spray huge swaths of land to get rid of poppy and
>>> marijuana crops. I suppose that makes their actions there "legitimate" too?
>>>
>>> This whole claim about "legitimace" or "legality" really shows how far
>>> the apologists for Assad & Putin have strayed from the most basic socialist
>>> ideals. Here you have a brutal, repressive regime, one that has been a
>>> stooge for the World Bank and whose economic policies could have been taken
>>> straight out of the pages of "The Shock Doctrine", one that survives by
>>> bombing and gassing its own population - never mind mass torture - and it
>>> asks for military help from another right wing regime. Since the laws of
>>> capitalist legality make that OK, then according to Estabrook and similar
>>> people, there's nothing to be argued with.
>>>
>>> John Reimann
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Carl G. Estabrook <
>>> galli...@illinois.edu> wrote:
>>>
 US out of Syria would include ending US support - or indulgence - 

Re: [Marxism] Question re pro Assad lefts

[Tristan Sloughter via Marxism]

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The CPGB-ML actually opposes the slogan "Don't Bomb Syria" because it would 
apply to Russia as well, and they believe Russia's bombs are, "fraternal 
support for the Syrian people".

http://archive.cpgb-ml.org/download/publications/DriveToWar_read.pdf
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Re: [Marxism] Question re pro Assad lefts

[John Reimann via Marxism]

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I think ALL imperialist forces should be withdrawn. that also includes
Russian and Iranian. And they, after all, are the ones doing the most
damage as far as human suffering. But what does human suffering matter when
they are there "legitimately" according to capitalist law?

John

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 8:31 AM, Carl G. Estabrook 
wrote:

> I think all US troops (and weapons) should be withdrawn from Syria (and
> Iraq). Don’t you?
>
> And the US should insist its 'NATO ally,’ Turkey, leave as well.
>
>
>
> On Mar 14, 2018, at 10:21 AM, John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So, in other words, Carl Estabrook has no objection to US troops in
> Rojava. Nor, I take it, to the US bombing of Raqqa in preparation for the
> Kurdish forces to take over that area. Some "anti US imperialism"!
>
> It leads to another question: Does he have any opposition to the US's role
> in Mosul?
>
> John Reimann
>
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 8:11 AM, Carl G. Estabrook 
> wrote:
>
>> I think PYD control of Rojava is legitimate, and the (Syrian) Kurds
>> should be part of the general peace in Syria that the Russians have been
>> trying to arrange - and that the US has been frustrating. Rojava has asked
>> for Damascus troops to aid its battle against the Turks invading Afrin,
>> thereby acknowledging its participation in the government of Syria.
>>
>> Obama’s attack on Syria is comparable to Clinton’s attack on Serbia,
>> another less than admirable regime where the US 'presence' was
>> illegitimate. —CGE
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 14, 2018, at 9:36 AM, John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I note that Carl skirts the question of whether he calls for the US to
>> stop arming and aiding the Kurds (including having US troops in their
>> territory.) That, after all, is the real main thrust of US involvement. But
>> it also leads to another question: Does Karl consider the PYD control over
>> Rojava to be legitimate? In that case, then their having invited in the US
>> troops in makes the US presence "legitimate".
>>
>> Or take another example: The Mexican and Colombian governments have
>> "invited" US forces in to spray huge swaths of land to get rid of poppy and
>> marijuana crops. I suppose that makes their actions there "legitimate" too?
>>
>> This whole claim about "legitimace" or "legality" really shows how far
>> the apologists for Assad & Putin have strayed from the most basic socialist
>> ideals. Here you have a brutal, repressive regime, one that has been a
>> stooge for the World Bank and whose economic policies could have been taken
>> straight out of the pages of "The Shock Doctrine", one that survives by
>> bombing and gassing its own population - never mind mass torture - and it
>> asks for military help from another right wing regime. Since the laws of
>> capitalist legality make that OK, then according to Estabrook and similar
>> people, there's nothing to be argued with.
>>
>> John Reimann
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Carl G. Estabrook <
>> galli...@illinois.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> US out of Syria would include ending US support - or indulgence - for
>>> its NATO ally, Turkey, who should also exit Syria.
>>>
>>> Russia - legitimately in Syria - seems to have placed limits on Turkish
>>> action in Syria.
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Mar 7, 2018, at 3:34 AM, John Reimann via Marxism <
>>> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
>>> > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
>>> > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
>>> > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
>>> > *
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I was recently asked about supporting the slogan US out of Syria. (My
>>> response was yes if we include all imperialist forces, especially Russia
>>> and Iran, who are really the main actors there.) But I got to thinking:
>>> Since the US has intervened so decisively on the side of the Kurds, who are
>>> uncritically admired by these same lefts, what has been their position? Are
>>> they demanding that US troops leave Afrin and stop aiding the Kurds? Does
>>> anybody know? (I know they were silent about US military action in Raqqa.)
>>> >
>>> > John Reimann
>>> > Sent from my iPad
>>> > _
>>> > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
>>> > Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/opt
>>> ions/marxism/galliher%40illinois.edu
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *“How can we expect righteousness to 

Re: [Marxism] Question re pro Assad lefts

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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I think all US troops (and weapons) should be withdrawn from Syria (and Iraq). 
Don’t you?

And the US should insist its 'NATO ally,’ Turkey, leave as well. 


> On Mar 14, 2018, at 10:21 AM, John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> So, in other words, Carl Estabrook has no objection to US troops in Rojava. 
> Nor, I take it, to the US bombing of Raqqa in preparation for the Kurdish 
> forces to take over that area. Some "anti US imperialism"!
> 
> It leads to another question: Does he have any opposition to the US's role in 
> Mosul?
> 
> John Reimann
> 
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 8:11 AM, Carl G. Estabrook  > wrote:
> I think PYD control of Rojava is legitimate, and the (Syrian) Kurds should be 
> part of the general peace in Syria that the Russians have been trying to 
> arrange - and that the US has been frustrating. Rojava has asked for Damascus 
> troops to aid its battle against the Turks invading Afrin, thereby 
> acknowledging its participation in the government of Syria.
> 
> Obama’s attack on Syria is comparable to Clinton’s attack on Serbia, another 
> less than admirable regime where the US 'presence' was illegitimate. —CGE
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 14, 2018, at 9:36 AM, John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> I note that Carl skirts the question of whether he calls for the US to stop 
>> arming and aiding the Kurds (including having US troops in their territory.) 
>> That, after all, is the real main thrust of US involvement. But it also 
>> leads to another question: Does Karl consider the PYD control over Rojava to 
>> be legitimate? In that case, then their having invited in the US troops in 
>> makes the US presence "legitimate".
>> 
>> Or take another example: The Mexican and Colombian governments have 
>> "invited" US forces in to spray huge swaths of land to get rid of poppy and 
>> marijuana crops. I suppose that makes their actions there "legitimate" too?
>> 
>> This whole claim about "legitimace" or "legality" really shows how far the 
>> apologists for Assad & Putin have strayed from the most basic socialist 
>> ideals. Here you have a brutal, repressive regime, one that has been a 
>> stooge for the World Bank and whose economic policies could have been taken 
>> straight out of the pages of "The Shock Doctrine", one that survives by 
>> bombing and gassing its own population - never mind mass torture - and it 
>> asks for military help from another right wing regime. Since the laws of 
>> capitalist legality make that OK, then according to Estabrook and similar 
>> people, there's nothing to be argued with.
>> 
>> John Reimann
>> 
>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Carl G. Estabrook > > wrote:
>> US out of Syria would include ending US support - or indulgence - for its 
>> NATO ally, Turkey, who should also exit Syria.
>> 
>> Russia - legitimately in Syria - seems to have placed limits on Turkish 
>> action in Syria.
>> 
>> 
>> > On Mar 7, 2018, at 3:34 AM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
>> > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
>> > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
>> > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
>> > *
>> >
>> >
>> > I was recently asked about supporting the slogan US out of Syria. (My 
>> > response was yes if we include all imperialist forces, especially Russia 
>> > and Iran, who are really the main actors there.) But I got to thinking: 
>> > Since the US has intervened so decisively on the side of the Kurds, who 
>> > are uncritically admired by these same lefts, what has been their 
>> > position? Are they demanding that US troops leave Afrin and stop aiding 
>> > the Kurds? Does anybody know? (I know they were silent about US military 
>> > action in Raqqa.)
>> >
>> > John Reimann
>> > Sent from my iPad
>> > _
>> > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm 
>> > 
>> > Set your options at: 
>> > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/galliher%40illinois.edu 
>> > 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> “How can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone 
>> willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause? 

Re: [Marxism] Question re pro Assad lefts

[John Reimann via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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So, in other words, Carl Estabrook has no objection to US troops in Rojava.
Nor, I take it, to the US bombing of Raqqa in preparation for the Kurdish
forces to take over that area. Some "anti US imperialism"!

It leads to another question: Does he have any opposition to the US's role
in Mosul?

John Reimann

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 8:11 AM, Carl G. Estabrook 
wrote:

> I think PYD control of Rojava is legitimate, and the (Syrian) Kurds should
> be part of the general peace in Syria that the Russians have been trying to
> arrange - and that the US has been frustrating. Rojava has asked for
> Damascus troops to aid its battle against the Turks invading Afrin, thereby
> acknowledging its participation in the government of Syria.
>
> Obama’s attack on Syria is comparable to Clinton’s attack on Serbia,
> another less than admirable regime where the US 'presence' was
> illegitimate. —CGE
>
>
>
> On Mar 14, 2018, at 9:36 AM, John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I note that Carl skirts the question of whether he calls for the US to
> stop arming and aiding the Kurds (including having US troops in their
> territory.) That, after all, is the real main thrust of US involvement. But
> it also leads to another question: Does Karl consider the PYD control over
> Rojava to be legitimate? In that case, then their having invited in the US
> troops in makes the US presence "legitimate".
>
> Or take another example: The Mexican and Colombian governments have
> "invited" US forces in to spray huge swaths of land to get rid of poppy and
> marijuana crops. I suppose that makes their actions there "legitimate" too?
>
> This whole claim about "legitimace" or "legality" really shows how far the
> apologists for Assad & Putin have strayed from the most basic socialist
> ideals. Here you have a brutal, repressive regime, one that has been a
> stooge for the World Bank and whose economic policies could have been taken
> straight out of the pages of "The Shock Doctrine", one that survives by
> bombing and gassing its own population - never mind mass torture - and it
> asks for military help from another right wing regime. Since the laws of
> capitalist legality make that OK, then according to Estabrook and similar
> people, there's nothing to be argued with.
>
> John Reimann
>
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Carl G. Estabrook  > wrote:
>
>> US out of Syria would include ending US support - or indulgence - for its
>> NATO ally, Turkey, who should also exit Syria.
>>
>> Russia - legitimately in Syria - seems to have placed limits on Turkish
>> action in Syria.
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 7, 2018, at 3:34 AM, John Reimann via Marxism <
>> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> >   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
>> > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
>> > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
>> > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
>> > *
>> >
>> >
>> > I was recently asked about supporting the slogan US out of Syria. (My
>> response was yes if we include all imperialist forces, especially Russia
>> and Iran, who are really the main actors there.) But I got to thinking:
>> Since the US has intervened so decisively on the side of the Kurds, who are
>> uncritically admired by these same lefts, what has been their position? Are
>> they demanding that US troops leave Afrin and stop aiding the Kurds? Does
>> anybody know? (I know they were silent about US military action in Raqqa.)
>> >
>> > John Reimann
>> > Sent from my iPad
>> > _
>> > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
>> > Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/opt
>> ions/marxism/galliher%40illinois.edu
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *“How can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone
> willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause? Such a fine
> sunny day, and I have to go, but what does my death matter, if through us
> thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action?” *Sophie Scholl,
> executed by the Nazis 2/22/1943. She was 21 years old.
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
>
>
>


-- 
*“How can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone
willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause? Such a fine
sunny day, and I have to go, but what does my death matter, if through us
thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action?” *Sophie Scholl,
executed by the Nazis 

Re: [Marxism] Question re pro Assad lefts

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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*

I think PYD control of Rojava is legitimate, and the (Syrian) Kurds should be 
part of the general peace in Syria that the Russians have been trying to 
arrange - and that the US has been frustrating. Rojava has asked for Damascus 
troops to aid its battle against the Turks invading Afrin, thereby 
acknowledging its participation in the government of Syria.

Obama’s attack on Syria is comparable to Clinton’s attack on Serbia, another 
less than admirable regime where the US 'presence' was illegitimate. —CGE


> On Mar 14, 2018, at 9:36 AM, John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
> 
> I note that Carl skirts the question of whether he calls for the US to stop 
> arming and aiding the Kurds (including having US troops in their territory.) 
> That, after all, is the real main thrust of US involvement. But it also leads 
> to another question: Does Karl consider the PYD control over Rojava to be 
> legitimate? In that case, then their having invited in the US troops in makes 
> the US presence "legitimate".
> 
> Or take another example: The Mexican and Colombian governments have "invited" 
> US forces in to spray huge swaths of land to get rid of poppy and marijuana 
> crops. I suppose that makes their actions there "legitimate" too?
> 
> This whole claim about "legitimace" or "legality" really shows how far the 
> apologists for Assad & Putin have strayed from the most basic socialist 
> ideals. Here you have a brutal, repressive regime, one that has been a stooge 
> for the World Bank and whose economic policies could have been taken straight 
> out of the pages of "The Shock Doctrine", one that survives by bombing and 
> gassing its own population - never mind mass torture - and it asks for 
> military help from another right wing regime. Since the laws of capitalist 
> legality make that OK, then according to Estabrook and similar people, 
> there's nothing to be argued with.
> 
> John Reimann
> 
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Carl G. Estabrook  > wrote:
> US out of Syria would include ending US support - or indulgence - for its 
> NATO ally, Turkey, who should also exit Syria.
> 
> Russia - legitimately in Syria - seems to have placed limits on Turkish 
> action in Syria.
> 
> 
> > On Mar 7, 2018, at 3:34 AM, John Reimann via Marxism 
> > > wrote:
> >
> >   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> > *
> >
> >
> > I was recently asked about supporting the slogan US out of Syria. (My 
> > response was yes if we include all imperialist forces, especially Russia 
> > and Iran, who are really the main actors there.) But I got to thinking: 
> > Since the US has intervened so decisively on the side of the Kurds, who are 
> > uncritically admired by these same lefts, what has been their position? Are 
> > they demanding that US troops leave Afrin and stop aiding the Kurds? Does 
> > anybody know? (I know they were silent about US military action in Raqqa.)
> >
> > John Reimann
> > Sent from my iPad
> > _
> > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm 
> > 
> > Set your options at: 
> > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/galliher%40illinois.edu 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> “How can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone 
> willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause? Such a fine 
> sunny day, and I have to go, but what does my death matter, if through us 
> thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action?” Sophie Scholl, 
> executed by the Nazis 2/22/1943. She was 21 years old.
> Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com  
> also on Facebook

_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
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Re: [Marxism] Question re pro Assad lefts

[John Reimann via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
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#3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
*

I note that Carl skirts the question of whether he calls for the US to stop
arming and aiding the Kurds (including having US troops in their
territory.) That, after all, is the real main thrust of US involvement. But
it also leads to another question: Does Karl consider the PYD control over
Rojava to be legitimate? In that case, then their having invited in the US
troops in makes the US presence "legitimate".

Or take another example: The Mexican and Colombian governments have
"invited" US forces in to spray huge swaths of land to get rid of poppy and
marijuana crops. I suppose that makes their actions there "legitimate" too?

This whole claim about "legitimace" or "legality" really shows how far the
apologists for Assad & Putin have strayed from the most basic socialist
ideals. Here you have a brutal, repressive regime, one that has been a
stooge for the World Bank and whose economic policies could have been taken
straight out of the pages of "The Shock Doctrine", one that survives by
bombing and gassing its own population - never mind mass torture - and it
asks for military help from another right wing regime. Since the laws of
capitalist legality make that OK, then according to Estabrook and similar
people, there's nothing to be argued with.

John Reimann

On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Carl G. Estabrook 
wrote:

> US out of Syria would include ending US support - or indulgence - for its
> NATO ally, Turkey, who should also exit Syria.
>
> Russia - legitimately in Syria - seems to have placed limits on Turkish
> action in Syria.
>
>
> > On Mar 7, 2018, at 3:34 AM, John Reimann via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
> >
> >   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
> > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern.
> > *
> >
> >
> > I was recently asked about supporting the slogan US out of Syria. (My
> response was yes if we include all imperialist forces, especially Russia
> and Iran, who are really the main actors there.) But I got to thinking:
> Since the US has intervened so decisively on the side of the Kurds, who are
> uncritically admired by these same lefts, what has been their position? Are
> they demanding that US troops leave Afrin and stop aiding the Kurds? Does
> anybody know? (I know they were silent about US military action in Raqqa.)
> >
> > John Reimann
> > Sent from my iPad
> > _
> > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
> > Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/
> options/marxism/galliher%40illinois.edu
>
>


-- 
*“How can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone
willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause? Such a fine
sunny day, and I have to go, but what does my death matter, if through us
thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action?” *Sophie Scholl,
executed by the Nazis 2/22/1943. She was 21 years old.
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook
_
Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
Set your options at: 
http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Marxism] Question re pro Assad lefts

[mkaradjis . via Marxism]

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John, you are correct that this has been a major contradiction for
"the left" all along - justifying their support for Assad was always
on the basis of "we don't support Assad, we just oppose the
intervention of our own imperialism and critically support whoever
fights it", and they fantasised that the US was intervening against
Assad (it wasn't) and that Assad was therefore fighting the US (he
wasn't). But then when there was actual US intervention, it wasn't
against Assad, it was against ISIS, and Nusra, and often enough even
mainstream rebels, so they showed themselves as outright fakers by not
mobilising to oppose US intervention, and by not giving "critical
support" to the forces actually fighting US imperialism (ISIS, Nusra
etc). Only the Spartacists were consistent "anti-imperialists" here,
giving "critical support" to anti-imperialist ISIS against the
US-backed YPG (and thereby making a useful caricature of
"anti-imperialism").

The refusal of the "anti" war movement and the mainstream left to
oppose three years of US bombing of Syria and Iraq which left
countless thousands upon thousands of civilians dead and entire cities
reduced to Assadist-style rubble revealed the reality that all their
"anti-imperialist" justifications for defending Assad were just muck -
they were simply supporting Assad, not opposing imperialism at all.

However, on your note about Afrin: there are no US troops in Afrin;
the US declared it was only interested in Rojava in the northeast,
where it fought ISIS, and where the US wants to set up a
30,000-strong, SDF-based "border guard" to secure US interests in the
region - Afrin was declared out of bounds, so Turkey could do what it
wants. On Carl's assertion that Russia "seems to have placed limits on
Turkish action in Syria", this appears to be ideological dreaming;
Russia deliberately removed its contingent from Afrin to make way for
the Turkish invasion, and has continually given full verbal and
diplomatic support to the Turkish invasion ever since, even
contradicting Assad when he briefly toyed with the idea of offering
propagandistic support to Afrin "to defend Syrian sovereignty".

Nothing came of the latter, of course; despite a lot of noise, even
leading to a demonstration in Afrin where Assad's and Ocalan's
portraits were waved side by side - all Assad did was send in some
easily sacrificeable rabble - a handful of shabiha from the regular
NDF militia, and some Shiite-sectarian militia from the global Shiite
jihad; these tiny forces of rabble could easily be bombed by Turkey
without diplomatic incident; no SAA was sent in. In any case, the
Shiite militia headed n for the Shiite towns of Nubl and Zahra, and it
then seemed that was their destination all along, rather than
defending Afrin. As Turkey closes in on the capital, it is clear the
YPG/SDF bought a pony.

Meanwhile, to gain this Assad, er ... "support", the SDF handed over
half a dozen suburbs in Aleppo to the regime, and the latest news was
that it handed over Tal Rifaat to the regime. Tal Rifaat, of course,
was the iconic rebel-held, Arab-majority town, from where the great
FSA war that drove ISIS out of all of western Syria was launched from
in 2014 - then the YPG, using the terror-bombing of the invading
Russian airforce, conquered it in 2016, lying that it was occupied by
"Nusra" (the YPG's term for all rebels outside the SDF). Thus the YPG
simply helped the regime re-take FSA territory.

Many of the ex-rebels now fighting for Turkey against Afrin - doing
the mirror image of what the YPG did two years earlier - are fro the
population of 100-150,000 former residents of the greater Tal Rifaat
region, who were cleansed when the YPG took over, living in camps
around rebel-held Azaz. In fact, if they had simply tried to retake
the Tal Rifaat region from the YPG occupation forces, they would have
been fully justified. Ironically, while they fought t help Turkey
conquer Kurdish-majority Afrin proper, the invasion never went
anywhere near Tal Rifaat - no doubt Russia, Turkey and Assad had a
deal on that.

Anyone who thinks only one side was responsible for the breakdown on
the Arab-Kurdish anti-Assad front has ideological blinkers.

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 6:05 AM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism
 wrote:
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>
> US out of Syria would include ending US 

Re: [Marxism] Question re pro Assad lefts

[Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism]

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US out of Syria would include ending US support - or indulgence - for its NATO 
ally, Turkey, who should also exit Syria.

Russia - legitimately in Syria - seems to have placed limits on Turkish action 
in Syria.

 
> On Mar 7, 2018, at 3:34 AM, John Reimann via Marxism 
>  wrote:
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> 
> 
> I was recently asked about supporting the slogan US out of Syria. (My 
> response was yes if we include all imperialist forces, especially Russia and 
> Iran, who are really the main actors there.) But I got to thinking: Since the 
> US has intervened so decisively on the side of the Kurds, who are 
> uncritically admired by these same lefts, what has been their position? Are 
> they demanding that US troops leave Afrin and stop aiding the Kurds? Does 
> anybody know? (I know they were silent about US military action in Raqqa.)
> 
> John Reimann 
> Sent from my iPad
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[Marxism] Question re pro Assad lefts

[John Reimann via Marxism]

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I was recently asked about supporting the slogan US out of Syria. (My response 
was yes if we include all imperialist forces, especially Russia and Iran, who 
are really the main actors there.) But I got to thinking: Since the US has 
intervened so decisively on the side of the Kurds, who are uncritically admired 
by these same lefts, what has been their position? Are they demanding that US 
troops leave Afrin and stop aiding the Kurds? Does anybody know? (I know they 
were silent about US military action in Raqqa.)

John Reimann 
Sent from my iPad
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[Marxism] Question: Class nature of the Antifa?

[Manuel Barrera via Marxism]

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Hi, Louis and all
I have been following the escalating developments of the antifa and noted how 
some otherwise promising activists may be lured into this ultraleft trap.
I was wondering if anyone here has knowledge or writings regarding the class 
nature of the current antifa? I am most interested in who these people are in 
the U.S. but would be interested in any analyses that have been conducted 
around the world? I am not really that interested in the "basics" of works on 
ultraleftism or even historical accounts from previous eras as important and 
useful as those are (know a bit about those already). I am more interested in 
knowing if anyone has examined the material bases for the current "crop" of 
people involved. This force seems to be attracting young activists and others 
emerging into activism. It seems useful to understand what is taking place here.
I'll appreciate your thinking on this issue.
Manuel Barrera
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Re: [Marxism] Question

[Andrew Stewart via Marxism]

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Louis 

I studied under Richard Lobban. He was doing scholarship on Islamism as a style 
of government back when Peter Camejo was running for president on the SWP 
ticket. Because he was working in Sudan, he was there when bin Laden showed up 
in Khartoum. You can find his stuff pretty easily. I tend to follow his 
analysis on this issue pretty regularly.

Best regards,
Andrew Stewart 

> On 4/18/17 5:57 PM, Andrew Stewart wrote:
> The interplay between al Queda and members of the royal family as opposed to 
> the government is well documented.

My advice to Andrew and anybody else interested in these questions is to read 
"The Thistle and the Drone" by Akbar Ahmed, which is now online:

https://archive.org/stream/The_Thistle_and_the_Drone_How_Americas_War_on_Terror_Became_a_Global_War_on_Trib/The_Thistle_and_the_Drone_How_Americas_War_on_Terror_Became_a_Global_War_on_Tribal_Islam_by_Akbar_Ahmed_djvu.txt

If you don't have time to read the whole thing, this chapter is essential:


page 43
Bin Laden’s Dilemma:

Balancing Tribal and Islamic Identity
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Re: [Marxism] Question

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 4/18/17 5:57 PM, Andrew Stewart wrote:

The interplay between al Queda and members of the royal family as opposed to 
the government is well documented.


My advice to Andrew and anybody else interested in these questions is to 
read "The Thistle and the Drone" by Akbar Ahmed, which is now online:


https://archive.org/stream/The_Thistle_and_the_Drone_How_Americas_War_on_Terror_Became_a_Global_War_on_Trib/The_Thistle_and_the_Drone_How_Americas_War_on_Terror_Became_a_Global_War_on_Tribal_Islam_by_Akbar_Ahmed_djvu.txt

If you don't have time to read the whole thing, this chapter is essential:


page 43
Bin Laden’s Dilemma:

Balancing Tribal and Islamic Identity

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Re: [Marxism] Question

[Andrew Stewart via Marxism]

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Are you really that unclear about the situation that is in the 9-11 report or 
are you being sarcastic? The Saudi royal family is a fractious, schismatic kind 
of mirror image of the American left. The interplay between al Queda and 
members of the royal family as opposed to the government is well documented. 
How much pull each family member has in an individual consulate or mosque in 
America is borne out by the historical record. Furthermore the fact that bin 
Laden was opposed to the royal family may not have been a huge factor in the 
behavior of the hijackers in America. How do you not get this?

Best regards,
Andrew Stewart 

> On Apr 18, 2017, at 5:37 PM, Louis Proyect  wrote:
> 
>> On 4/18/17 2:10 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:
>> 
>> The unredacted 9-11 report has the hijackers getting aid and financing from
>> both the Saudi diplomatic corps and their network of American theological
>> groupings centered around Wahhabi-brand mosques and other organizations.
>> This is pretty well documented in multiple sources.
>> 
>> https://28pages.org/2016/04/18/911-commission-investigators-proposed-examining-possible-political-economic-and-other-influences-on-inquiries-into-saudi-ties-to-attacks/
>> 
>> https://28pages.org/saudi-government-connections-to-911-shouldnt-stay-secret/
> 
> 
> So, you are saying that Saudi Arabia was behind 9/11 even though al-Qaeda had 
> declared war on the ruling family?
> 

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Re: [Marxism] Question

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 4/18/17 2:10 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:


The unredacted 9-11 report has the hijackers getting aid and financing from
both the Saudi diplomatic corps and their network of American theological
groupings centered around Wahhabi-brand mosques and other organizations.
This is pretty well documented in multiple sources.

https://28pages.org/2016/04/18/911-commission-investigators-proposed-examining-possible-political-economic-and-other-influences-on-inquiries-into-saudi-ties-to-attacks/

https://28pages.org/saudi-government-connections-to-911-shouldnt-stay-secret/



So, you are saying that Saudi Arabia was behind 9/11 even though 
al-Qaeda had declared war on the ruling family?


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Re: [Marxism] Question

[Andrew Stewart via Marxism]

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The unredacted 9-11 report has the hijackers getting aid and financing from
both the Saudi diplomatic corps and their network of American theological
groupings centered around Wahhabi-brand mosques and other organizations.
This is pretty well documented in multiple sources.

https://28pages.org/2016/04/18/911-commission-investigators-proposed-examining-possible-political-economic-and-other-influences-on-inquiries-into-saudi-ties-to-attacks/

https://28pages.org/saudi-government-connections-to-911-shouldnt-stay-secret/

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 14:17:31 -0400
From: Louis Proyect <l...@panix.com>
To: marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Question
Message-ID: <ff99dcbd-4910-7fb6-8714-be0086359...@panix.com>
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On 4/17/17 2:11 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:
> You can't imagine the Saudis flying a plane to drop a sarin bomb
> without the approval or knowledge of the US? They did something like
> that a few blocks from your house about 16 years ago now.


Don't confuse the Saudi state with the 9/11 attackers. To start with, it
was Yemenites who dominated the attack, even if they were Saudi citizens
at the time.

For more background on this:

https://louisproyect.org/2016/05/17/was-saudi-arabia-behind-911/

-- 
Best regards,

Andrew Stewart
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Re: [Marxism] Question

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 4/17/17 2:11 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:

You can't imagine the Saudis flying a plane to drop a sarin bomb
without the approval or knowledge of the US? They did something like
that a few blocks from your house about 16 years ago now.



Don't confuse the Saudi state with the 9/11 attackers. To start with, it 
was Yemenites who dominated the attack, even if they were Saudi citizens 
at the time.


For more background on this:

https://louisproyect.org/2016/05/17/was-saudi-arabia-behind-911/
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Re: [Marxism] Question

[Andrew Stewart via Marxism]

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You can't imagine the Saudis flying a plane to drop a sarin bomb without the 
approval or knowledge of the US? They did something like that a few blocks from 
your house about 16 years ago now.

Best regards,
Andrew Stewart 

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 14:57:35 -0400
From: Louis Proyect <l...@panix.com>
To: marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Question
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On 4/16/17 2:46 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:
> 
> I have previously asked whether the Saudis could have done this without
> approval or knowledge of the Americans, which is extremely tenable given
> what we know about the links between Riyadh and other forces in the region
> besides the US. The Wikileaks cache from Podesta showed this clearly.

Done what? Sent secret agents into Khan Sheikhoun to kill a bunch of 
people to create a false flag?

I think it is more likely that the smoking man from X-Files was behind it.
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Re: [Marxism] Question

[mkaradjis . via Marxism]

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Much as the possibility of "the Saudis" being able to get anywhere near a
village in Idlib with chemical weapons,  it is important to remember that
"everything bad in the Middle East is the fault of the Saudis."
Odious as the Saudi regime is (hell, one of the few that comes somewhat
close to the Assadist regime itself in internal repressiveness), can't
alter the fact that this kind of grotesque Saudiphobia is merely an
allowable, respectably left version of Islamophobia.

On 17/04/2017 4:58 AM, "Louis Proyect via Marxism" <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> On 4/16/17 2:46 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:
>
>>
>> I have previously asked whether the Saudis could have done this without
>> approval or knowledge of the Americans, which is extremely tenable given
>> what we know about the links between Riyadh and other forces in the region
>> besides the US. The Wikileaks cache from Podesta showed this clearly.
>>
>
> Done what? Sent secret agents into Khan Sheikhoun to kill a bunch of
> people to create a false flag?
>
> I think it is more likely that the smoking man from X-Files was behind it.
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Re: [Marxism] question

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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>
> Good points John

Of course SAMS and the White Helmets et al. are publicizing the
hospital/clinic attacks. I think solidarity activists can do the same as
part of a coordinated campaign to help such groups. And Syrians interviewed
by various media have said "why doesn't anyone care when 'normal' weapons
kill us?"
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Re: [Marxism] question

[John Reimann via Marxism]

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In response to Chris Slee:

I'm obviously not qualified to answer the technical side of what Postol
wrote, but there is a political side that is even more devastating to his
entire approach. The original claim, coming from Putin & Co., was that the
bomb hit a warehouse where the ingredients to sarin were stored and upon
release these combined to form sarin. By what he writes, Postol is in
effect rejecting this "explanation", but he never deals with it. To me,
this in itself brands what he writes as being entirely unserious and
dishonest.

I also think that we may have allowed ourselves to get too hung up on the
sarin attack in and of itself, allowing the Putin/Assad apologists to
ignore the follow-up bombing of the hospital. I think the two have to be
connected, because the ARE connected. And the second attack thoroughly
refutes the claim that "Assad couldn't have done the sarin attack because
he had nothing to gain from it." But nobody is denying the hospital
bombing; the Assad/Putin apologists are just hoping that everybody simply
forgets about it.

John Reimann

-- 
"No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them."
Asata Shakur
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com and //
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Re: [Marxism] Question

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 4/16/17 2:46 PM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism wrote:


I have previously asked whether the Saudis could have done this without
approval or knowledge of the Americans, which is extremely tenable given
what we know about the links between Riyadh and other forces in the region
besides the US. The Wikileaks cache from Podesta showed this clearly.


Done what? Sent secret agents into Khan Sheikhoun to kill a bunch of 
people to create a false flag?


I think it is more likely that the smoking man from X-Files was behind it.
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Re: [Marxism] Question

[Andrew Stewart via Marxism]

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I have previously asked whether the Saudis could have done this without
approval or knowledge of the Americans, which is extremely tenable given
what we know about the links between Riyadh and other forces in the region
besides the US. The Wikileaks cache from Podesta showed this clearly.

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 17:30:02 -0400
From: Louis Proyect <l...@panix.com>
To: marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Question
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On 4/15/17 5:08 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:
>
>
> Theodor Postol argues that the rebels are responsible for the release
> of sarin at Khan Sheikhoun.  His key argument is that the damaged
> missile found at the site could not have been bent in the particular
> way it was if it was dropped from the air.  Instead he says it was
> damaged by an explosion on the ground.
>

I am plowing through Postol's shit for an article tomorrow--for the time
being focused on his 2013 defense of Assad.

I just took a quick look at his statement on Khan Sheikhoun and don't
quite see anything about a missile being bent. This is what I did see:

The explosive acted on the pipe as a blunt crushing mallet. It drove the
pipe into the ground while at the same time creating the crater. Since
the pipe was filled with sarin, which is an incompressible fluid, as the
pipe was flattened the sarin acted on the walls and ends of the pipe
causing a crack along the length of the pipe and also the failure of the
cap on the back end. This mechanism of dispersal is essentially the same
as hitting a toothpaste tube with a large mallet, which then results in
the tube failing and the toothpaste being blown in many directions
depending on the exact way the toothpaste skin ruptures.

If this is in fact the mechanism used to disperse the sarin, this
indicates that the sarin tube was placed on the ground by individuals on
the ground and not dropped from an airplane.

---

Think about the implications of "the sarin tube was placed on the ground
by individuals on the ground". Is Postol in his right mind? How would
this not get noticed? Also, what is he trying to say? This is a "false
flag" narrative that does not even conform to the Russian alibi.

The main point I will be making is that Postol never once deals with the
technical and infrastructural questions of making and weaponizing sarin
gas. For an MIT professor to evade such questions, especially when he is
peddling a "false flag" story, is unbelievable. But then again, since he
has relied on Maram Susli for advice on chemistry, anything goes.


-- 
Best regards,

Andrew Stewart
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Re: [Marxism] Question

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 4/15/17 5:08 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote:



Theodor Postol argues that the rebels are responsible for the release
of sarin at Khan Sheikhoun.  His key argument is that the damaged
missile found at the site could not have been bent in the particular
way it was if it was dropped from the air.  Instead he says it was
damaged by an explosion on the ground.



I am plowing through Postol's shit for an article tomorrow--for the time 
being focused on his 2013 defense of Assad.


I just took a quick look at his statement on Khan Sheikhoun and don't 
quite see anything about a missile being bent. This is what I did see:


The explosive acted on the pipe as a blunt crushing mallet. It drove the 
pipe into the ground while at the same time creating the crater. Since 
the pipe was filled with sarin, which is an incompressible fluid, as the 
pipe was flattened the sarin acted on the walls and ends of the pipe 
causing a crack along the length of the pipe and also the failure of the 
cap on the back end. This mechanism of dispersal is essentially the same 
as hitting a toothpaste tube with a large mallet, which then results in 
the tube failing and the toothpaste being blown in many directions 
depending on the exact way the toothpaste skin ruptures.


If this is in fact the mechanism used to disperse the sarin, this 
indicates that the sarin tube was placed on the ground by individuals on 
the ground and not dropped from an airplane.


---

Think about the implications of "the sarin tube was placed on the ground 
by individuals on the ground". Is Postol in his right mind? How would 
this not get noticed? Also, what is he trying to say? This is a "false 
flag" narrative that does not even conform to the Russian alibi.


The main point I will be making is that Postol never once deals with the 
technical and infrastructural questions of making and weaponizing sarin 
gas. For an MIT professor to evade such questions, especially when he is 
peddling a "false flag" story, is unbelievable. But then again, since he 
has relied on Maram Susli for advice on chemistry, anything goes.

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[Marxism] Question

[Chris Slee via Marxism]

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Theodor Postol argues that the rebels are responsible for the release of sarin 
at Khan Sheikhoun.  His key argument is that the damaged missile found at the 
site could not have been bent in the particular way it was if it was dropped 
from the air.  Instead he says it was damaged by an explosion on the ground.

Has there been any refutation of this argument by a technical expert  (Sorry if 
this has already been answered and I missed it)

On the whole I tend to believe the Assad regime did it.  If Nusra (or any other 
rebel group) had access to sarin, it is strange that they have not (as far as I 
am aware) used it against Assad's troops or regime controlled areas.  (They 
have used chlorine)

  Still, I would like an answer to the technical question.

Chris Slee

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Re: [Marxism] Question about IZA-Institute of Labor Economics

[Nick Fredman via Marxism]

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I've used technical aspects of their papers for my recent work, which is in
quantitative social program evaluation, a field which basically comes from
econometrics. The education stuff I've seen seems on the progressive side
of education economics, such as a paper I've just looked at for technical
reasons but which was about showing the benefits of universal public
pre-school programs. I had the impression they were along the lines of the
Melbourne Institute, which Australians might know as generally housing more
social democratic economists and often examining education, welfare and
social programs. The latter isn't a private institute but a Melbourne
University department. Sure private institutes often have more of a agenda:
as Gary might know the Grattan Institute here has a definite neo-liberal
agenda on education and other areas. IZA seems massive and across many
areas so might be less consistent, and definitely more intellectually sound
than pseudo-academic hard-right propaganda outfits like the Institute of
Public Affairs here. It seems a pretty tenuous link between the labour
market views of a chair and a study on ethnic interactions in the
classroom. From a quick look it seems sound enough and nothing at all to do
with privatising school or attacking education unions. I'd take it on face
value.

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Gary MacLennan via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *
>
> No information to give Manuel, but I am very interested in the possible
> relevance of this study for Indigenous teaching in Australia. Thank you for
> posting it
>
> comradely
>
> Gary
>
> On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 3:33 AM, Manuel Barrera via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> >   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> > *
> >
> > Hello, I wonder if any on this list can provide information on a
> > German-based foundation, IZA-Institute of Labor Economics. Here is the
> > website: https://www.iza.org/en/about
> >
> > They just published an interesting (sounding) study on the role of "Same
> > race" teachers and educational outcomes, specifically among Black U.S.
> > students (cf. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/
> us/study-black-students-from-
> > poor-families-are-more-likely-to-graduate-high-school-if-
> > they-have-at-least-one-black-teacher/ar-BBzBuQy?li=BBnbcA1). However, in
> > their description they tout their interests as "building a bridge between
> > science and society. We want to facilitate the communication of existing
> > knowledge while at the same time stimulating research to close knowledge
> > gaps. We see this approach as complementary to purely academic research.
> > The transfer of scientific knowledge is an important task which has often
> > been undervalued in traditional research and requires extra efforts."
> They
> > also say they are seeking "to achieve a fair balance between individual
> > wealth and societal wealth. In light of rapidly developing technological
> > innovations and changing social policy needs, the search for effective
> > solutions will remain a continuous challenge."
> >
> >
> > My  interest here is to find on-the-ground background knowledge about
> > their credibility regarding their findings and their intents regarding
> the
> > study I mentioned before about Black students benefiting from Black
> > teachers. I'm sure some of you may simply think the issue is too much
> > "identity politics". If so, just ignore the post and go about your
> > business. Those of you who may some information, I would greatly
> appreciate
> > it.
> >
> > MB
> >
> > [http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBzBuQu.img]<
> > http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/study-black-students-from-
> > poor-families-are-more-likely-to-graduate-high-school-if-
> > they-have-at-least-one-black-teacher/ar-BBzBuQy?li=BBnbcA1>
> >
> > Study: Black students from poor families are more likely to graduate high
> > school if they have at least one black teacher > us/news/us/study-black-students-from-poor-families-
> > 

Re: [Marxism] Question about IZA-Institute of Labor Economics

[Gulf Mann via Marxism]

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Sounds to me like  a right-wing, anti-labor org pushing racial segregation
under the guise of "identity politics".

On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 2:49 PM, Manuel Barrera via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
>
>
> "Hello, I wonder if any on this list can provide information on a
> German-based foundation, IZA-Institute of Labor Economics."
> P.S. I found some of this information myself. IZA is funded by an
> apparently a foundation in Germany that supports deregulation of labor laws
> ultimately aimed at removing the minimum wage and other fair labor
> practices in Europe (mostly Germany). It is led by Klaus Zumwinkel, former
> CEO of Deustche Post and forced to resign for tax evasion. WSWS reported
> some of that recently https://www.wsws.org/en/
> articles/2015/04/13/germ-a13.html (no endorsement of WSWS In Any Way
> intended) and is also reported in the business journal, Hansblatt Global
> (behind a pay wall, however, a brief abstract available at
> https://global.handelsblatt.com/companies-markets/
> deutsche-posts-second-class-system-500513
>
> Thanks anyway
>
>
> [https://global.handelsblatt.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/
> 04/D-Post-HQ-GettyImages.jpg] com/companies-markets/deutsche-posts-second-class-system-500513>
>
> Deutsche Post’s Second-Class System – Handelsblatt Global handelsblatt.com/companies-markets/deutsche-posts-second-
> class-system-500513>
> global.handelsblatt.com
> SVI, a subsidiary of Deutsche Post, could face a fine and criminal
> proceedings if it is found to have illegally provided Deutsche Post with
> temporary workers ...
>
>
> [http://www.wsws.org/img/open-graph-icon.png] wsws.org/en/articles/2015/04/13/germ-a13.html>
>
> German postal workers strike against outsourcing of jobs ...<
> https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/04/13/germ-a13.html>
> www.wsws.org
> World Socialist Web Site wsws.org Published by the International
> Committee of the Fourth International (ICFI)
>
>
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[Marxism] Question about IZA-Institute of Labor Economics

[Manuel Barrera via Marxism]

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Hello, I wonder if any on this list can provide information on a German-based 
foundation, IZA-Institute of Labor Economics. Here is the website: 
https://www.iza.org/en/about

They just published an interesting (sounding) study on the role of "Same race" 
teachers and educational outcomes, specifically among Black U.S. students (cf. 
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/study-black-students-from-poor-families-are-more-likely-to-graduate-high-school-if-they-have-at-least-one-black-teacher/ar-BBzBuQy?li=BBnbcA1).
 However, in their description they tout their interests as "building a bridge 
between science and society. We want to facilitate the communication of 
existing knowledge while at the same time stimulating research to close 
knowledge gaps. We see this approach as complementary to purely academic 
research. The transfer of scientific knowledge is an important task which has 
often been undervalued in traditional research and requires extra efforts." 
They also say they are seeking "to achieve a fair balance between individual 
wealth and societal wealth. In light of rapidly developing technological 
innovations and changing social policy needs, the search for eff
 ective solutions will remain a continuous challenge."


My  interest here is to find on-the-ground background knowledge about their 
credibility regarding their findings and their intents regarding the study I 
mentioned before about Black students benefiting from Black teachers. I'm sure 
some of you may simply think the issue is too much "identity politics". If so, 
just ignore the post and go about your business. Those of you who may some 
information, I would greatly appreciate it.

MB

[http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBzBuQu.img]

Study: Black students from poor families are more likely to graduate high 
school if they have at least one black 
teacher
www.msn.com
The results are most marked for male African American students from very 
low-income families, the Johns Hopkins research finds.


IZA - Institute of Labor Economics
www.iza.org
IZA is an independent economic research institute that conducts research in 
labor economics and offers evidence-based policy advice on labor market issues.




Manuel Barrera, PhD
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[Marxism] question re Cuba

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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re Louis's piece:
http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/state_and_revolution/cuba.htm
Not surprisingly I love the parts about centralized accounting and control.
But - and maybe I missed it - what would have been the role of workers' and
peasants' councils at each level (local to national) in developing,
implementing and checking the planning made possible by such use of data?
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Re: [Marxism] question re mail etiquette

[Les Schaffer via Marxism]

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no it does not mean that.

on the other hand, if you want to clip out text before sending you have 
to click the three dots and then trim text.


Les


On 10/21/2016 11:14 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote:

in gmail there's an icon with three dots saying "show trimmed text." If you
don't click it, does that mean the recipients don't get whatever is hidden?
Asking obviously because of our space issues.


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[Marxism] question re mail etiquette

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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in gmail there's an icon with three dots saying "show trimmed text." If you
don't click it, does that mean the recipients don't get whatever is hidden?
Asking obviously because of our space issues.
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Re: [Marxism] question re social media etiquette

[Dennis Brasky via Marxism]

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He attacked my pro-US Green Party position on FB as aiding the fascist,
Islamophobic Trump forces.

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 8:56 AM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>
>
> A Facebook friend just posted a long status on Turkey by Sam Charles Hamad,
> basically an apologia for Erdogan and the AKP, whitewashing his crimes, and
> holding him up as democracy's best bet in the country.
>
> If this sounds familiar it's because Hamad used the same method when
> analyzing Egypt (i.e. pandering to Morsi as democracy's best hope).
> In the case of Egypt, Sam also viciously denounced those who asserted the
> need for the country's workers to take the lead. He hasn't yet done so
> regarding Turkey (although workers are noticeably absent from his
> analysis), but I'm sure he'll get there.
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] question re social media etiquette

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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Thanks for the clarification Louis. Here's what Hamad wrote:

"I genuinely give up. I'm not a fan of Erdogan, though I've been accused by
idiots of being a supporter and member of the AKP, and I actually, much to
the chagrin of some of my pro-AKP comrades (and I do regard them as
comrades of the first class), supported the protests in Taksim Square and
Gezi Park. My view on the AKP has never been that they've slid into petty
authoritarianism because they're 'Islamist', as they just simply are not in
governmental or even ideological terms 'Islamist' by any reasonable
definition of that term, as in those who wish to see sharia as the sole
source of law and rule by the ulama. They are a socially conservative party
rooted in social classes that were for decades locked out of Turkish
politics and culture by various different 'secular' elites. Those who
conjure the spectre of 'Islamism' regarding the AKP are almost certainly
doing so to cynically exploit Islamophobia for political reasons - it has
absolutely no veracity in the manner in which they've governed as a party.
The problem was when the great awakening of democracy occurred within
Turkey, its agents were not going to let it go. They didn't want to see a
return to the bad old days when their cultural values and when their
political rights were curtailed and sneered at - so they became one of the
most loyal bases of any democratic political party in the world. The
opposition to the AKP has been dismal over the course of its rule, which
has meant that the AKP has essentially become the only truly national party
in Turkey, commanding massive shares of the vote even at its lowest points
and garnering the support not just of socially conservative Turks, but an
even wider and varied base - it has managed even to gain 50% of the vote
among Kurds. Indeed, the accusations of them being 'Islamists', which is an
obsession of some parts of the opposition and much of the US and European
right, is seen by the AKP base as evidence of these forces' will to
disenfranchise them and curtail their political and cultural agency as
Muslims. For those who know anything about Turkish history, they have very
good reason to fear this.
Those who are squeamish over the way the Turkish government are dealing
with the coupists might want to bear in mid that over 100 Turkish civilians
defending democracy were murdered by these fascists - imagine the
atrocities that would've been necessary had the coup succeeded in smashing
democracy? Think of Rabaa and Nadha. Think of the constant brutality of the
Egyptian counter-revolution. Those Turks throwing up the R4BIA four finger
salute certainly know exactly what I mean here.
But the popularity of the AKP has led to problems with the leadership and
an increasing authoritarianism that even some AKP supporters have openly
criticised. The AKP leadership, not all of them, but certainly the
pro-Erdogan 'wing, are a perfect vindication of the logic behind that old
saying about absolute power corrupting absolutely - but the power they have
gained has been through the ballot box. And they have not yet been
corrupted absolutely - one of the key features of the great swell of
popular activity against the recent failed putsch was the lack of pictures
of Erdogan. Even AKP supporters knew that what was happening during the
putsch was bigger than Erdogan and bigger than the AKP - it was a battle
for the soul of Turkey. A fight against the return to the days where
democracy was despised and the aspiration of the many were so firmly
discarded in favour for the interests of the few. Where the military
reigned supreme.
I have nothing but resolute opposition to any authoritarianism practiced by
Erdogan and the AKP, but the fact is, as we saw from the election wherein
the AKP failed to get an overall majority, they can still be removed from
power and challenged democratically. However, hope for me lies in the base
of the AKP. Those politicised by their own historic struggles against
authoritarianism and those who have, more than any other country in the
world, pushed their party towards showing solidarity with Palestinians,
with pro-democracy Egyptians (until this day, Turkey recognises Mohamed
Morsi as the legitimate president) and, more importantly through the sheer
scale of the events, aiding the victims of Assad, Iran and Russia's terror
in Syria. It's the base of the AKP that drive this - not these myths of
Erdogan's 'Neo-Ottomanism' or, indeed, the idea that he was particularly
averse to Assad, whom he once called a friend (though Erdogan and many of
his comrades were of course once jailed for their beliefs - so it's also
not true to say 

Re: [Marxism] question re social media etiquette

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 7/21/16 8:56 AM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote:

Is it acceptable to post someone's Facebook status on a public list?


Usually they don't care but about 3 years ago or so I was taken to task 
by Corey Robin by crossposting something from his timeline here. I was 
startled frankly that he read Marxmail and also annoyed that he would 
think that his rights had been violated. My feeling is that if you post 
something on the Net, you should expect it to be crossposted. The only 
exception to that rule is email.

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[Marxism] question re social media etiquette

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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A Facebook friend just posted a long status on Turkey by Sam Charles Hamad,
basically an apologia for Erdogan and the AKP, whitewashing his crimes, and
holding him up as democracy's best bet in the country.

If this sounds familiar it's because Hamad used the same method when
analyzing Egypt (i.e. pandering to Morsi as democracy's best hope).
In the case of Egypt, Sam also viciously denounced those who asserted the
need for the country's workers to take the lead. He hasn't yet done so
regarding Turkey (although workers are noticeably absent from his
analysis), but I'm sure he'll get there.

So, here's the etiquette question:

Is it acceptable to post someone's Facebook status on a public list? I ask
both as a general rule and in circumstances like mine where the author has
blocked me.
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[Marxism] question re Panama Papers

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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Is there any analysis in them, or just leaked files?
I ask because clearly we are headed toward a situation akin to that of
2008; i.e. just as then we had to make clear it wasn't primarily a
"financial" crisis, but rather one playing out in the financial sphere
because of longer-term dynamics of capital, so today we will have to combat
conspiracy theories and explain how those same dynamics, and basic class
structures, allowed this admittedly gigantic wave of corruption to flourish.
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[Marxism] Question regarding consistent opposition to Western imperialist intervention

[Jeff via Marxism]

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On Tue, June 16, 2015 17:36, Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote:

 This leads to a key question that has been nagging at the left ever
 since NATO intervened in Libya. Do we automatically oppose any armed
 body that is being supported by imperialist intervention?

Well I don't think that's the right question, and I don't think we should
really do anything automatically, that is, according to a formula
without considering the concrete situation, context and all. Also, there
is a big difference between not opposing something and becoming a party to
it let alone cheerleaders for its instigators.

Sadly, after having posed the question in these mechanical terms, it
appears that Louis' answer is yes:

 My view is that American intervention should be opposed on a consistent
 basis.

In other words automatically, if I'm to understand the relationship of
this remark to the previously posed question. (And if my understanding is
wrong, then I think the piece needs to be rewritten for clarification.) I
see a few problems with that. First it makes us all hypocrites because
AFAIK no one on this list or among the Stalinist or pro-Assad left is
actively engaged in opposing what is literally a US air war in Iraq and
Syria over most of the last year. Unless by oppose you mean just writing
articles which reach a relative handful (mainly the far left) of people;
this can hardly be called agitation or action. Now, I agree with many of
those articles myself, for instance about how the US intervention may be
causing more harm than good, also targets al-Nusra and other revolutionary
forces, sets a bad precedent, etc. But if I really wanted to oppose them
(in the usual sense of the term) then I would be calling them the enemy
in regards to their bombing of ISIS and would organize demonstrations
calling upon them to stop hurting poor ISIS. I'm not doing that because I
don't take that position, and judging by their actions no one else on the
left does either.

And among other more abstract objections, let me just point out the
following scenario (which is not at all unlikely) and the consequences of
a formula that is reduced to American intervention should be opposed on a
consistent basis. Suppose the revolution has defeated the government
leaving a power struggle between democrats and Jihadists (and perhaps
a another force or two). I would oppose American intervention for obvious
reasons, but it would likely happen anyway. It could well turn out that
the US and we are supporting the same side. I may well argue within the
revolutionary ranks against dependence on or any alliance with the
Americans. But just like with the current US war nominally against ISIS, I
probably wouldn't insist that American military assistance to our side,
whether it's useful or not, has to end. Even if I were representing the
largest left party in the world, I'd be foolish to demand that they have
to choose between support from us or from the Americans -- if I did they
would likely choose the side with the military power for pragmatic
reasons.

Even worse is the original form of Louis' question: Do we automatically
oppose any armed body that is being supported by imperialist
intervention? If the answer (as it appears to be) is yes, then it not
only means that we oppose the imperialist role, but oppose the armed body
(the revolutionaries!) who are being supported by that imperialist
intervention. That literal reading of Louis' post is so absurd that I will
assume he was just sloppy with his wording.

We can do all we want with propaganda and analysis. But when one talks
about opposing a reality on the ground which isn't the burning question,
then it can mean sitting on the sidelines of, if not actively sabotaging
the efforts of the revolutionaries we support.

- Jeff


P.S. Also, this caveat is curious:

If it can be established as a
 red line that the American military only be used to defend American
 territory from attack

Now why would I want to give the American (or any) military even that much
legitimacy? If there were a revolution in the US, then according to the
ruling class American territory would be under attack (by the armed
workers, surely citing the involvement of some outside agitators) and
you can bet the military would be used as soon as the normal police proved
insufficient. Thus without crossing the red line?





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[Marxism] question re production and climate change

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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I know there are estimates out there of how much carbon emissions must be
decreased by given dates to avoid or delay climate change tipping points.

But are there also estimates of what that would mean in terms of production
shifts? E.g. not just how much coal etc. would have to be left in the
ground, and not abstract (if essential) admonitions to switch to mass
transit and so on.

But are there actual estimates of what quantative shifts in all the key
industries and agricultural sectors, and re-employment in service sectors,
would add up to the required emissions decrease? Obviously there's an
infinite number of ways to solve that problem mathematically; the point of
the question is how to pick a handful of scenarios, with varying amounts
allotted to each industry, that would make possible an informed discussion
and voting process among worker, farmer and neighborhood councils locally
and globally.

All of this obviously assumes the seizure of all those resources and
industry from their current masters.
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Re: [Marxism] question re Israeli training of US cops

[Jim Farmelant via Marxism]

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Here's some info, with links, from an impeccably pro-Zionist source.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/homeland.html

 

Jim Farmelant
http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant
http://www.foxymath.com 
Learn or Review Basic Math


-- Original Message --
From: Andrew Pollack via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu
Subject: [Marxism] question re Israeli training of US cops
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 12:10:45 -0400

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Rania Khalek has a new, good article on Baltimore/Israel policing parallels
-- and collaboration. The headline, and a section in the second half,
emphasizes the latter, i.e. that many US police departments have sent
personnel to Israel for training:
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/rania-khalek/israeli-trained-police-invade-baltimore-crackdown-black-lives-matter
Now here's the question: As far as I know, the police/army suppression of
riots in the '60s occurred without any training of US forces by Israel, and
yet were obviously equally bloody, vicious and gratuitous in use of
violence. Same further back in US history.
I raise this because when Ferguson jumped off some seemed to claim that
without Zionist training our pigs wouldn't have been as repressive and
well-armed, or at least not as much so.
Frankly that seems like hogwash to me.
But the question then is why is this training and collaboration happening?
My guess is that a) they're junkets, i.e. a good way to pad the
departments' budgets and show the boys a good time, and b) more
importantly, that the Zionists have more training in recent years in crowd
control and thus are a little sharper on their game (i.e. the components
of the Empire are leapfrogging each other in combat readiness and
efficiency).
Thoughts?
ps: for a good overview of the fire last time, see:
http://socialistworker.org/2015/05/06/rebellion-and-the-black-working-class
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High School Yearbooks
View Class Yearbooks Online Free. Reminisce  Buy a Reprint Today!
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Re: [Marxism] question re Israeli training of US cops

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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I'd also point out that there is an analogous phenomenon taking place
wherein the US, drawing down some of its forces abroad, is beginning to use
the same equipment and militarization on domestic police. In the same way
Israel and its lobbyists wanted to show that they were on the forefront of
the US war on terror in the early 2000s, they are now trying to jump on the
same security apparatus bandwagon as it begins to aim more domestically.

- Amith

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 6:20 PM, Joseph Catron via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

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 *

 I would add c): It's a good way for local politicians, pretty much all
 of whom aspire to higher office, to suck up to the Israel lobby at
 minimal cost to themselves. Here's another example of the same dynamic
 at work in Baltimore:

 http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/baltimore-confronting-unchallenged

 Fleshing out b), the Zionist military has spent decades innovating new
 ways to surveil populations. The NYPD's supposedly-disbanded
 Demographics Unit was modeled in part on how Israeli authorities
 operate in the West Bank, a former police official said.


 http://www.ap.org/Content/AP-In-The-News/2011/With-CIA-help-NYPD-moves-covertly-in-Muslim-areas

 And with a lot of police departments blending their
 counter-terrorism and protest policing functions, it stands to
 reason that some might look to Tel Aviv, for which they've never been
 distinguishable, for pointers.


 http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/how-the-nypds-counter-terror-apparatus-is-being-turned-on-police-protesters-119
 http://gothamist.com/2015/01/30/well_just_use_handguns.php

 But I don't know how much of that kind of collaboration takes place on
 these junkets organized and publicized by ostensibly private-sector
 lobby groups, which always reek of political theater to me.

 --
 Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure
 mægen lytlað.

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Re: [Marxism] question re Israeli training of US cops

[Joseph Catron via Marxism]

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I would add c): It's a good way for local politicians, pretty much all
of whom aspire to higher office, to suck up to the Israel lobby at
minimal cost to themselves. Here's another example of the same dynamic
at work in Baltimore:

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/baltimore-confronting-unchallenged

Fleshing out b), the Zionist military has spent decades innovating new
ways to surveil populations. The NYPD's supposedly-disbanded
Demographics Unit was modeled in part on how Israeli authorities
operate in the West Bank, a former police official said.

http://www.ap.org/Content/AP-In-The-News/2011/With-CIA-help-NYPD-moves-covertly-in-Muslim-areas

And with a lot of police departments blending their
counter-terrorism and protest policing functions, it stands to
reason that some might look to Tel Aviv, for which they've never been
distinguishable, for pointers.

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/how-the-nypds-counter-terror-apparatus-is-being-turned-on-police-protesters-119
http://gothamist.com/2015/01/30/well_just_use_handguns.php

But I don't know how much of that kind of collaboration takes place on
these junkets organized and publicized by ostensibly private-sector
lobby groups, which always reek of political theater to me.

-- 
Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure
mægen lytlað.

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[Marxism] question re Israeli training of US cops

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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Rania Khalek has a new, good article on Baltimore/Israel policing parallels
-- and collaboration. The headline, and a section in the second half,
emphasizes the latter, i.e. that many US police departments have sent
personnel to Israel for training:
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/rania-khalek/israeli-trained-police-invade-baltimore-crackdown-black-lives-matter
Now here's the question: As far as I know, the police/army suppression of
riots in the '60s occurred without any training of US forces by Israel, and
yet were obviously equally bloody, vicious and gratuitous in use of
violence. Same further back in US history.
I raise this because when Ferguson jumped off some seemed to claim that
without Zionist training our pigs wouldn't have been as repressive and
well-armed, or at least not as much so.
Frankly that seems like hogwash to me.
But the question then is why is this training and collaboration happening?
My guess is that a) they're junkets, i.e. a good way to pad the
departments' budgets and show the boys a good time, and b) more
importantly, that the Zionists have more training in recent years in crowd
control and thus are a little sharper on their game (i.e. the components
of the Empire are leapfrogging each other in combat readiness and
efficiency).
Thoughts?
ps: for a good overview of the fire last time, see:
http://socialistworker.org/2015/05/06/rebellion-and-the-black-working-class
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Re: [Marxism] question re Israeli training of US cops

[Dennis Brasky via Marxism]

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I'm guessing option b.


On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 12:10 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:



 But the question then is why is this training and collaboration happening?
 My guess is that a) they're junkets, i.e. a good way to pad the
 departments' budgets and show the boys a good time, and b) more
 importantly, that the Zionists have more training in recent years in crowd
 control and thus are a little sharper on their game (i.e. the components
 of the Empire are leapfrogging each other in combat readiness and
 efficiency).
 Thoughts?

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[Marxism] Question re deflation

[Thomas F Barton via Marxism]

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Wall St. Journal has been reporting for some time on Dangers Of Deflation, 
esp. in Eurozone.

Has anything been written recently by Maraxists on whether continuing reduction 
of variable and constant capital embodied in commodities, thanks to 
ever-improving technical advances in production, contributes to this 
deflation?

If the prices of commodities in general fall, and wages remain the same, 
without inflation, is this an increase in wages?

T
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Re: [Marxism] Question on Brenner Thesis

[Ed George via Marxism]

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Mark Lause:

‘I've raised this question myself several times and also felt like I 
must be missing something.


‘I've never actually gotten an answer that persuaded me that anything 
was at stake other than conflicting ideas of how to define capitalism.’




The debate on the transition from feudalism to capitalism is important 
in itself in that it rests of the ability (or otherwise) of historical 
materialism to explain actual historical events and processes.


In addition to this, insofar as it does address ‘what capitalism is’, 
how it comes into being, how it operates, how it might be superseded, 
the debate and the issues it raises are of practical importance now for 
Marxists (and for people who might not think of themselves as Marxists) 
but who are engaged in the struggle for a better – non/post-capitalist – 
world.



@edwardbgeorge

http://readingmarx.wordpress.com/
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Re: [Marxism] Question on Brenner Thesis

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 12/10/14 3:41 AM, Ed George via Marxism wrote:


In addition to this, insofar as it does address ‘what capitalism is’,
how it comes into being, how it operates, how it might be superseded,
the debate and the issues it raises are of practical importance now for
Marxists (and for people who might not think of themselves as Marxists)
but who are engaged in the struggle for a better – non/post-capitalist –
world.


I think the most forceful explanation of the political ramifications 
came from Brenner himself in a NLR article )even if it is totally 
wrongheaded), unfortunately behind a paywall. The final two paragraphs 
state:


	Most directly, of course, the notion of the ‘development of 
underdevelopment’ opens the way to third-worldist ideology. From the 
conclusion that development occurred only in the absence of links with 
accumulating capitalism in the metropolis, it can be only a short step 
to the strategy of semi-autarkic socialist development. Then the utopia 
of socialism in one country replaces that of the bourgeois 
revolution—one moreover, which is buttressed by the assertion that the 
revolution against capitalism can come only from the periphery, since 
the proletariat of the core has been largely bought off as a consequence 
of the transfer of surplus from the periphery to the core. Such a 
perspective must tend to minimize the degree to which any significant 
national development of the productive forces depends today upon a close 
connection with the international division of labour (although such 
economic advance is not, of course, determined by such a connection). It 
must, consequently, tend to overlook the pressures to external political 
compromise and internal political degeneration bound up with that 
involvement in—and dependence upon—the capitalist world market which is 
necessary for development. Such pressures are indeed present from the 
start, due to the requirement to extract surpluses for development, in 
the absence of advanced means of production, through the methods of 
increasing absolute surplus labour.


	On the other hand, this perspective must also minimize the extent to 
which capitalism’s post-war success in developing the productive forces 
specific to the metropolis provided the material basis for (though it 
did not determine) the decline of radical working-class movements and 
consciousness in the post-war period. It must consequently minimize the 
potentialities opened up by the current economic impasse of capitalism 
for working-class political action in the advanced industrial countries. 
Most crucially, perhaps, this perspective must tend to play down the 
degree to which the concrete inter-relationships, however tenuous and 
partial, recently forged by the rising revolutionary movements of the 
working class and oppressed peoples in Portugal and Southern Africa may 
be taken to mark a break—to foreshadow the rebirth of international 
solidarity. The necessary interdependence between the revolutionary 
movements at the ‘weakest link’ and in the metropolitan heartlands of 
capitalism was a central postulate in the strategic thinking of Lenin, 
Trotsky and the other leading revolutionaries in the last great period 
of international socialist revolution. With regard to this basic 
proposition, nothing has changed to this day.


---

In other words, Brenner's article was an attack on the Monthly Review 
and everything it stood for. The article is filled with arrogant 
dismissals of Paul Sweezy and all the people who contributed to a third 
worldist orientation over the years, including Andre Gunder Frank who 
despite whatever theoretical differences I had with him was a 
revolutionary to the marrow of his bones.


Meanwhile, Brenner--despite his fire-breathing radical rhetoric--urged a 
vote for Kerry in 2004. (http://www.solidarity-us.org/node/379)


For those who have been on Marxmail for a while and the list that 
preceded it, you are probably aware that I became motivated to examine 
these issues after running into Jim Blaut, a former subscriber who died 
in 2000.


Blaut devoted a chapter to Brenner in 8 Eurocentric Historians, the 
second in planned trilogy that was cut short by his death. The last 
installment was to be a proposal on how to do history that was not 
Eurocentric.


Fortunately, that chapter can be read online here: 
http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/Blaut/brenner.htm. These are the 
opening paragraphs:


	Robert Brenner is a Marxist, a follower of one tradition in Marxism 
that is as diffusionist, as Eurocentric, as most conservative positions. 
I cannot here offer an explanation for this curious phenomenon: a 

Re: [Marxism] Question on Brenner Thesis

[Ed George via Marxism]

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Although it's old, for political context this by Louis Proyect is very 
useful: 
http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/origins/brenner_thesis.htm. 
Louis' archived material related to Brenner is here: 
http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/origins.htm and here: 
http://louisproyect.org/category/transition-debate/. There's enough 
material here (whether you agree with it or not) to orientate yourself 
in relation to the political import of the debate.



@edwardbgeorge

http://readingmarx.wordpress.com/
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Re: [Marxism] Question on Brenner Thesis

[Mark Lause via Marxism]

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I've raised this question myself several times and also felt like I must be
missing something.

I've never actually gotten an answer that persuaded me that anything was at
stake other than conflicting ideas of how to define capitalism.

ML
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Re: [Marxism] Question on Brenner Thesis

[Charlie via Marxism]

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It is a way to debate the historical materialist thesis that capitalism 
runs into a barrier of its own making - with obvious political 
implications - in such a way as to avoid emphasis on those implications.


The situation is clearer, and more fruitful in theoretical results, if 
you go back to round one of this controversy, Maurice Dobbs versus Paul 
Sweezy.


Mark L wrote:


I've never actually gotten an answer that persuaded me that anything was 
at stake other than conflicting ideas of how to define capitalism.



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[Marxism] Question on Brenner Thesis

[Gregory Adler via Marxism]

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At the risk of being seen as a philistine can someone on the list either
explain or point to something which concisely explains what is at stake in
this dispute  i.e. what does ones position vis a vis the thesis mean if
anything for ones political positions on the viability or otherwise of
capitalism , reform or revolution , forms of organization to enhance
political struggle etc, etc
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[Marxism] Question, re: Role of Singapore?

[Allen Ruff via Marxism]

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Wondering if anyone out there can suggest some readings on the role of 
Singapore as a center of finance in the global circuits of capital?  
Especially interested, in regard to the extraction and flows of gas, oil 
and other energy across Asia, and the Pacific.


Thanks,
-Allen

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Re: [Marxism] Question, re: Role of Singapore?

[Marv Gandall via Marxism]

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On Nov 13, 2014, at 5:05 PM, Allen Ruff via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

 Wondering if anyone out there can suggest some readings on the role of 
 Singapore as a center of finance in the global circuits of capital?  
 Especially interested, in regard to the extraction and flows of gas, oil and 
 other energy across Asia, and the Pacific.

This might be helpful as a start, Allen. From the Financial Times last month. 
Note that “Singapore has attracted dozens of global commodity trading firms, 
exploiting its position as the world’s largest bunkering port, straddling sea 
lanes to and from commodity-hungry China. Gunvor, the world’s fourth-biggest 
oil trader, has added about 20 per cent to its staff in Singapore in the past 
nine months…Commodity derivatives are the fastest-growing part of business on 
SGX, the Singapore exchange.” There’s undoubtedly more of what you’re looking 
for in the IMF study alluded to in the report.

*   *   *

Singapore jostles with Hong Kong for financial crown
By Jeremy Grant in Singapore
Financial Times
October 16 2014

When Michael Milken, pioneer of the 1980s junk bond market, held the first 
Asia-based conference of the Milken Institute last month, he decided to do it 
in Singapore – where he had established a branch of his think-tank a year 
earlier.

The choice of the Asian city state was striking. Hong Kong might have been a 
more obvious location, given its proximity to China, the world’s second-biggest 
economy and home to a financial centre that is the gateway in and out of the 
country’s rapidly maturing capital market.

But Mr Milken says that many of the institute’s “stakeholders and partners” – 
banks, insurance companies, private equity groups, asset managers and 
institutional investors – already had senior executives for Asia based in 
Singapore.

“One of the reasons why we chose Singapore is because we felt that it could be 
a symbol for Asia and what the standards – be they legal, accounting, financial 
or regulatory – could be for the rest of Asia,” Mr Milken says.

Singapore is unlikely to have featured in Mr Milken’s calculations as recently 
as five years ago.

However, its rapid rise as the region’s largest centre for both commodity and 
foreign exchange trading – as well as its growth as a wealth management hub – 
has created a new competitive dynamic in Asia, which bankers in western 
financial capitals are watching closely.

“Singapore is really well-positioned to compete with Hong Kong,” says Glenn 
Hubbard, dean of Columbia Business School. “If you think about transparency, 
openness and business integrity Singapore has all that in spades.”

Rivalry between the two cities also highlights how financial centres in Asia 
have made their mark since the 2008 financial crisis forced a punishing process 
of deleverage and regulatory reform on London and New York.

While both western centres are again on the rise, increasing wealth generation 
in Asia inevitably raises the question of which centres in Asia are likely to 
dominate what is still the world’s fastest-growing economic bloc.

Hong Kong’s financial centre was well-established as an Asian outpost of the 
City of London even as Singapore was only starting to build, from scratch, an 
Asian dollar market in the 1960s.

Today it remains unchallenged in Asia in terms of equities and initial public 
offerings. The territory ranks third after New York and London so far this year 
with 67 new listings, valued at $17.6bn, while Singapore trails at 19th, with a 
mere 8 listings worth $1.9bn, according to Dealogic.

That position will be bolstered by the launch next month of Shanghai-Hong Kong 
Stock Connect, which promises to allow for the first time Hong Kong and foreign 
investors with offshore renminbi to access the Shanghai market.

“Hong Kong shouldn’t be recognised as just a centre for equities; it should be 
seen as a much wider access to a range of financial assets to China overall,” 
says Sean Darby, Hong Kong-based global head of equity strategy at Jefferies, 
the US investment bank.

But Singapore has attracted dozens of global commodity trading firms, 
exploiting its position as the world’s largest bunkering port, straddling sea 
lanes to and from commodity-hungry China. Gunvor, the world’s fourth-biggest 
oil trader, has added about 20 per cent to its staff in Singapore in the past 
nine months.

Part of the attraction has been corporate tax rates on offer that are lower 
than the basic rate of 17 per cent, compared with 16.5 per cent in Hong Kong, 
where there is a much smaller set of commodity traders focused mostly on base 
metals.

Commodity derivatives 

Re: [Marxism] Question about People's Climate March

[Andrew Pollack via Marxism]

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The march is definitely going to be huge. I'm basing that on the mobilizing
meeting I attended and on discussions and announcements of it, and of
particular contingents, on many sites and lists.
I concur with Joe and Patrick about the event's politics, both the vapidity
of the official program, but also the openings for raising more advanced
politics (and in that regard the efforts in the last couple years of
revolutionaries united in the System Change Not Climate Change coalition
are to be lauded).

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 7:01 PM, Patrick Bond via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

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 These are good observations, i.e. that there is a tendency to a vapid
 'climate action' approach which puts people in the streets with no message,
 no coherent demands, no final rally. The organizers of this march have
 succumbed to this tendency.

 Maybe the worst of these is the NYC subway advert from Avaaz: What puts
 hipsters and bankers in the same boat? (where boat is x-ed out and
 replaced by 'march')

 Yikes, the tragedy of the banker 'solution' to climate in the Kyoto
 Protocol (thanks especially to Al Gore), carbon trading, continues.

 But the alternative - 'climate justice' - is well advanced, albeit going
 through a relative lull at global scale after peaking five years ago in
 Copenhagen. The Friday-Saturday events with more serious political critique
 will include a great new book about climate and capitalism -
 http://thischangeseverything.org/ - from Naomi Klein and many other
 speakers at http://convergeforclimate.org/ (if you come, please say hi on
 the 20th all afternoon at Graffiti Church, 205 E 7th St where I'll be with
 several African comrades).

 If you have time next Thursday, The Global Campaign to Demand Climate
 Justice is co-convening a Public Forum featuring Southern Voices on
 Climate Justice, 2:30 to 5:00 pm at the YMCA Vanderbilt.

 Then I gather the following Monday-Tuesday will include direct action,
 including on Wall Street, as well as excellent Global South activists from
 the US claiming Our Power: http://www.ourpowercampaign.
 org/peoples-climate-justice-summit/

 See you there!
 Patrick

 
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Re: [Marxism] Question about People's Climate March

[John Lane via Marxism]

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I was on a call about the PCM a month or so ago that included one of the
organizers and I was thoroughly unimpressed. Lots of talk about how great
it was that the opportunity to have a demonstration before a UN conference
on climate change was being taken, but almost no details about the march
itself or what they intended to accomplish. Maybe things have changed since
then but at that time they didn't even have a route approved!

Once it came time for QA there was very little in the way of clarification
about the event. Most of the people asking questions were concerned with
whether there would be coordinated events elsewhere in the country and
nobody who organized the call had any idea. T-shirts will be available
was the response.

Then I had a chance to ask a question; given that climate change is a
global issue and that this event is planned to coincide with a meeting at
the UN, what are you doing to facilitate international participation in
NYC? The response was a long, awkward silence followed by an ataboy for
asking a good question. Nobody had thought that international participation
might be important or worthwhile to cultivate, though there are similar
marches planned in Manchester and London now.

When I poked around the website after the call my questions were left
unanswered. I have see very little reason to believe that much will come of
it, but could be surprised. I am *highly* sceptical that hundreds of
thousands of marchers will turn out, as the organizer seemed to suggest on
that call.

The PCM strikes me as an action looking for a cause. No clear aims and no
plan for the next step.
On Sep 10, 2014 10:56 PM, Glenn Kissack via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

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 I’ll be joining other members of my faculty union on Sunday,
 September 21 for the People’s Climate March, during the UN conference on
 climate change. It should be very large, with people coming from all over
 the country. 70 unions and 1000 organizations have endorsed the march. Many
 tens of thousands — maybe more — will be there.

 http://peoplesclimate.org/march/

 Yet I know very little about the leadership of the march, what its
 demands are, or what its analysis is of the ecological crisis we face. I’ve
 been told that Bill McKibben and his 350.org initiated the event, but
 others are now involved. As for demands, there don’t seem to be any. And
 for analysis, I couldn’t find anything at the website.

 I was wondering if members of this list had thoughts about PCM —
 its leadership, politics, future.

 Thanks,
 Glenn




 
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Re: [Marxism] Question about People's Climate March

[Joseph Catron via Marxism]

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Having followed the preparations absentmindedly, it strikes me as something
akin to the anti-summit protests a little over a decade ago, or perhaps
Occupy, with too many people and organizations to form any coherent agenda.

Which is not a bad thing, of course. (It's not a good thing either, but
it's all we'll get this year or the next.) In the best case scenario, a
number of different groups will use the energy of the mobilization to push
forward in more concrete ways, as happened when protesters went their own
ways, many forming or revitalizing hundreds of different organizations,
after the summit protests fizzled.

Right now, we simply can't expect sustained, coherent efforts, in any sort
of radical direction, from presently-existing bodies capable of getting
hundreds of thousands onto the streets. C'est la vie. Make the most of what
limited mass struggle exists, with an eye towards how you'll keep the best
part of it going into the future.

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Glenn Kissack via Marxism 
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote:

I was wondering if members of this list had thoughts about PCM — its
 leadership, politics, future.


-- 
Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen
lytlað.

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[Marxism] Question about People's Climate March

[Glenn Kissack via Marxism]

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==


I’ll be joining other members of my faculty union on Sunday, September 
21 for the People’s Climate March, during the UN conference on climate change. 
It should be very large, with people coming from all over the country. 70 
unions and 1000 organizations have endorsed the march. Many tens of thousands — 
maybe more — will be there.

http://peoplesclimate.org/march/

Yet I know very little about the leadership of the march, what its 
demands are, or what its analysis is of the ecological crisis we face. I’ve 
been told that Bill McKibben and his 350.org initiated the event, but others 
are now involved. As for demands, there don’t seem to be any. And for analysis, 
I couldn’t find anything at the website.

I was wondering if members of this list had thoughts about PCM — its 
leadership, politics, future.

Thanks,
Glenn





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Re: [Marxism] Question of ISIS v al-Qaida

[Michael Karadjis via Marxism]

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-Original Message- 
From: Matthew Russo via Marxism


To the best of my knowledge, ISIS diverge from Al Qaeda orthodoxy in
switching tracks to the near enemy, Israel and Saudi Arabia.  Now if 
ISIS
and Baathist allies actually went after these, I am sure they would 
wildly

cheer them on.

I don't think this is quite right. ISIS diverges from Al Qaida orthodoxy 
in switching tracks to the near enemy, their Shiite (or Alawite) Arab 
(or Persian) neighbours. Al Qaida, by contrast, still wants to focus on 
the big picture, namely US imperialism, and it sees Israel and Saudi 
Arabia etc as part of this struggle against the US.


ISIS also claims this, of course. But ISIS has a state-building project, 
and those immediately in its way are the Shia. Thus what appears to be 
more radical about ISIS compared to Jabhat al-Nusra in Syria and 
al-Qaida generally - its penchant for monstrous sectarian brutality - is 
precisely due to a more *conservative* project, that of building an 
actual state.


The dispute goes back to 2005 when al-Qaida chief Zawahiri strongly 
criticised Zarqawi's ISI for its slaughter of Shiites, bombings of 
Shiite holy places and grisly slaughter of hostages 
(https://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/10/dni101105.html), and precisely 
from the point of view that it divided Muslims in the main fight, to 
expel the US occupation, and from there to go on to liberate Palestine 
(in their fashion).


That's why JaN can cooperate with the rest of the Syrian resistance 
against the regime, while ISIS builds a state in the far north and eat 
of Syria and collaborates with the regime even while slaughtering 
Alawite non-combatants.


And that's why the heroic battles waged by the FSA and the united rebel 
front against ISIS haven't won them an ounce of American support - JaN 
fights on the side of the united rebel front against ISIS, but the US 
regards JaN to be more of a threat than ISIS.


Of course, ISIS brutality provides the propaganda for Assad/Maliki/US to 
fight the uprisings more generally, but it is precisely its sectarian 
slaughter that divides the people in Syria and Iraq and thereby makes 
ISIS less dangerous. 



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Re: [Marxism] question re Ukraine panel at Sunday left forum

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 5/31/14 9:33 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism wrote:


Buzgalin I'm familiar with but not the others. Worth attending? If they're
players I want to hear them even if they're rotten; but if they're just
Moscow versions of WWP (in content and size) I'll skip it.
Participants:
Karsten Struhl Chair, John Jay College of Criminal Justice
Alexander Buzgalin Lomonosov Moscow State University (Russia)
Igor Panuta Socialist Party of Ukraine
Vasiliy Pihorovich National Technical University (Ukraine)
Liudmila Bulavka Institute of Culture (Moscow, Russia)

http://www.leftforum.org/content/russia-ukraine-nato-multipolarity-contradictions


This definitely sounds superior to WWP. Of course that is a rather low 
hurdle.



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