Re: [biofuels-biz] reducing ffa's
Hi Ken, Calcium oxide also reacts with ffa and glycerides to make calcium soaps. These soaps are the basis of most greases used to lubricate moving machinery. Whereas sodium salts have the ability to disperse small amounts of oil into water, calcium (magnesium, zinc etc.) soaps have the ability to disperse water into an oil matrix. If you put some finely powdered calcium oxide and vegetable oil in an old-fashioned pestle and mortar, you will find that you can actually grind the oxide into the oil to make a grease. And with free fatty acids, the other product is, of course, water! CaO + 2HOOC-R = RCOO-Ca-OOCR + H2O. So sadly, while you may temporarily dehydrate the oil with quicklime, you will also react with it to get a grease with water emulsified into it. I think I'll stick with sodium hydroxide for now! Regards Michael Allen Thailand On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:05:49 -0700 (PDT), Ken Gotberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Michael et al I?m wondering if anyone has looked at calcium oxide as a reactant/catalysis. CaO is very hydroscopic and should(?) suck up all the H2O and ffa?s. I?m thinking about this in order to use hydrated rice straw derived ethanol directly from fermentation rather than going through laborious distillation and drying procedures. CaO is used in cement and available at low cost (mountains of limestone and five cement factories in West Java). Can make concrete things as well as biodiesel and glycerol. Probably a crazy of the top of my head idea and just wondering if anyone has tried it. Ken PS The p function is defined as ?log (base 10) of the thing being measured. This must be a dimensionless quantity. The concentration of water is defined as one. [H2O] = 1. The [] mean concentration. [H+][OH-]/[H2O] = 10 to the minus 14. I.e. [H+][OH-](dimensionless quantities) = 10 to the -14 and p(H+) + p(OH-) = 14. Agreeing with Michael, p(H+) in something other than water has a different meaning(?) and the rate of dissociation will be different than in water. --- Michael Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Colton (and indirectly Girl Mark), I think pH meters are very stable and reliable instruments these days. But you have to rememebr that they measure the hydrogen ion concentration in a solvent that allows ionisation such as water. (Indeed, the pH scale is devised so that pH 7 is as neutral as water is supposed to be). Methyl ester and vegetable oils are not such solvents. If you put the electrodes of a pH meter into oil or an oil/water mix, the lack of an ionisable solvent between them causes the apparent pH value to wander all over the place. You can even damage some pH meters. I think that is also part of the answer for Girl Mark too: You can soon test what Todd is saying by dropping some sodium hydroxide pellets or flakes into some vegetable oil. You will see that it slowly reacts with the glycerides to give sodium soaps which encase the pellets. This would make ppoor hand-soap because the unreacted pellets would be quite dangerous. But add some water and a little heat and the reaction is much faster and more complete. The sodium salt of the fatty acid so formed can be skimmed off or separated out with a strong brine solution (including calcium chloride solutions just like emulsion breaking mentioned elsewhere). It may then be washed with fresh brine at this time to remove unreacted sodium hudroxide. The pH of the soap made in this way is usually then lowered by adding resin (wood resins such as pine and kauri have been used for yonks) and buffered by adding something like borax (sodium tetraborate) or a phosphate (which also counters scum-formation in calcium-containing hard waters). The soap is then left to harden (aging) so that water evaporates and any sodium hydroxide (lye) left gets a chance to react with carbon dioxide in the air to make the less skin-aggressive sodium carbonate. (This is basically how laundry soaps and soap powders were once made -- and still are in some sustainable-technology countries). Some of these crude soaps are then re-milled, heated with colouring, perfumes, resin, buffers, glycerol etc. to make toilet soaps. (Incidentally, I think there are many more good recipes on the net for soap-making than there are for ester-making. Here are just three of the thousands presented by google: http://candleandsoap.about.com/mbody.htm, http://waltonfeed.com/old/soaphome.html, http://members.aol.com/oelaineo/soapmaking.html) I'm sure you can see the similarities of this saponification reaction to the transesterification reaction. And you can also see how the presence of water can quickly turn one into the other! But to return to Colton's enquiry: For the reasons given in the first paragraph, we measure the pH of the wash-water in contact with the methyl ester. Of course it takes some time for the two phases to come to equilibrium depending
Re: [biofuels-biz] We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It
Thanks Keith, Lest We Forget . . . Michael Allen Thailand On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:52:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've talked about the CIA coup against Mossadegh in Iran here several times, and drawn much the same conclusions. I'm glad it's getting a bit more attention now, very timely. Here's the NYT review of Stephen Kinzer's new book, All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/10/books/review/10BASS.html 'All the Shah's Men': Regime Change, Circa 1953 Keith http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2003/000158.html We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It By Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman Fri, 08 Aug 2003 In yesterday's Washington Post, Condoleeza Rice, the President's National Security Advisor, writes the following: Our task is to work with those in the Middle East who seek progress toward greater democracy, tolerance, prosperity and freedom. As President Bush said in February, 'The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life.' Now, if we only had a nickel for every time Bush, or Rice, or Colin Powell, or Paul Wolfowitz or Dick Cheney or Richard Perle or Donald Rumsfeld talked about bringing democracy to the Middle East. Talk, talk, talk. Here's something you can bet on: Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz will not hold a press conference this month to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the U.S.-led coup of the democratically elected leader of Iran -- Mohammed Mossadegh. Rice and Powell won't hold a press conference to celebrate Operation Ajax, the CIA plot that overthrew the Mossadegh. That was 50 years ago this month, in August 1953. That's when Mossadegh was fed up with the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company -- now BP -- pumping Iran's oil and shipping the profits back home to the United Kingdom. And Mossadegh said -- hey, this is our oil, I think we'll keep it. And Winston Churchill said -- no you won't. Mossadegh nationalized the company -- the way the British were nationalizing their own vital industries at the time. But what's good for the UK ain't good for Iran. If you fly out of Dulles Airport in Virginia, ever wonder what the word Dulles means? It stands for the Dulles family -- Secretary of State John Foster Dulles and his brother, the CIA director, Allen Dulles. They were responsible for the overthrow of the democratically elected leader of Iran. As was President Theodore Roosevelt's grandson, Kermit Roosevelt, the CIA agent who traveled to Iran to pull off the coup. Now why should we be concerned about a coup that happened so far away almost 50 years ago this month? New York Times reporter Stephen Kinzer puts it this way: It is not far-fetched to draw a line from Operation Ajax through the Shah's repressive regime and the Islamic revolution to the fireballs that engulfed the World Trade Center in New York. Kinzer has written a remarkable new book, All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror (Wiley, 2003). In it, he documents step by step, how Roosevelt, the Dulles boys and Norman Schwarzkopf Sr., among a host of others, took down a democratically elected regime in Iran. They had freedom of the press. We shut it down. They had democracy. And we crushed it. Mossadegh was the beacon of hope for the Middle East. If democracy were allowed to take hold in Iran, it probably would have spread throughout the Middle East. We asked Kinzer: what does the overthrow of Mossadegh say about the United States respect for democracy abroad? Imagine today what it must sound like to Iranians to hear American leaders tell them -- 'We want you to have a democracy in Iran, we disapprove of your present government, we wish to help you bring democracy to your country.' Naturally, they roll their eyes and say -- We had a democracy once, but you crushed it,' he said. This shows how differently other people perceive us from the way we perceive ourselves. We think of ourselves as paladins of democracy. But actually, in Iran, we destroyed the last democratic regime the country ever had and set them on a road to what has been half a century of dictatorship. After ousting Mossadegh, the United States put in place a brutal Shah who destroyed dissent and tortured the dissenters. And the Shah begat the Islamic revolution. During that Islamic revolution in 1979, Iranians held up Mossadegh's picture, telling the world: we want a democratic regime that resists foreign influence and respects the will of the Iranian people as expressed through democratic institutions. They were never able to achieve that. And this has led many Iranians to react very poignantly to my book, Kaizer told us. One woman sent me an e-mail
Re: [biofuels-biz] reducing ffa's
Dear Colton (and indirectly Girl Mark), I think pH meters are very stable and reliable instruments these days. But you have to rememebr that they measure the hydrogen ion concentration in a solvent that allows ionisation such as water. (Indeed, the pH scale is devised so that pH 7 is as neutral as water is supposed to be). Methyl ester and vegetable oils are not such solvents. If you put the electrodes of a pH meter into oil or an oil/water mix, the lack of an ionisable solvent between them causes the apparent pH value to wander all over the place. You can even damage some pH meters. I think that is also part of the answer for Girl Mark too: You can soon test what Todd is saying by dropping some sodium hydroxide pellets or flakes into some vegetable oil. You will see that it slowly reacts with the glycerides to give sodium soaps which encase the pellets. This would make ppoor hand-soap because the unreacted pellets would be quite dangerous. But add some water and a little heat and the reaction is much faster and more complete. The sodium salt of the fatty acid so formed can be skimmed off or separated out with a strong brine solution (including calcium chloride solutions just like emulsion breaking mentioned elsewhere). It may then be washed with fresh brine at this time to remove unreacted sodium hudroxide. The pH of the soap made in this way is usually then lowered by adding resin (wood resins such as pine and kauri have been used for yonks) and buffered by adding something like borax (sodium tetraborate) or a phosphate (which also counters scum-formation in calcium-containing hard waters). The soap is then left to harden (aging) so that water evaporates and any sodium hydroxide (lye) left gets a chance to react with carbon dioxide in the air to make the less skin-aggressive sodium carbonate. (This is basically how laundry soaps and soap powders were once made -- and still are in some sustainable-technology countries). Some of these crude soaps are then re- milled, heated with colouring, perfumes, resin, buffers, glycerol etc. to make toilet soaps. (Incidentally, I think there are many more good recipes on the net for soap-making than there are for ester-making. Here are just three of the thousands presented by google: http://candleandsoap.about.com/mbody.htm, http://waltonfeed.com/old/soaphome.html, http://members.aol.com/oelaineo/soapmaking.html) I'm sure you can see the similarities of this saponification reaction to the transesterification reaction. And you can also see how the presence of water can quickly turn one into the other! But to return to Colton's enquiry: For the reasons given in the first paragraph, we measure the pH of the wash-water in contact with the methyl ester. Of course it takes some time for the two phases to come to equilibrium depending on how much mixing is going on, surface area exposed etc. Strictly speaking, we are not trying to make the oil pH neutral by washing so much as trying to remove sodium soaps and methoxide. If these remain in the ester, they could be deposited in the engine and may cause damage. (Whether such damage is more dangerous to a diesel engine that a long drive down a spume-covered coast road I cannot say . but it's an interesting thought!) Hope this is some help Michael Allen Thailand On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:01:07 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are using a pH meter ( visual) methods during our titration to determine the ffa%. It is very frustrating since the pH meter readings are very inconsistant. Our current ffa% is 1.6% and we are trying to reduce it to .5% by acidification. Any comments on methods for determing the ffa%? Thanks Colton How were you able to know that your ffa's increase? If you are just using a pH meter, it is but natural that the pH will fall since you are using a strong acid H2SO4. If you are titrating with NaOH, H2SO4 will eat up a considerable amount of lye. Christopher =-Original Message- =From: Orion Polinsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] =Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 8:53 AM =To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com =Subject: [biofuels-biz] reducing ffa's = = =hi all, = =I am trying to convert my free fatty acids to =esters by acidification using methanol and =H2SO4. Unfortunately, each time I try it, my =ffa level increases. =Is there anyone out there with a good =acidification recipe? =thanks, =Orion = = =summa scientia nihil scire =Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: =http://www.Care2.com/dailyaction/ = = = =Biofuels at Journey to Forever =http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html =Biofuel at WebConX =http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm =List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: =http://archive.nnytech.net/ =To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: =[EMAIL PROTECTED] = = = =Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms
Re: [biofuels-biz] Catalysts don't participate?
Hi Marc, *When is a catalyst not a catalyst?* If your catalyst is partly consumed in the reaction you are promoting then it is not, by definition, a catalyst! (Hence your use of quotes I presume) In the case of methoxides, the problem is surely that they are consumed by side reactions (notably with water and free fatty acids) which are all reactions we would prefer not to promote. The methoxides in this case are very definitely reactants and not catalysts! But surely you would agree that methyl oleate is methyl oleate is methyl oleate no matter which catalyst or enzyme you use to produce it ? Current catalyst theory suggests that some catalysts also influence reactions without necessarily forming any measurable intermediates. It is supposed that they do this because their topographic surface ionic charge can line-up suitable molecules in close proximity. Do such catalysts participate? I dunno . . . . I'm just a humble bucket-chemist! But I do take your point that it is unlikely that methoxide works without participating in the transesterification reaction in some way. I'm curious about the possible specificity of catalysts in the transesterification reaction: Are you perhaps suggesting that potassium methoxide and sodium methoxide can produce a different range of esters from the same oil? As I said, I have no experience with the use of potassium hydroxide so your observations would be most welcome. Michael Allen Thailand On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 11:16:43 +0800, Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We don't use potassium hydroxide and I have no personal experience of its use. I'm sure there are other people who read this who can be of more help. However, you may have to explain what you mean by good. Chemically, the various methyl esters of palm-oil should not be influenced by the choice of catalyst. Afterall, catalysts are not supposed to take place in a reaction are they? Not quite. Catalysts DO participate in reactions. What makes them catalysts (and not precursors or products) is that they are not consumed; instead, they are regenerated. Apparently, our catalysts ARE partially consumed. And it is not physically impossible for a reaction to show a preference for one catalyst over another. To take an extreme example, in organic chemistry some enzymes (organic catalysts) catalyze ONLY one reaction, and that reaction cannot even take place without its specific enzyme. Marc de Piolenc Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Something acid + biodiesel = FFA + methyl something
Michael, there's been some scepticism recently about using acid in the wash. I don't agree with the sceptics. I wrote this on our Bubble washing page: Using acid Some people say it's a mistake to quench the wash with acid. They say that while the acid will neutralize the alkali catalyst, it will also convert some of the soap to Free Fatty Acids (FFAs), which dissolve back into the biodiesel, and which you don't want in your fuel. We seldom use acid in the wash, but many people get good results using an acid quench. Some of them have had their biodiesel analysed, again with good results -- acid-quenched biodiesel can and does meet and exceed standard specifications such as DIN 51606 and ONORM. Does it in fact convert soap to FFAs? Typical quantities of acid used are: 8 milliliters of 5% vinegar per liter of wash water used (usually a quarter to half as much water as the amount of oil used); 2 milliliters of 10% phosphoric acid per liter of washing water; enough (not much) 5% phosphoric acid to bring the pH down to 7 (neutral) -- this last from Martin Steele, who makes high-quality home-brew biodiesel that passes the analysis test with ease. This is how to convert soap to FFAs: Separating glycerine/FFAs http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html What it says is that for average WVO, titrating at 3 ml, you'd need 9.75 ml of 85% phosphoric acid per liter of oil used to convert the soap to FFAs, thus separating it from the glycerine. That's about 50 times as much acid as you'd use to quench the wash, and in the wash it's buffered by all that water too. FFAs? Naah. But be sparing with the acid anyway. - From Bubble washing: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html Care to comment? Hi Keith, Well since you ask . . . . . Um! If we used a counter-current washing system with lots of fresh water, my guess is that we would remove all the excess methanol, the methoxide and the glycerol to very low levels without any acid addition. I think we use acid to keep the volume of wash-water low -- particularly in the Idaho-Uni bubble washer. The acid increases its capacity to wash out excess soap formed by the break-down of excess methoxide. But while the something acid maybe taking out the soap as a sodium something salt, some free fatty acid is formed as well. Maybe not too much if we keep the wash water at a pH of 7 to 8 because these fatty acids are very weak (poorly ionised). Some of this FFA will probably disperse in the soapy wash water anyway and be removed (but some won't !). The particular fatty acids in a particular oil may have some effect on this too: For example, unsaturated fatty acids could perhaps be made water-soluble by the acid-washing process (I'm thinking of some of those sulphonates used in making shampoos here). I think that a very low free fatty acid ( 0.2% ?) in the oil and good glycerol separation may actually remove the need for washing altogether (Oh that we were so lucky!). This is because so little methoxide was added in the first place. Recycling those hazy slops at the interface between ester and glycerol with the next batch for separation would be a help too. Or using a centrifuge like the old cream-separators once found on every farm running a couple of cows. That should work a treat with glycerol/ester mixes! (I'm still hoping to find one without breaking into a museum.) I also think that leaving a light haze of water in the ester is probably the main source of free fatty acids during ester storage because it promotes ester hydrolysis. But a leaky lid, condensation and rain water will do the same. And, just as a final thought, some of those bugs that block up fuel filters in aircraft will also consider the ester to be a gastronomic treat. They would produce some free acids but probably of a lower molecular weight -- acetic, propionic, butyric etc. This is all off the top of my head Keith! Absolutely no references to hand! Perhaps Marc and Todd could add something . . . . . . Regards Michael Allen Thailand ps Keith! KOH/NaOH=56.1/40 = 1.4025. Close enough to 1.40274 I reckon! snip -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Foolproof process
Simon, Mr.Allen I have another question. If I use KOH as base catalyst,will my biodiesel as good as if I use NaOH? We don't use potassium hydroxide and I have no personal experience of its use. I'm sure there are other people who read this who can be of more help. However, you may have to explain what you mean by good. Chemically, the various methyl esters of palm-oil should not be influenced by the choice of catalyst. Afterall, catalysts are not supposed to take place in a reaction are they? However, if you have free fatty acids present, both sodium methoxide and potassium methoxide will react with them and some of your catalyst will no longer be effective. Crude palm oil, as I explained before, can contain as much as 22% FFA in our experience. And how much KOH should I use (NaOH 3-3,5 gr/1 liter oil)? Well that depends on that free fatty acid content as revealed by a simple titration. If you need 3 g of NaOH to every litre of oil, I would expect that you need 3 x 56.1/40 grams of potassium hydroxide. Why? Because 56.1 is the molecular weight of potassium hydroxide and 40 is the molecular weight of sodium hydroxide. I am a little surprised that your teacher has not given you this information. What course are you studying? My teacher said that I don't have to add H3PO4 after the transesterification process,is it ok? Are there effects to my biodiesel if I don't use H3PO4? The purpose of the acid added to the wash-water after the transesterification is to break down any methoxide left in the ester and to neutralise it. Any strong acid would do for this. We use sulphuric acid to bring the wash water in contact with the methyl ester to a pH of not more than 8. If you don't add acid, you may not break down all the methoxide and there is a good chance that this will cause extra wear in an engine. Water will also break down sodium or potassium methoxide but it will not neutralise it. Maybe your teacher is right because your washing process is very efficient at removing excess catalyst. We found that this efficiency can only be achieved if we use much more water. Perhaps you can give us some details of your washing process. I use Crude palm oil,stearin,and used cooking oil (with pretreatment) Have you carried out the titration of these materials with 0,025 molar sodium hydroxide yet? What answers do you get? I really wait for your answer, thanks. And I await yours Michael Allen Thailand -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/sO0ANB/LIdGAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work.
Murdoch, There have been several ideas put forward over the years to indicate that if space is composed of anything, it is rarefied hydrogen and maybe helium. Deep space is basically, (I am told), made up of hydrogen atoms at a variable density but typically individual molecules at about 100 mm (4) apart. There was a proposal to make a deep-space vehicle propelled on the ram-jet principle to scoop these up, heat them in a fusion reactor and chuck them out the back. I'm pretty sure NASA published details of the proposal some 20 years ago. It also seems generally agreed that the sun, like other stars, keeps going by fission of hydrogen to helium (and higher elements too). Because of its large gravity, hydrogen from the space around the sun would be attracted to the sun. As it happens, both hydrogen and helium have thermal molecular velocities above the escape velocity of Earth but not (I am told) of Jupiter, Saturn and perhaps Neptune. Perhaps there are puddles of the stuff out there at the bottom of a very serious gravity-well. But I do know from personal experience that keeping hydrogen confined on Planet Earth is bloody difficult and quite dangerous! Incidentally, re your 1 in 10, has any professional scientist or engineer at any of the US space agencies ever gone on record to say hydrogen *does not* leave our atmosphere in the general direction of up? Regards Michael Allen Thailand Interesting responses, thx. On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 15:19:53 +0700, you wrote: Sorry Murdoch, Didn't realise you had some questions in here. I forget what the escape velocity is for Planet Earth. But I know that normal hydrogen molecules exceed it. That is why free hydrogen does not exist in our planet's atmosphere. Like free water on the moon, it just keeps going. But you have a point: I would imagine that some hydrogen reacts with oxygen and ozone along the way. And perhaps with nitrogen too if the circumstances are right. I can't give you details because upper atmospheric chemistry and physics is above and beyond me :-. Actually, over the years, I have been on the side of trying to claim that some significant amounts of Hydrogen may escape Earth's atmosphere when chemically liberated, but I have usually been met with skepticism at best, shouting- down by professional scientists at worst. Your agreeing with the overall idea of this is maybe a 1 in 5 or 10 type of response. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/sOykFB/k9VGAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Coconut Crazy
Hi Ed, I think Keith has put the paper which describes this work on journeytoforever (reference not to hand) Engines were started and run on petrodiesel for ten minutes to bring up the temperature of the SVO. Then the fuel supply was switched over for the continuous 3000 hour run. SVO temperatures varied due to heat losses from the tank at night but the maximum achieved was 80C. The fuel tank was painted red and was not positioned in the sun-light. The same equipment was used for the tests with crude palm oil (CPO) and similar temperatures were achieved. The fuel filter and water separation unit showed that the temperature at which the fuel was delivered to the injectors was much lower however: After a cool night, the contents would be cloudy. Night time temperatures around here are about 25C. As I explained before, this was not my work and I was really only a spectator (and editor of the paper!). More specific details are available in the paper and you can contact the author directly at [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Refining involves removal of the FFA as soap with NaOH, treatment with phosphoric acid to phosphorylate the gums, the addition of bentonite (Fuller's earth) and filtration to produce a food-grade palm-oil. Regards Michael Allen Thailand On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 22:21:42 -0700, Neoteric Biofuels Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael: In regard to: Incidentally, there is no great secret in the Neoterics claim: You can run diesel engines directly on refined coconut oil just as you can on refined palm-oil: You just have to melt and pre-heat the oil! We have done this by passing the exhaust pipe up through the fuel tank but, being in the tropics, we do have a head-start: the air temperature is about 32C so our oils are liquid. The challenge has been to use unrefined palm-oil which is about one tenth the price of the refined stuff. The research of my colleagues here shows that while refined oil will run over 3000 hours in this system, unrefined oil cooks the engine within 500 hours. I keep asking them to write this up but I think there is a reluctance to publish negative results! I think you sent info on this in the past to myself and others, and as I recall, this was done as a single-tank test? Also do you know how hot the oil was at the injection pump? Two-tank, and adequate heating (70C+) might have helped with the unrefined oil test results. BTW, what was involved in refining in this test? Thanks, and best regards, Edward Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Natural Vitamins for Good Prostate Male Health. $28.97 http://www.challengerone.com/t/l.asp?cid=2865lp=prosta2.html http://us.click.yahoo.com/qJIe0D/89VGAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Coconut Crazy
or offline, if i can be any further help. Regards Michael Allen Thailand Michael et al, Thank you for all the good information you have provided to my request. I'm still learning how this yahoo system works (replies to all; replies to group or what). I grew up in Samoa and periodically return to the various islands I know down that way. It bugs me greatly to note how dependent they are on diesel-electric production! Especially when palms and coconuts are everywhere. In Independent Samoa on the island of Savaii, the old colonial coconut plantations still survive - So, I'm toying with land area and production figures. Each island is it's own unique electric system, yet each varies greatly in terms of land available for production. Question: Could palm oil, or coconut oil be used directly in a steam generating turbine system and bypass the need for diesel? A sort of slurry of coconut husks and coconut oils (with the water and shell used in other products). I find it a waste that the coconut water isn't marketed as it's health qualities are sifnificant. But direct combustion of a slurry in a steam-electric system seems possible. Again, thanks for all the terrific information!! Bruce Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free shipping on all inkjet cartridge refill kit orders to US Canada. We have your brand: HP, Epson, Lexmark, Canon more. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5510 http://us.click.yahoo.com/kP..SB/49VGAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Coconut Crazy
progressive coconut oil refineries here are using coco shell and/or rice husks in their boilers. Typically, the boilers are used only for process steam, not for power. If it was you and I who had to go gathering the nuts and the shells I might perhaps agree with you. But fortunately we have alternatives don't we? We certainly wouldn't accept the pay the typical trash collector gets ! I think that this potential fuel is not gathered in the Pacific islands because it is no longer economic to make copra from the nuts (and there are several alternative fuels that most seem able to afford). The island copra producers are now unable to compete with the integrated plant producing coir, fatty acids, copra and coconut oil in places like Sri Lanka and the Philippines. Also land tenure usually gives Pacific islanders more security anyway. In Sri Lanka, the whole copra/oil operation is considered to be pretty marginal and its workers are very lowly paid. When the West wasn't so concerned about cholesterol and saturated fat content, a bit of money could be made from coconut oil. Many Euros used it as a sun-tan lotion until it was shown that it has little or no UV filtering characteristics. Now the virile and nubile slowly turn their bits to grill in the Mediterranean sun using non-coconut based oils I believe. But even in Sri Lanka, it may not be economic for workers to gather up the trash: It would be a bit like saying to them that even a few rupees are better than no rupees when they could (and do!) usefully use that lowly-paid time for tending their own vegetable garden, milking their own few goats, scaring the monkeys out of their avocado trees etc. And the smoke and ash are reputed to cause lung impairment for those who routinely feed that fire burning in that (very) inefficient boiler up at the factory. I think economics has a lot to answer for! IMO not all development options can be expressed in terms of dollar equivalent. Your experience may be different. I hope we can find time to discuss our differing perceptions. Regards Michael Allen Thailand -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free shipping on all inkjet cartridge refill kit orders to US Canada. Low prices up to 80% off. We have your brand: HP, Epson, Lexmark more. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5510 http://us.click.yahoo.com/y8_tZA/6oVGAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work.
Sorry Murdoch, Didn't realise you had some questions in here. I forget what the escape velocity is for Planet Earth. But I know that normal hydrogen molecules exceed it. That is why free hydrogen does not exist in our planet's atmosphere. Like free water on the moon, it just keeps going. But you have a point: I would imagine that some hydrogen reacts with oxygen and ozone along the way. And perhaps with nitrogen too if the circumstances are right. I can't give you details because upper atmospheric chemistry and physics is above and beyond me :-. Hydrogen embrittlement is encountered in the process of making methanol from natural gas and several other processes where hydrogen forms. It is generally thought to be due to the reaction of hydrogen with iron carbides in the steel forming methane under huge pressures. Chromium carbides are much more stable so equipment for handling hydrogen as a hot gas is usually made out of high chromium steels (Hastelloy C for example). Austenitic stainless steel cannot be used because welding reduces the local chromium content. I think that work-hardening also becomes serious below about -20C for both austenitic S/S and all the Hastelloys. The best bet is probably some thick-walled magnesium-aluminium alloy with piping fabricated in 304 S/S. Why not ask NASA? Of course these materials cost more than common low carbon steels. Technically it may be possible to put hydrogen under very high pressures and very low temperature into road tankers and coastal vessels for transportation. It may even be possible to put a tank in every automobile in the world. But it will not IMO be a low cost solution. And in true Hollywood style, there is a much greater risk of a car exploding on impact if it is storing very high pressure hydrogen in a fuel tank within it somewhere. Sorry about the delay Michael Allen Thailand On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 23:10:37 -0700, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:44:52 +0700, you wrote: Dear Hakan, Your summary of hydrogen production technology is, IMO, spot on. However you say nothing about the distribution losses that have always plagued City Gas (which also contains carbon monoxide). This is not, as is commonly supposed, just caused by poorly maintained pipes: The hydrogen molecule is so very small that it can pass through atomic sized gaps. As a consequence, some pretty sophisticated equipment is required for its compression, storage and distribution. Even stainless steel pipes can lose hydrogen molecules! When I was working with the stuff, I was warned of the severe explosion risk caused by hydrogen lines, particularly in ducts, due to its very wide flammability range and its ability to find the smallest hole to escape through. I also remember that I was on no account to put my finger over a leaking hydrogen jet because the small molecule would pass through my skin and cause an embolism. In fact the only advantage of hydrogen storage and transportation that I ever discovered was that it doesn't hang around when it leaks: It heads straight up and tries to leave this planet. Question is: how much of it succeeds? For this reason, hydrogen carrying pipes were/are always brought around the outside of buildings. It is true that NASA has made some truly remarkable advances in the safe handling of hydrogen. But somehow I can't see my local filling station being able to match NASA even though they have considerable experience in handling compressed natural gas (CNG) and liquid propane gas (LPG) as transport fuels. Hydrogen is in an entirely different league. And then, of course, there is hydrogen embrittlement . . What is hydrogen embrittlement? Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Inkjet cartridges up to 80% off. HP, Epson, Lexmark--we have your brand. Free shipping on every order to the U.S. and Canada! Excellent service. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5510 http://us.click.yahoo.com/QWB0QC/.eUGAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info
Re: [biofuels-biz] Foolproof process
Dear Simon, Thanks for the answers (well some of them anyway!) Our experience with crude palm oil shows that with bad plant management, crude palm oil can easily have 22% free fatty acid in it. This complicates the process of making biodiesel quite a lot as you seem to have found out. Try getting the people at the palm-oil factory to put the oil into a closed tank so that it is not contaminated with water or air. Prolonged storage of CPO in contact with air and water is where the high free fatty acid comes from. You will need to carry out a titration of this oil and any other vegetable oils you may use because the amount of mineral acid and hydroxide you will need will vary tremendously between batches. Indeed, I don't see how you can produce a consistent product unless you titrate each batch of oil. I know Alex Kacs boasted that the two stage process did not need any titrations but I don't think he worked with the sort of oils that you (and I) have available! The strong mineral acid does not actually convert the free fatty acid into the methyl ester Simon. It is only a catalyst. It's job is to provide hydrogen ions which catalyse the esterification process. If you don't add the strong acid, you don't get any esterification. It doesn't matter much which strong acid you add. The amount you add may depend on 1) which acid you use,2) What the titrated acid value is at the end of the esterification. In the same way, the sodium (or potassium) hydroxide provided hydroxyl ions which catalyse the transesterification process. Neither of the catalysts are supposed to be used up in the process. But if you used mineral acid in the first process (esterification), you must neutralise it (or remove it) before transesterification otherwise it will use up all your NaOH/KOH catalyst. You will need to titrate the oil to find out precisely how much NaOH/KOH you need to neutralise the strong acid you added. Then you need some excess for the transesterification to work. Again, the procedure set out in Journeytoforever works well in our experience. In one of our units, we continue to get rid of free fatty acids as soap by adding sodium hydoxide in the same way that you do. This is strictly a saponification process and is very similar to part of the current palm-oil refining process used out in the villages. However, it significantly reduces the overall conversion to methyl ester and leads to a serious disposal problem. We see extraction plant management and the two stage process *with adequate process control* as the way to reduce and eventually eliminate the problem. I do not know where you have seen this 1:1 molar proportion suggested: Every molecule of palm oil is made up of three molecules of fatty acid attached to 1 molecule of glycerol. It follows from this basic chemistry that you are going to need at least three molecules of methanol to form three molecules of fatty acid methyl ester (FAME). In fact, because the reaction is reversible, we usually push it along in the direction we want by using 6 mols of methanol to every one mol of palm oil. I will need your help in finding where a 1:1 molar ratio is recommended in the available literature. Can you perhaps be a little more precise? To give you an example: if 5mls of our oil is neutralised to phenolpthalein with 77.4 mls of 0.025M sodium hydroxide solution, we know we have about 12% free fatty acid expressed as oleic acid equivalent. Using the 2-stage process, we would add 100 mls of 95% sulphuric acid to 100 litres of this oil and react it *not less than 8 litres of methanol*. That will require close on 150 gm of sodium hydroxide to neutralise it after esterification. We would then put in about 310 gms of NaOH (in several stages - ideally titrating at each stage) to make sure there was an excess for catalysis in the transesterification process. That will require at least another 12 litres of methanol (and so using at least 20 litres of methanol in total). If the oil had titrated at 4.2 mls of 0.025M NaOH, this would have been equivalent to 0.65% FFA expressed as oleic acid equivalent. In this case, we would use a one stage process with 23 litres of methanol to 100 litres of oil and 434 gm of sodium hydroxide as catalyst. So, we would use more NaOH and slightly more methanol in the one stage process than we would use in the two-stage process. However, I would not promote this as a general recipe without knowing more about the composition of the oil being used. I hope this answers most of your questions. Selemat Michael Allen Thailand On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 00:02:28 +0800, Simon Franky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Michael Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 10:02:00 +0700 To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Foolproof process Dear Franky, I am sure that there a many people in the group who can help you. I think it would
Re: [biofuels-biz] Coconut Crazy
Dear Bruce, We can take this correspondence off-line if you prefer. All you have to do is reply to my personal e-mail address. (I'm not sure how interesting coconut oil is to those folk wrestling with the US bureaucracy anyway!) Incidentally, there is no great secret in the Neoterics claim: You can run diesel engines directly on refined coconut oil just as you can on refined palm-oil: You just have to melt and pre-heat the oil! We have done this by passing the exhaust pipe up through the fuel tank but, being in the tropics, we do have a head-start: the air temperature is about 32C so our oils are liquid. The challenge has been to use unrefined palm-oil which is about one tenth the price of the refined stuff. The research of my colleagues here shows that while refined oil will run over 3000 hours in this system, unrefined oil cooks the engine within 500 hours. I keep asking them to write this up but I think there is a reluctance to publish negative results! My recollection of the medicinal properties of coconut milk is that quenching your thirst on it leads to the world falling out of your bottom . . . . . I have, however, been told that is high in potassium and can actually settle the guts after a bad attack of Tropical Squits . . . I have worked on using coconut shells and coir to fuel. The problem is that a simple steam turbine running on the Rankine cycle can only muster about 40% conversion of the fuel into useful work, the rest is discarded to the environment. Co-generation is possible if you have a use for lots of tepid water. But generally in the tropics, there is an abundance of this stuff! Why it even falls out of the sky! I did design a coconut-shell fuelled heater for drying bananas in Tonga many years ago. This was to help a health food company which had effectively been attacked by a Peace Corp worker! He had insisted that they use solar energy to dry the bananas in an inflatable building! Sadly the air flow over the bananas was negligible and the intermittant electricity supply caused the building to collapse onto the mouldy bananas anyway. This was my initiation into inappropriate technology foisted onto developing countries by poorly-educated westerners who carry absolutely no responsibility for the outcome! Even a cursory glance at the met data would have shown that Nuku'alofa is frequently overcast and that it can be cool enough that pullovers are worn. And anyone in the street could have told him about the frequent electrical black-outs. But hey! that was a lot of years ago . . . Things have changed . . . . have'nt they ? Let me know, on-line or offline, if i can be any further help. Regards Michael Allen Thailand Michael et al, Thank you for all the good information you have provided to my request. I'm still learning how this yahoo system works (replies to all; replies to group or what). I grew up in Samoa and periodically return to the various islands I know down that way. It bugs me greatly to note how dependent they are on diesel-electric production! Especially when palms and coconuts are everywhere. In Independent Samoa on the island of Savaii, the old colonial coconut plantations still survive - So, I'm toying with land area and production figures. Each island is it's own unique electric system, yet each varies greatly in terms of land available for production. Question: Could palm oil, or coconut oil be used directly in a steam generating turbine system and bypass the need for diesel? A sort of slurry of coconut husks and coconut oils (with the water and shell used in other products). I find it a waste that the coconut water isn't marketed as it's health qualities are sifnificant. But direct combustion of a slurry in a steam-electric system seems possible. Again, thanks for all the terrific information!! Bruce -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Coral Calcium for Greater Health - $23.95 http://www.challengerone.com/t/l.asp?cid=2805lp=calcium2.asp http://us.click.yahoo.com/MmkSQC/NTVGAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Coconut Crazy
Hi Bruce, Sadly I don't think I think I can be a lot of *specific* help. You see, here in Thailand we are working with palm oil from the west African palm (Elaeis guiniensis - the oil palm), not from the coconut palm. However the oil is chemically very similar except that there are more saturated glycerides in coconut oil so its cloud point is usually a tad higher than palm oil. This means very little with regard to methyl ester formation except that you may need to carry out the reaction at 60C and make sure that all the little white flecks of stearin/palmitin have melted *before* the reaction is started. (Well that's what we do with the high stearin feedstock we use in our large reactor). Apart from that, you can use either of the Alex Kacs processes listed in journeytoforever depending entirely on the free fatty acid content of the feed oil. Journeytoforever also has an excellent section on Oil yields and characteristics which should provide some of the specifics you require. For example, coconuts can produce 2260 kgs of oil/hectare which compares with maybe 5000 kgs/hectare for oil palm. However, the oil palm grows best within plus-or-minus 15 degrees of latitude (we are stretching it here at present although the GMO people hope to engeneer the palm into higher latitudes. However I rather doubt it will make West Coast USA!) Of course yields can vary a lot from place to place depending on micro- climate, soil fertility etc. Nevertheless, for your purposes, that extra yield from oil palm may be worth looking at. Most producers get about 80% of the oil as biodiesel and, within the accuracy of this excercise, the heating value (btu/lb or kJ/kg) is better than 95% of the diesel oil it replaces. (Again, see Journeytoforever for some comparitive figures) In a previous existence, I did contract work for the UN: I could not help noticing that most Pacific islands persist in growing coconut palms with low yields. In addition, most of the smaller island groups use imported diesel to generate electricity, get their produce to market etc. Even Fiji has a substantial diesel-electric generating capacity to augment its hydro projects and their coconut palms are maybe 25 metres high so few venture up the tree to pick them. On Vanua Levu, the diesel-powered buses also have dents in the roof from nuts falling from these high palms! No wonder pedestrians prefer to take the bus . . . . . . I've also spent over a year in Sri Lanka working on several small-scale development projects (some connected with coconut, coir and charcoal production) and I would like to commend their coconut palms to your attention: They have been bred to produce more nuts more quickly than those found in Samoa, Fiji or the Cook Islands. And they are much shorter! Please keep us in touch with your conclusions. Michael Allen Thailand On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 06:02:42 -, Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This message is for Michael Allen: I am looking for specifics regarding coconut oil as an energy feedstock. Specifically, what is the ratio of nuts (per ton) to barrel yield of fuel? What is the btu content of coconut oil? I am researching the fesibility of replacement of diesel fuel in isolated economies with bio-diesel as a means of electric generation. Previously I was an Alternative Energy Administrator for a major west coast utility and have always been interested in ways to replace fossil fuels with alternatives. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Save on Coral Calcium. Get Better Health and Stronger Bones. Seen on TV http://www.challengerone.com/t/l.asp?cid-2805lp=calcium2.asp http://us.click.yahoo.com/9gf46B/EfUGAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Energy Bill Bankrupts Our Future
I would imagine that a belief in the imminent arrival of the Armageddon negates most of the arguments put forward in this article . . . . Is the US Energy policy now perhaps formulated by Fundmentalist Christians who actually believe that the Second Coming Is Nigh?. Who precisely do they suppose should Be Repenting Because The Day Of Judgement Is At Hand ? Apparently you, me and all our children unto (at least) the seventh generation . . . . It's a worry folks . . . . . On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 01:24:18 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16226 Energy Bill Bankrupts Our Future By Charles Sheehan-Miles, AlterNet June 23, 2003 In what may be the worst piece of legislation the Senate has passed in decades (and they've had some whoppers), the Senate voted last week for a huge corporate boondoggle that will not only help bankrupt our country, but will guarantee long-term environmental damage, a rise in cancer rates and thousands of years of monitoring of toxic and radioactive waste. They did this without a single public hearing, without a debate, and without much of a conscience. The energy bill is a major attack on our country and our world's future. First, it authorizes the spending of taxpayer dollars to help build six or more new nuclear reactors - reactors that the utilities couldn't afford to build on their own. The utilities and proponents of nuclear power would have us believe that per megawatt, nuclear power is both the cheapest and the cleanest form of energy available. In fact, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, the last five commercial reactors cost 11 times as much to build per kilowatt as natural gas plants. Furthermore, they aren't at all responsible for the cost of long-term storage of the nuclear waste they create - waste that will have to be stored, monitored and maintained for the next 100,000 years. Mind-boggling, considering that all of recorded human history is only a fraction of that time. Imagine your reaction if your annual tax bill carried a surcharge to maintain toxic waste left behind by Ptolemy II and Nebuchadnezzar. Worse, the bill indefinitely extends the Price-Anderson Act, passing on the liability for accidents at nuclear plants to the very people who will suffer the consequences - you and me. George Woodwell, one of the preeminent scientists in America today, recently pointed out that if it weren't for Price-Anderson, there wouldn't be a single commercial nuclear reactor in the U.S., because they couldn't afford the insurance. As it stands, reactor operators are required to carry $200 million of liability coverage per reactor; damages beyond that amount are passed on to the taxpayer. Ironically, in a 1992 study by Sandia National Labs, commissioned in the wake of the Three Mile Island near-meltdown, the cost of damage from a single nuclear accident is estimated to range as high as $560 billion in current articles. Who pays? We do. But that's not all. Behind curtain number three is a pilot pebble bed nuclear reactor. The utilities call pebble bed reactors inherently safe, because if they loose their coolant, they don't melt down. In fact, say the utilities, they are so safe that the engineers don't believe they need containment structures. Of course, if the graphite coatings on the pebbles are exposed to, say, oxygen, they'll catch on fire, which is precisely what caused most of the radiation exposure from Chernobyl. But don't worry, say the utilities - it's inherently safe. If so, why do taxpayers need to substantially bear the burden of liability in case of accidents? Let's not forget that if the 9/11 hijackers had taken a detour and crashed into the Indian Point cooling pool (they flew right over it), they would likely have killed 100,000 people instead of 3,000 if the wind was blowing in the right direction. Outraged yet? Keep reading. The bill, which must seem like a godsend to the utilities, authorizes the pilot construction of a nuclear plant to produce hydrogen for fuel cells. Forget that we can produce hydrogen with wind power at almost no cost; instead, the Bush Administration has in store a plan to build hundreds of nuclear plants to produce hydrogen. We'll have clean power for our cars, at the price of hundreds of millions of tons of nuclear waste spread all over the country. How helpful is that? In fact, this plan is simply a backdoor to build more nuclear plants while they posture at being environmentally friendly. This isn't just about us. It's about our children, and their children, going forward to all future generations. For some perspective, Julius Caesar was assassinated by disgruntled senators a mere 2,000 years ago. By law, we have to maintain and protect the waste produced by these plants for fifty times that. The entire sweep of human history
Re: [biofuels-biz] Foolproof process
Dear Franky, I am sure that there a many people in the group who can help you. I think it would assist us to assist you if you could provide more information: 1) What is the oil you are using? Is it new, crude vegetable oil or refined oil? 2) If you follow the procedure set out in journeytoforever, what is your titration value? How much free fatty acid is present in your oil? 3) Do you understand the need for a strong mineral acid (such as H3PO4 or H2SO4)as a catalyst in the first stage of the two-stage process? 4) Why did you decide on 20 gm of NaOH for the one stage process? Are you removing free fatty acid as a soap perhaps? 5) Some people have reported better conversion if KOH is used as a catalyst with some oils. Some prefer the idea of making potassium phosphate as a by- product. That can also be part of their preference for H3PO4. 6) Alcohol/oil ratio depends on whether you are talking volume, mass or molar ratio. In fact 3:1 on a molar basis is really the bare minimum for most simple oils and it only gives about 83% conversion anyway because the reaction is reversible. Most people use 6:1 molar and we are currently exploring 9:1. I don't know anyone using 1 kg alcohol to 1 kg of oil or 1 litre of alcohol to 1 litre of oil either. In general the two stage process uses a little more alcohol than the one stage process. (Our group here in Thailand think that alcohol recovery is a good idea economically as well as from the point of view of safety and health enhancement). 7) Which alcohol are you using? I presume it is methanol but it would help to get this clarified. Look forward to hearing from you Michael Allen Thailand On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 21:32:11 +0800, Simon Franky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, my name is franky from Indonesia. I'm doing some research about making biodiesel with 2 stages process. I have some questions,maybe you can help me answer it. 1. What is the use of H3PO4 in that process,if I don't add H3PO4 to my oil,what will happen? 2. The amount of NaOH is 3,1-3,5 gram.I think that's to little for the transesterification process (because for 1 stage process I use 20 gram NaOH) 3. If I use KOH, how many should I add to my oil? 4. How many alkohol should i use?In your article I read, I counted that the ratio between alcohol and oil is 1:1 (total alcohol for step 1 and 2) . With that amount of alcohol,will my oil change to biodiesel? Thanks for your attention,I hope I'll get the answer as soon as possible. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] diester oil
Thanks Winny. Just goes to show that you can't leave a perfectly good generic chemical name kicking around without someone registering it as a trade name! Diester oil is a commercial name for biodiesel. It is a german company WDS -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Levent Yuceer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: donderdag 26 juni 2003 7:49 Aan: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Onderwerp: [biofuels-biz] diester oil Hi all, Can anyone give more information on diester oil? I am confused about the chemical structure. Surely it is not diglyceride, is it? Regards to all. levent yuceer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work.
Dear Hakan, Your summary of hydrogen production technology is, IMO, spot on. However you say nothing about the distribution losses that have always plagued City Gas (which also contains carbon monoxide). This is not, as is commonly supposed, just caused by poorly maintained pipes: The hydrogen molecule is so very small that it can pass through atomic sized gaps. As a consequence, some pretty sophisticated equipment is required for its compression, storage and distribution. Even stainless steel pipes can lose hydrogen molecules! When I was working with the stuff, I was warned of the severe explosion risk caused by hydrogen lines, particularly in ducts, due to its very wide flammability range and its ability to find the smallest hole to escape through. I also remember that I was on no account to put my finger over a leaking hydrogen jet because the small molecule would pass through my skin and cause an embolism. In fact the only advantage of hydrogen storage and transportation that I ever discovered was that it doesn't hang around when it leaks: It heads straight up and tries to leave this planet. For this reason, hydrogen carrying pipes were/are always brought around the outside of buildings. It is true that NASA has made some truly remarkable advances in the safe handling of hydrogen. But somehow I can't see my local filling station being able to match NASA even though they have considerable experience in handling compressed natural gas (CNG) and liquid propane gas (LPG) as transport fuels. Hydrogen is in an entirely different league. And then, of course, there is hydrogen embrittlement . . . . . . Regards Michael Allen On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 07:09:01 +0200, Hakan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here is some more thought provoking parts in my article the scam artists at work The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work. As mentioned, it is around 80 years old technologies and have been used in submarine technologies for a long time. It is often talked about as the energy solution for the future. The most common source of hydrogen (City gas), is gasification of coal and it has been used as City gas for a century. It can be produced by electrolysis of water, but the electricity needed is very close to the energy gained. If the electricity is produced by hydrogen also, it becomes negative. The future value of hydrogen is not really as an energy resource, when not produced from fossil fuels, but more as a conversion and energy storage method. Only in a situation of large coal reserves and/or large electricity surplus production, hydrogen would be valuable as fuel. In short term the large electricity production could come from nuclear and other traditional sources and on very long term Solar and Wind production could come into play. Hydrogen is like the fairy tales. To make 10 kW of Hydrogen from renewable source like electrolysis of water, you need 9 kW of electricity. Where is that electricity coming from? You do not need much knowledge to see that it is not enough hydrogen in this process, to produce more Hydrogen. To produce electricity from Hydrogen in fuel cells it is 30 to 50% efficiency, the same as a NG or diesel electricity plants. So if you put your 10 kW of Hydrogen in a fuel cell, you have 3 to 5 kW to use. Where did the original 9 kW come from? I think that the scam artists at work have some basic (nucleus) plans for this. Hydrogen was very much in use 50 years ago and is still common in the former Soviet Union. It is called City Gas and produced from gasification of coal. The major known reserves of coal are in US, Russia and EU. The use of coal have gone down and with the current use of coal, the known reserves will last around 200 years (R/P value). For US the R/P value is 235 years, but in a Hydrogen economy the R/P values will rapidly go down to double digits. It is a worrying attitude, sold by the scam artists at work. They want you to believe that coal is a salvation, even if the usage goes up 3-4 times and that US still would have coal for 235 years. It might come as a surprise for many, but it does not work that way. The more you use of a finite resource, the faster it will be finished. For me it is logical, how about you? Hakan ** If you want to take a look on a project that is very close to my heart, go to: http://energysavingnow.com/ http://hakan.vitools.net/ My .Net Card http://hakan.vitools.org/ About me http://vitools.com/ My webmaster site http://playa.nu/ Our small rental activities ** No flag is large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people -- Howard Zinn Nobody grows old merely by living a number of years. We grow old by deserting our ideals. Years may wrinkle the skin, but to give up enthusiasm wrinkles the soul. - Unknown Biofuels at Journey to Forever
Re: [biofuels-biz] Props Conversions
Hi Joey, Keith's inspiring work on JourneytoForever\Vegetable Oil Yields lists the quality standard (RKQualitatsstandard) for rapeseed oil as being between 900 and 930 kg/m^3 and later, on the same e-page, he quotes Waste Vegetable Oil as a Diesel Replacement Fuel by Philip Calais as saying Canola oil has a density 920 kg/m^3. (They are, of course, the same oil: It is just that a PR-savvy marketeer in the US thought that the US-housewife might well resist anything to do with rape) Our palm-oil here in Thailand normally has a density of about 910 kg/m^3. Now because the US still doggedly clings to British Imperial Units with some curious local variations, you will need to know that 1 ton US only gets you 907.1847 kgs. So one US ton of palm oil has a volume of 907.1847/910 which is pretty close to 1 cubic metre and is very easy to remember. Of course, if you really want to use the quaint US volume measurements too, then 1 cubic metre is about 264.17 US gallons or 6.29 barrels (bbl). A typical oil drum holds about 200 litres (52.8 US galls or 44 ancient UK gallons) so you might expect to get 5 drums of cooking oil to weigh just about 1 US ton. However you look at it, 1) 5000 US tons a year would be about 500 drums a week and 2) The SI system of units has much to commend it. Regards Michael Allen Although I have earnestly read each article to pass through biofuels-biz, this is my first post; SO, I'd like to quickly thank everyone for contributing such essential information as we strive to convert a once whimsical substitution into a full-blown industry. Keith, you're an absolute monster and an inspiration, keep truckin'. Special thanks to Ed Beggs for being a master. Now, does anyone have a remote clue on how to convert Weight in tons to Volume in Gallons with vegetable oil as the medium? For example, if one metropolitan center in the U.S. accumulates 5,000 tons of vegetable oil in one year's time, is there any reliable way of determining the volume of such? As well, in certain waste-processing-oriented reports and papers, greases and fats are referred to by color. I think that the term used for vegetable oil and like substances is Yellow grease or oil. Is anyone aware of the type or quality of yellow in such documents? Would this be isolated vegetable oils, or impure mixtures? Thanks everyone. PS. I'm working on a project that'll get everyone giddy, I'll keep you posted. Joey Hundert Transcendental Ventures Inc. Edmonton, AB Canada Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] diester oil
Dear Levent, A mono ester (such as most fatty-acid methyl esters used for biodiesel) have just one ester group (-COO-) somewhere close to the end of a largish molecule some 16 or 18 carbon atoms long. This 'chain' can be terminated by any aliphatic group such as methyl-, ethyl-, butyl-etc. A di ester has two ester linkages usually at near each end of that long chain of carbon atoms. So the chain can be terminated by two aliphatic groups to make a di-ester. You can see that such a molecule would have similar properties to conventional biodiesel except that it carries more oxygen with it. One consequence is that you would probably get fewer kilometres to the litre. Another is that it would probably be cleaner burning (depending a bit on what else is attached to that carbon chain). Regards Michael Allen On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:48:56 +0300, Levent Yceer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Can anyone give more information on diester oil? I am confused about the chemical structure. Surely it is not diglyceride, is it? Regards to all. levent yuceer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Palm Oil as a Fuel for Agricultural Diesel Engines: Comparative Testing
Dear Marc, Good idea! I think young Keith is putting it onto journeytoforever. Regards Michael Allen On Thu, 15 May 2003 10:21:57 +0800, Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would it be possible to post this report to the Files area of the group? It would save emailing it to every subscriber who wanted it...like me. Marc de Piolenc Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/uetFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Palm Oil as a Fuel for Agricultural Diesel Engines: Comparative Testing against Diesel Oil
Hi, Some of you keen SVO people may remember that about six months back, I mentioned that palm oil had been recently tested in agricultural engines in Thailand. At the time, I was editing the paper for my Thai colleagues so ethically I was unable to give biofuels-biz any specific details. All I could assert was that refined palm oil had been used successfully for over 2000 hours whereas crude palm oil (CPO) caused engine failure within 500 hours. (This observation was based on my personal observations obtained while working with them. So were my comments on engine wear.) Well the paper on the trials with refined palm oil has now been published by ny colleague Gumpon Prateepchaikul and I am pleased to attach a copy (in English) for those interested in comparitive tests against petro-diesel. Regards Michael Allen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] questions from New Zealand
Dear Chanti and Prof. AK, So pleased to hear that you both enjoyed New Zealand! Perhaps you could ask your friendly pig farmer to contact me so I can put him in touch with biodiesels and universities who are active in New Zealand at present. Because New Zealand is the largest manufacture of methanol in the southern hemisphere, he should find it fairly easy to get one major ingredient. We also make quite a lot of ethanol from dairy waste (mainly lactose) but that (IMO) sensibly goes into making gin! The handling, transport and storage of these materials is regulated (of course) by the Department of Occupational Safety and Health (OSH) and the Dangerous Goods Act amongst several others. One interesting feature of diesel usage in New Zealand is that heavy commercial road transport is required to have a tamper-proof hub-meter so that they pay a tax on kilometres of road they have travelled. (Why should other road users subsidise the operation of commercial trucking ?) Smaller diesel powered vehicles are required to pay a road tax BEFORE they travel those costly kilometres. In effect, they buy a license to travel so many kilometres over the next six months or so (without reimbursement if they get it wrong). This means that the pump price reflects the production cost and its fuel tax only. Currently this is 69c NZ /litre = 38c US/litre = 1.44 US$/US gal. A couple of companies already make biodiesel from tallow (we have s few meat factories and freezing works!). However most of them find it economically pretty marginal. And, if the biodiesel is to be used for powering vehicles on the roads, that road tax is still payable! I have worked with a pig farmer in Fiji to produce methane on which he can run his vehicles. Because Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) is still used in NZ by quite a large number, I would expect your friendly pig farmer to use methane as a fuel rather than biodiesel. But, whatever he decides, the technology he needs is already available locally. Regards Michael Allen 18/03/03 19:06:52, Chanti Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings We are two women from California travelling in New Zealand. We run our truck on bio-diesel in the states and are part of a cooperative, and we have met a man here who is keen on the idea and wants to start a bio-diesel business. He is a pig farmer who collects veggie oil and food waste for a living and so he is basically all set up! Our questions in helping him are that we don't know the legalities, requirements, permits, etc... we know that each country is different but if anyone has experience, contacts, ideas - we would love to hear. Does anyone have any info about making ethanol from food waste? Thanks and blessings, Chanti Smith __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Reactor for Biodiesel!
Dear Gann, Your e-mail is addressed to Keith but I can probably answer some of your questions: Thanks Keith for your information, in fact I already got a copy of that. By that you mean the paper by D. Darnoko and Munir Cheryan, I think? Anyway, just another few questions, during the transesterification process, the mixture (Oil and methanol) eventually getting hotter or cooler? You want to know if the reaction is exo-thermic or endo-thermic? I can't help you there except to say that the enthalpy change is pretty small and can be neglected without much error. We are trying to measure it at present but we really need a sensitive differential thermal reactor system to do it properly. You might find the enthalpy of formation for some of the fatty acids but I doubt that you will find much thermodynamic data on the glyceryl or methyl esters in the literature. Anyway, natural oils contain a variable mix of this lot so the formal petro-chemical type of approach won't work here.
Re: [biofuels-biz] details about mixing pump
Dear Murilo, Conventional corrosion needs a freely ionisable solvent such as water for attack to take place. There is some water in methanol and in vegetable oil but it is dissolved and not ionised. (Try measuring the pH to see what I mean!) As a consequence, pumps handling methanol and oil, even though there is some sodium hydroxide around, will not be seriously corroded. The same is not true for the water washing system. True chemical attack can still occur however and I would recommend that cast aluminium alloy pump parts be avoided. It is more in your area of study (ie the microstructure of materials), but I would expect some hydrogen formation along the grain boundaries in impure aluminium which would IMO could cause embrittlement. 25/02/03 09:37:45, Murilo D. M. Innocentini [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, Could anybody please tell me if the mixing pump for a small-scale biodiesel processor needs a special requirement in terms of corrosion/chemical attack? Does the base catalyst type affect its performance? It seems from several pictures in the web that even a simple washing maching pump works in this case. Is it true? Thank you all, Murilo D.M. Innocentini Group of Engineering and Microstructure of Materials Department of Materials Engineering Federal University of Sao Carlos Via Washington Luiz, km 235 13565-905 Sao Carlos - SP - Brasil Tel. 00 55 16 260-8253 Fax. 00 55 16 261-5404 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online-No late fees! Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/bbvVKB/oEZFAA/46VHAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] skin on biodiesel
Thanks Paul, I'll try to follow that up. Currently in Thailand, we wash the BD made from stearin with almost indecent haste. Of course, if the skin comes from near the BD/glycerol interface, we should suspect methanol evaporating from the glycerol. So is the skin on the top of the BD or really on top of the glycerol? Others participants have already raised the matter of 1) whether it is BD soluble or 2) water soluble 3) Affected by separation time, 4) Disappears in the wash. Are we sure we are all talking about the same skin Thanks again Paul - there is nothing like a few facts to muck up a perfectly good theory! : - ) Michael Allen 12/12/02 00:39:00, rpg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael, have noticed that raw biodiesel from tallow readily forms a skin as it cools, but the same BD after washing does not. Paul Gobert. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Things Therrmodynamic
Hi Murdoch, Ad hoc comment: One of the issues that tugs at me when I have seen recent debate (or quasi-science or shouting) over whether some of the biofuels are sustainable is that the fuel itself, if it is a relatively simple standardizeable not-horrifically-toxic chemical, is a somewhat *separate issue* from how it is derived. So, a debate over the sustainability of ethyl alcohol as a fuel of the future, whether it took place in the 30s or today, should include the concept that while it may well be presently sourced from much agriculture or semi-agriculture, I'd think we could somehow *manufacture* such a fuel, going forward, by new innovative methods as well. What is to prevent us, with all the scientists we have sitting around, from taking some solar-derived electricity and trying to make such relatively simple chemical compounds as ethyl alcohol from widely available chemicals such as water and CO2 and O2 and what-have-you. Another ad hoc comment: I guess the problem is just basic thermodynamics really! And you can't beat it. Just about every carbohydrate and hydrocarbon that occurs in nature can be constructed from water, CO2 and O2 . The Big Search is to find a series of selective catalysts or enzymes so you get just the one product that you want and not the complete organic catalogue. Even common yeast hasn't managed to make ethyl alcohol free of by-products and it has been sitting around in incredibly large numbers for a lot longer than all the scientists. And of course we humans would rather like alcohol which is free of water to run our vehicles. As it happens, this universe was cobbled together with some strange little quirks. One is called hydrogen bonding. It is responsible for keeping water as a liquid at most temperature encountered on planet-Earth. And even when it turns solid, the ice has a strange property of floating. (I'm sure you'll agree that both of these properties are highly desirable.) Well the strangely strong bond between ethanol and water is also (in part) due to hydrogen bonding. So any fermentation or water-based ethanol process has this big energy hole where we try to separate the two. And for those of you who think that moleculart sieve is a kind of angel dust which magically separates water and ethanol, look carefully at the extra energy you have to put into your expensive dehydrating agent just to recycle it. There is no such thing as a free lunch! Incidentally, the quirky hydrogen bond is also responsible for that azeotrope between ethanol and water. This means that even the earliest humans could make a relatively safe potable spirit from just about anything which will ferment. In effect, they let botany do most of the synthesis from CO2, water and O2 for them using widely available sun-power. Perhaps we should simply give up motoring and take up mellow drinking. It's much easier technologically. : - ) Entropy Rules OK? [_]? [_]? [_]? Michael Allen Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] skin on biodiesel
Padraig, Thanks for the information. We have a locomotive in Thailand running 300 kilometres a day on a 50:50 blend of biodiesel:petrodiesel. The biodiesel in primarily methyl stearate because it is made from the waxy solid stearin/palmitin that separates out of the olein in the palm oil. We've even had it analysed by gel chromatography. In 1983, I had a student here in New Zealand making biodiesel from tallow (which is also primarily stearin). [Hey Keith! Perhaps I am the real Father of Biodiesel in New Zealand! Now what I need is a second-rate journalist to do my PR . . . . ] If there are any drying oils present in the oil (such as linseed, fish or flax-oil), oxidation of the relevant unsaturated fatty acids can be expected to form a polymeric film on the biodiesel/air interface. It reforms every time the surface is broken until it is all reacted with the air. I wonder if that could be an alternative explanation? Wendell, what do you think? Could there be any unreacted and unsaturated FFA present? Padraig! Glad to hear you got the paper OK! E-mail from southern Thailand was just slightly less reliable than it is from here in New Zealand. Regards Michael Allen 11/12/02 01:21:31, goat industries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Allen's question: What makes you so sure it is methyl stearate? Do you have a reference for this perhaps? This conclusion is one of my own drawn through my own experiences with making biodiesel from waste oil. There is no research reference that I know of. What do you think it is? By the way, did you ever receive that paper I sent you entitled Kinetics of Palm Oil Transesterification In a Batch Reactor by D. Darnoko Munir Cheryan ? Yes thanks! I did! Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Enzymic Production Methods
Hi Wendell, Try Enzymatic alcoholysis for biodiesel fuel production and application to the reaction to oil processing by Yuji Shimada*, Yomi Watanabe, Akio Sugihara, Yoshio Tominaga Osaka Municipal Technical Research Institute, 1-6-50 Morinomiya, Joto-kit, Osaka 536- 8553, Japan The paper appeared in the Journal of Molecular Catalysis B: Enzymatic 693 (2002) 1-10 Abstract Biodiesel fuel (fatty acid methyl esters; FAMEs) can be produced by methanolysis of waste edible oil with a lipase. The degree of methanolysis was low in reaction systems so far reported, and the lipase catalyst could not be reused in spite of using immobilized enzyme. We clarified this problem was due to the irreversible inactivation of the lipase by contact with insoluble methanol (MeOH). Based on this result, we developed a stepwise methanolysis system with immobilized Candida* antarctica lipase. Two-step batch methanolysis was most effective for the production of biodiesel fuel from waste oil: the first-step reaction was conducted in the presence of 1/3 molar equivalent of MeOH for the stoichiometric amount, and the second-step reaction was performed by adding 2/3 molar equivalent of MeOH. If the immobilized carrier is destroyed by agitation in a reactor with impeller, three-step flow reaction will be available: the first-step substrates were waste oil and 1/3 molar equivalent of MeOH; the second-step, the first-step eluate and 1/3 molar equivalent of MeOH; the third-step, the second-step eluate and 1/3 molar equivalent of MeOH. The conversion of waste oil to biodiesel fuel reached 90% in the two reaction systems, and the lipase catalyst could be used for 100 days without decrease of the activity. The stepwise alcoholysis could successfully be applied to ethanolysis of tuna oil. Keywords: Biodiesel fuel; Alcoholysis; Candida antarctica lipase; Fixed-bed bioreactor, Docosahexaenoic acid ethyl ester As I understand it, problems with enzymatic processes so far have been low rate, poor yield, low purity and problems of enzyme separation. But this recent paper suggests that at least some of these problems have been overcome. The corresponding author. can be reached at: Tel.: +81-6-6963-8073; fax: +81-6-6963-8079. E-mail address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Y. Shiraada) Also an old friend and colleague of mine, Mohammed Farid, has a student working on the enzymatic process. He can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hope that helps Regards Michael Allen 11/12/02 19:33:18, Wendell Wait [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone know of any BD being produced using lipase type enzymes that are bacterial/plant derived? I came across a Russian abstract concerning esterification of LCFA?s using enzymes from castor. Surely in our biotech age and where technology is so readily available for the determination and production of enzymes, that a group could be produced to produce the transesterification rxn at room temp and most importantly in an aqueous environment. This could well and truly simplify the processing. Of course ethanol could then be used in place of methanol so that a truly ?organic? source of BD be produced. W. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] biofuels-homebrew problems
Dear Padraig, What makes you so sure it is methyl stearate? Do you have a reference for this perhaps? By the way, did you ever receive that paper I sent you entitled Kinetics of Palm Oil Transesterification In a Batch Reactor by D. Darnoko Munir Cheryan ? I have received no acknowledgement. Do you wish me to send it again? Michael Allen currently in New Zealand 6/12/02 07:04:29, goat industries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Wendell, The skin that you are talking about is a common occurence with WVO. It is wax which forms in contact with cold air above the liquid surface. You will also notice a skin forming on the insides of your tanks. The wax will be methyl stearate. Paddy Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Vanitas! Vanitatum! Et omnia vanitas!
Oh Sadness Keith! : - ( Does it really come as a surprise to you that that University Press releases in New Zealand may well be written by second-rate journalists over whom the academic staff have little or no control? (Probably recent graduates!). Surely recent events in the US have amply demonstrated that degree courses (notably MBA's) do not necessarily instill ethics into sub-professional students. And does it further surprise you that a student does all the work ferreting out Alex Kac's method through JourneyToForever and yet the University PR department gives the (Associate) Professor all the credit? Has it ever been any different? And are you really shocked that the aforesaid fund-seeking Prof. actually accepts this misplaced eulogy?? Keith! I salute your idealism! Cheers! You get my Three Tankard Award for Misplaced Idealism in 2002 [_]? [_]? [_]? (Had A/P Sims been called The Father of New Zealand Biodiesel you might well have gone ballistic and become the first biofueller in space!) To follow up another thread, there has been no synthetic petrol production since February 1997 , and in April 1999, Methanex New Zealand permanently closed the methanol to petrol unit at the Motunui Plant.: http://www.med.govt.nz/ers/en_stats/edfonlin/edfjuly2002/edf072002a.pdf This public document contains an overview of the countries energy resources, renewable and otherwise. The preceding sentence to the above quote contains In 2001, 36% of New Zealand's natural gas extracted was used for petrochemicals for the production of chemical methanol and ammonia/urea production.. I believe that this makes New Zealand the largest methanol producer in the southern hemisphere. So, on behalf of the people of New Zealand, I would like to thank all you biodieselers out there for helping us use our non-renewable resource as fast as we can. Fortuitously, it was NZ methanol we were using in Thailand to make biodiesel (Just one word you will note Hakan!). Every 200 litre drum had New Zealand --- Making it Happen writ large upon it. So with that admonition and your help Keith, how could I possibly fail to make quality biodiesel out of palm oil? And thank you Hakan for your very kind words about New Zealand: I escaped a particularly bad NZ winter by working in Thailand but right now we are having some very pleasant weather indeed: Where I live, it is nearly as hot and humid as Thailand right now. Incidentally, I have passed your nice comments on to the Public Relations Department of the Ministry of Tourism but, as it is probably staffed by failed journalists rejected by the University PR departments, don't expect any credits! : - ) I expect to see Iminent Swede Likens NZ to Home or Dr. Hawking of Oslo University, Copenhagen Likes Kiwi Weather before the week is out. And thank you also for your kind words Keith. I'm currently working on the design of two different continuous biodiesel reactors for use in Thailand and also tweaking the Thainglish in a paper for my Thai colleagues on the work they did with straight palm oil (SPO) in all those Kubota tractor engines last year. It will be nice to get it published so that the SVO gang have something other than just my assertions to quote. And I'm still trying to keep up with all this biofuels-biz! I had over 120 of these merry missives awaiting me when I logged on again last week! What a serious and prolific lot you are. Regards Michael Allen New Zealand 30/11/02 19:34:18, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now Mr. Addison, We wouldn't be implying that ethics, principles, morals, ethics and just plain professional courtesies are excessively abbreviated, if not altogether non-existent amongst far too many of the human species, would we? :-) Todd Swearingen :-) No, we wouldn't. Too many yes, but it's still rather low, IMHO. A bit higher in the Internet virtual community, sadly, but not very surprisingly. And rather high in the corporate world, though still not even approaching a majority, I don't think. But corporations are not humans. Krugman gives a good view of why it's been on the increase, a good read: For Richer by Paul Krugman http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/20/magazine/20INEQUALITY.html?ex= 1036041836e or here, if you don't want to sign in at NYT: http://faculty.purduenc.edu/arw/gbg344/For%20Richer.htm http://www.humanrightsmonitor.org/article573.html We often get ripped off. I wrote to the guy and got the usual hurt surprise: all in the cause and all that, along with a few cheap hits and red herrings (said he had no control over what journalists write, but it wasn't journalists, it was his own press office). Standard performance. What Mark gets told when such folks try to hijack the homebrewers' WVO supplies - it's for our own good or something. People are generous, others, a small minority, take advantage of that. We want
Re: [biofuels-biz] speedy separation on a large scale
Dear Todd, I'm glad Samai pulled you up on all that circumlocution and persiflage! That'll larn you! You have a huge audience out here in the Real World (which for some reason you all insist on calling the Third World -- it isn't of course --- we sadly only have this One World to stuff up). Now I'm pretty sure that you were just trying to say Keep it Simple (KISS?) and I entirely agree with you. Craig, Todd is correct that there is a possible penalty in going high tech. Here are a couple of ideas for you to think over: 1) The depth of the interface between the methyl ester and the water is pretty constant because it depends on the rate of molecular diffusion between the two materials. As a consequence, a silo design of separator has a much smaller volume of ester/water emulsion than does a swimming pool design. So your overall inventory of the mixture is greater in a swimming pool which may mean that your overall yield is substantially reduced. It can also be more difficult to find a sharp interface in a vessel with a large aspect ratio (such as a swimming pool). One solution is to accumulate any interface or suspect material in a slops unit where it can be subsequently separated. But the size of the slops unit obviously depends on that inventory. 2) Octyl sebacate, nonyl phthalate and several other esters of fatty acids are used to plasticise PVC and other vinyl products. While methyl stearate and palmitate may not actually attack vinyl, they may very well make them swell and so weaken the vinyl mechanically. You are very wise to carry out tests but you should be aware that it may take years to complete them satisfactorily. So I think Todd is right on the button when he suggests you should design a containment system to cover a split in your vinyl swimming pool. Tom, To return to your original question, both Westfalia and Alfa-Laval make centifuges for separating oils from water. They are available in a variety of sizes as you will see if you have a look at westfalia.com and alfalaval.com (I think they are the right addresses but a quick GoogleSearch will find them). Both companies are also most helpful in testing actual samples of your material and fine tuning their equipment to meet your requirements. However you may be somewhat taken aback by the price: The reason is that these things whirl around at several thousand rpm and need exact machining and balancing for them to work safely. Centrifuges are much smaller than swimming pools and have a high throughput. But they have the lowest running costs only when they are running continuously. If you like to post a process flow diagram, I may be able to come up with some further suggestions Best wishes Michael Allen Process Engineer New Zealand 2/12/02 05:30:09, Craig Pech [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are looking into a more high tech approach - above ground swimming pools. They price out at $1300 for a 7500 gallon pool. We have subjected the vinyl liner to BioD for a few days to see if it degrades - so far it has stood up well, but we will continue the exposure test. Should be good for final separation and settling. Craig - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 11:32 PM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] speedy separation on a large scale What you are looking for is generically called a gravitational separation pond, more often than not incorporated with the use of a chronometrical device to ensure adequate differential acquisition of products and co-products. Both of these apparati can be dimensionalized to meet your production needs. :-) Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Tom Branigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 10:36 AM Subject: [biofuels-biz] speedy separation on a large scale Hello, can anyone give me a rough idea of the types of centrifuges or liquid liquid separation equipment that could be used for the separation of glycerol from biodiesel, and the separation of water from biodiesel. (as in after washing) I have no expertise in this kind of equipment and would appreciate greatly any help on the matter. I am aiming at a plant to produce 15000 litres of biodiesel per week. Tom _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels
Re: [biofuels-biz] Dept. Weights Measures decommissioning B100 pumps!
Dear SAFF, If you have the volume of 1 kg @ 15C and the volume of 1 kg @ 20C, (that is the 1/densities), then you have the coefficient of volumetric expansion over the range 15 to 20 C. It is simply (1/dens1 -1/dens2)/(20-15) and it is in units of K^(-1) Sadly I fear that this is just a beginning of your problems because you South Australian Department of Weights and Measures must already know how to calculate the coefficient of volumtric expansion from the densities at any two temperatures. (Unless, of course, they have a new definition of coefficient of expansion . . . . . ) Lots of luck Michael Allen Thailand --- movember [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 17th October, an official from the Govt. Department of Weights Measures visited a SAFF service station in Adelaide, South Australia, and decommissioned its B100 Biodiesel pump. This SAFF service station is the only retail outlet for biodiesel in South Australia. The reason for the decommissioning was that the pump being used for dispersion was Patented for the dispensing of Petroleum Diesel Fuel and not for any other fuel and therefore is not approved for dispensing of any other fuel, including biodiesel. In Australia, no pump type has yet been approved to dispense B100 biodiesel fuel for sale. To help with an approval process, the Department have asked us for the following: 1) Kinematic Viscosity for Biodiesel at 15 and 20 degrees C; 2) Density of Biodiesel at 15 and 20 degrees C; 3) Thermal Expansion Coefficient for Biodiesel. The first two parameters are easy for us to test. However we have been unable to find any information relating to the Thermal Expansion Coefficient for Biodiesel, nor any standard test method for measuring the thermal expansion coefficient for a liquid such as biodiesel. We would very much appreciate any information that could help with the approval process. Regards, Mike Jureidini Biofuels Consultant - SAFF __ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Foolproof method vs Canakci/Van Gerpen (high FFA)
I endorse our thanks to Paddy for that paper! Our successful esterification of palm oil containing 9 to 13% FFA requires 4ccs of conc. sulphuric acid per litre not 2 as Aleks suggested. We also react them together at 65C (under reflux) not 35C and allow the mix to cool to 35C quite slowly over 8 hours. Thus total reaction time is well in excess of two hours. But then it probably was for Aleks too. There is some evidence that sulphuric acid reacts with the carotene and other pigments in crude-palm oil because it changes colour. There may be other reactions that take the sulphuric acid out of circulation. During our experimental work, I had the distinct impression that the goalposts were being moved while the reaction took place! Certainly some experimentation with Alek's basic method is worthwhile. But hey! Aleks . . . . . wherever you are and if you are reading this, a great place to start with esterification-transesterification reactions ! A BIG thank-you! Regards Michael Allen Thailand --- movember [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks to Paddy for forwarding me the Canakci/Van Gerpen study Biodiesel production from Oils and Fats with High Free Fatty Acids. This paper should be of great assistance. It is worth mentioning here that the pretreatment of the FFA's (esterification with methanol, utilising sulphuric acid as catalyst) uses a slightly different method than Aleks's foolproof method: 1. The reaction temperature is 60 degrees C, rather than Aleks' 35 degrees C. 2. Catalyst (H2SO4) concentration was much higher (5% to 25 % by oil volume, compared to Aleks' 0.1% by volume. Could anyone shed some light on the above? Cheers, Mike __ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos More http://faith.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Straighter-than-straight vegetable oils as diesel fuels
the use of a centrifuge to remove the stearin. (It was implicated in the erosion problem along with the FFA and it tended to block the fuel filter). Well, leaving aside the question of whether a centrifuge of the cream separator variety is really low-tech, density differences between CPO and stearin were too small to get separation without close temperature control. And so we came to biodiesel. As it happens, there are several 1 tonne units operating already in this area of Thailand (though I doubt that they comply with anyones Health Safety Regulations). They, of course, use waste cooking oil as their feedstock. And the technology is indeed more complicated than of simply squishing the stuff out of a handful of palm-nuts in a low-tech press. But it is quite comparable with the process needed to refine CPO into SVO. This year we have been concentrating on processes which will produce a decent fuel from high free fatty acid crude palm oils. I think we have succeeded. (In part due to Keith and Journey to Forever which gave us a head start). Anyway, we are just starting our engine tests on a bunch of new motors and The New Fuel. So dear friends, please be careful when you compare that lovely (but already refined) SVO with biodiesel. SVO is indeed a great fuel, particularly for old fashioned stationary engines with a fixed load eg diesel electric generators or pumps for water irrigation. But you are kidding yourself if you think that the oil or coconut palm actually provides it in the form and composition that you need for this task. Jatropha, Jojoba and Soy may be much more obliging in this respect but I can assure anyone interested that you will be unable to back up your ute to a palm-tree for refuelling in at least the next couple of years. But I also want to assure you that, even as we speak, we are working on it! Michael Allen Thailand --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am interested in learning more about this comment on palm oil SVO experience. Michael wrote: If it gets reasonably unviscous at 75-80 deg C, maybe it's more suited to a dual-fuel pre-heated SVO system. Not for DIs though. Tried that. An agricutural diesel working on a fixed load with this SVO runs for about 300 hours before it croaks. Curiously, one result is the thickening of the lube-oil to a tarry viscous material. Sound familiar?. Incidentally, using the commercial de-acidifying process and a phosphoric degumming stage makes the refined SVO a much more suitable fuel. Under identical conditions, it gave over 500 hours and was only stopped because stearin precipitation in the fuel lines and filter gave problems (including spark-erosion of the piston head). __ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos More http://faith.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Straighter-than-straight vegetable oils as diesel fuels
Dear Reinhard, Our official report to our sponsor went in a couple of weeks back. It is of course possible that they will want us to do some more work on CPO/RPO but at this moment in time, all the photographs, data etc. are strictly their property. I'll try to get back to you when the situation is clearer. Regards Michael Allen Thailand --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Michael Allen, I read your very interesting report of using plant oil in mobile diesel engines. I am interested to post your report with some photos in the Jatropha website www.jatropha.org. If you dont mind, I would like to ask you for some photos (paper or electronic) and your e-mail address, so interested people can contact you. Kind regards Reinhard Henning Michael Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Our work is of an out-reach nature as well. Part of our objective is to stabilise prices that farmers can receive for their products. *Some background on Southern Thailand Agriculture* Here in southern Thailand the major agricutural products are rubber (and rubber-wood) and palm-oil. Prawns are grown in ecologically disastrous ponds when the price is right. Rice is not extensively grown locally because the climate produces only two good crops a year. The highly photogenic Asian water-buffalo has been largely replaced by the diesel-powered two-wheeled tractor. Fishing is also a sizable industry and uses diesel engines attached to a long-shafted propeller (the long-tail) for in-shore fishing or big grunty diesels in purpose-built vessels for long-line squid fishing etc. Farmers and fishermen have experimented with SVO and SVO blends with kerosene for many years now but both refined coconut oil and refined palm-oil can be sold at a price which is comparable with diesel. Reliable facts on pollution and engine damage produced by crude vegetable oil (CVO . . . . Crook Vegetable Oil?) experimentation are hard to come by due to the general enthusiasm of the proponent entrepreneurs who are naturally somewhat coy about discussing their failures. In August 2000, I was asked if straight palm-oil could be used to run diesel engines. Based on some work with which I was associated in New Zealand, I assured my colleagues at the Prince of Songkla University that it could. (Hell! We had fired up diesels on butter and biogas in New Zealand! I was on a sure thing here!) So we ran a Kubota diesel on 50:50 SVO:petrodiesel, then 80:20 and then 100:0. Based on this, we applied for financial support to find out just how much refining was (un)necessary to make an acceptable diesel fuel. Over a year, we ran seven diesel engines on palm-oil: 3 were in field tests on actual tractors or fishing boats, one was in a home-made truck which delivers fertiliser off-road, and three were in test-beds here at the University. They were all identical in design: And they all had to be run in on petro-diesel because they were all equally new. In the test beds, we used a standard test based on the Japanese standards for agricultural diesels. (don't have the designation to hand). The only engine modification was to bring the exhaust out through the fuel tank and fit a small plastic tank and associated valves to start up the engine (and shut it down) on petrodiesel. We measured fuel economy under a variety of engine loads (achieved with an alternator and electric light bulbs). We looked at air pollution and volumetric efficiency amongst other parameters. After 500 hours of continuous use, we shut them down, took them to bits, re-weighed the engine pieces (valves, pistons, rings, bearings) and examined them visually. And now the bit that you are all interested in: The engines worked just fine on refined palm oil. That is oil which has been de-gummed with phosphoric acid and had fatty acids removed by saponification with sodium hydroxide. Yes folks! Sadly, you do need some chemicals and simple process engineering to make most vegetable oils work. Just because you don't do it in the back-yard doesn't mean that it has not been done --- perhaps in one of those big centralised processing plants we all despise :-) We discontinued the trial after 2000 hours of running (with the engine hardly missing a beat). Now, as I said, the process of refining puts the finished product into a price category comparable with the retail price of petrodiesel (including some tax). In Thai currency, this is about 12 to 13 baht/litre with diesel oscillating around 14 to 16 baht/litre depending somewhat on who the US is threatening today. To the oil farmer, his crude palm oil (CPO or perhaps CVO if you prefer to distinguish it from the SVO even though it is actually straighter than straight ) may be worth only 2 or 3 baht/litre so quite
Re: [biofuels-biz] High FFA oils - another way
Hi Keith, --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Michael And I think it is also thumbs up for Alek's esterification-transesterification process with the same CPO. (At least with a few local modifications). Right now, the brew is in its finishing stages down in the lab. I'll let you know how it goes. How did it go? A little perplexing. It worked quite well . . . on that occasion. But efforts to simplify the process have failed. It seems that someone out there keeps shifting the goal posts! Perhaps we did not note down a critical value or two . . . . . . . I think we have a time-temperature-concentration problem where several side reactions are possible. I also think we have established that there must always be excess methanol present so if temperatures rise to 70C, . . . . well we must be in trouble. And we find tht there are several products which will be quite stable at 70C . . . . shower-gel, shampoo, hard soap . . . . Incidentally, the identical process as gives trouble with 9% FFA works very well with 2.6% FFA CPO's We are still working on the problem. But thanks to you, we now have a relatively simple process which can be applied commercially (even if the losses are substantial). I refer to your saponification-transesterification proces (S=T ??). For us, this process has the added advantage that it provides some feedback to the CPO producers about the excessive amounts of FFA they are producing. Much of this XS can be avoided by proper plant management anyway. It is also a simple extension of the process they already carry out to reduce FFA in their product (so why doesn't that produce the necessary feedback ) Bad news. That's what Aleks was saying about stearin. He doesn't want to have anything to do with it. And yet, perhaps due to its low FFA, we get a great product from palm-oil stearin. (We use the simple transesterification process). The product is still running that locomotive from Hadyai to Sungei Golok and back each day. But one early batch was a tad crook as my southern hemisphere friends might say. Incomplete reaction caused stearin to precipitate out and block the loco fuel filters. Not too serious but caused a premature oil filter change. The trick with stearin is to keep the temperature close to (or above) 65C. A cunning ploy is to introduce the methoxide into the bottom of a deep reactor. The hydrostatic pressure keeps the methanol liquid for a while and, as it boils, it exposes a much larger surface area to the oil. But a condenser is a useful addition to such a reactor anyway. We are now exploring a total reflux system in which the condensed methanol is pumped back to the bottom of the reactor rather than just letting it trickle back to the top surface. Regards Keith And to you Michael Allen Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Fwd: [Biodiesel] Re: liquid glycerine?
Hi Todd, You could perhaps have added that soaps made from saturated fats such as stearin are harder than those made from unsaturated fats such as olein. As a consequence, impure glycerol which contains stearin-based soaps (coconut, tallow etc.) should be more solid than a glycerol which contains olein-based soaps. (Provided of course that they are similar in concentration, dispersion etc. etc. etc.) Regards Michael Allen Thailand --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Crude glycerin does not solidify at room temperature. It's the soaps combined with the glycerin that give cause for any type of solidification. I suppose that technically glycerin with a higher solidified soap fraction, such as waste oils from animal fats, is indeed crude. But in such cases the soap volume is generally higher than the glycerin volume, which would mean that calling it crude glycerin would be incorrect. Technically it should be named after its greatest fraction - soap. When attempting to find a buyer for the glycerin, most won't accept it until the soap stock has been removed. They can contend with the water, alcohol and general discoloration. But they cannot as a general rule contend with crude soap contaminated with glycerin. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 9:02 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] Fwd: [Biodiesel] Re: liquid glycerine? Pardon me, but this below is crap, is it not? It's the fatty acid portion that's saturated or unsaturated, not the glycerine portion. Or could this be the result of poor processing and an incomplete reaction? Thanks! Keith Just as important as the amount of FFA's is what the oil actually is made from. If the oil is normally solid at room temp such as tallow, the glycerine will go solid much quicker than glycerine from oil that is normally liquid at room temp such as canola. Even if it is new oil in both cases. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM --- --~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] High FFA oils - another way
Paul Keith, Thank you for your response. Paul: I tried slaked lime on some of our high FFA crude palm oil and had similar results to Keith. Leaving it overnight to settle gave me only about 15% recovery of the oil. Part of the problem is the very high viscosity of our CPO which is rather like mayonnaise even at 30 degC. Things just don't settle in this goo unless you heat the brew. If you heat it does it settle? We did. To 80C. But separation was not good: Bottom layer soap, middle layer unreacted lime, thin top layer oil. Avoiding excess Ca(OH)2 would certainly help. Terry's suggestion of quicklime has some merit because it takes the water out of the gloop as it esterifies the FFA but it still has such a low density that it doesn't settle for us. We probably need barium oxide or maybe something made from spent nuclear fuel rods! No offers about the procurement of nuclear waste have yet been received! Keith: For the same reason, we find your cold NaOH treatment won't work for us. In fact our yellowy-orange mayonnaise turns into engine grease when we mix in the NaOH solution at 30 degC. Mind you, this crude palm oil (CPO) titrates at 18.5 ml 0.025M NaOH/(ml of oil) That's rather an unreasonable level of FFA - what would it be, about 50% or something? Unless I am doing my sums incorrectly, that comes to 13% expressed as palmitic acid or 14% expressed as oleic acid. And hey, this is one of our better crude palm oils! Could you manage to mix only 10 ml thoroughly in one litre of oil? Isn't the NaOH likely to get used up on only some of the oil before it's thoroughly mixed? That's why I took to using a bit more water - 40 ml/litre of oil, maybe a bit more with sticky stuff like that. at 80 degC in the oven just to see if anything settles out overnight. And it did! The trick was to carry out the reaction in the 70-80C range and settle it at 80C. Most of the soap floated to the top at this temperature. We got about 70% recovery of the oil after soap separation. This oil subsequently formed methyl ester without any problems. So it's thumbs up for Keith and the saponification-transesterification process! And I think it is also thumbs up for Alek's esterification-transesterification process with the same CPO. (At least with a few local modifications). Right now, the brew is in its finishing stages down in the lab. I'll let you know how it goes. I found heating the oil made it more likely to turn into a soapy mess rather than just dropping out the saponified FFA. I'd been heating it to 55 deg C. Soap density is too similar to our oil density around 55C. 80C worked well but it still took 8 hours to get good separation at that temperature. But with that oil you may have to resort to the industrial caustic refining method - 100% water (or something) and either heat or not, and separate it with a centrifuge. :-( That works too and we can get about 70% recovery of the oil in that saponification process also. Almost all of the water lands up with the soap and may affect its density. This could explain why the local commercial lads can make their soap sink and avoid the use of a centrifuge. If it gets reasonably unviscous at 75-80 deg C, maybe it's more suited to a dual-fuel pre-heated SVO system. Not for DIs though. Tried that. An agricutural diesel working on a fixed load with this SVO runs for about 300 hours before it croaks. Curiously, one result is the thickening of the lube-oil to a tarry viscous material. Sound familiar?. Incidentally, using the commercial de-acidifying process and a phosphoric degumming stage makes the refined SVO a much more suitable fuel. Under identical conditions, it gave over 500 hours and was only stopped because stearin precipitation in the fuel lines and filter gave problems (including spark-erosion of the piston head). Or for a pressure biodiesel process, or enzymes. Yes I think that you are correct. For the pressure process, my calculations indicate a general time reduction in both reaction and settling if we go to just 2 bar. This is mainly because of chemical kinetic and viscosity effects of elevated temperatures. But I have yet to test this out. Lipidases look to be quite a promising line for enzymatic ester formation but the literature available to me indicates poor yields and extended residence times. Thanks again for your response. Very much appreciated. Michael Allen Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel
Re: [biofuels-biz] David Suzuki Foundation: Climate Change: Take Action
Ed Todd
I once knew a girl called Canadia . . . . .
We kids used to corrupt it to Can-hardly-hear
I really hope that doesn't apply to your Canadia!
Michael Allen
Thailandia
--- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I wondered when that might get a rise out of
someone. It's taken
years just to get the first expression beyond a
raised eyebrow
:-)
Thanks for the belly laugh!
And yes! We will give the suggestion the highest
consideration.
Either that or simply grant it back to the Indian
nation.
Todd Swearingen
.Ohioa! What a knee slapper...!
- Original Message -
From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] David Suzuki Foundation:
Climate
Change: Take Action
Canadia?
Where's that? North of Ohioa?
Anyway, why don't you declare the 220 acres to be
Canadia,
hoist the flag,
and lead the world in lowest per capita energy
use?
;-)
Ed
on 9/20/02 9:25 AM, Appal Energy at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ed,
If Canadia is willing to extend honorary or real
Canadian
citizenship to all occupants of this 220 acres,
we'll be
happy to
throw in by meeting and exceeding on our part
Kyoto
requirements.
Can I presume that we can forego the formalities
of dual
taxation
save for the maintenance costs of maintaining
dual citizen
registry on paper? That would permit even
greater
achievements in
fossil fuel consumption and biofuels production.
Who knows, maybe in this way Canadia can
recapture much of
what
was lost in past centuries.one island at a
time.
:-)
Todd Swearingen
- Original Message -
From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel-JTF biofuel@yahoogroups.com;
biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 10:41 AM
Subject: [biofuels-biz] David Suzuki Foundation:
Climate
Change:
Take Action
http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Change/Kyoto/Action.asp
Above is an online Fax form to support
Canada's Prime
Minister
in moving
Canada to ratification of Kyoto.
The fight is on - Alberta, our oil-producing
province (also
rich in
renewables, but they are barely conscious of
this, it
seems!)
has launched a
$1.5 million campaign against it, even though a
majority of
the
polled
population there is in agreement with
ratification!
The premier of Alberta , Ralph Klein, is
therefore perhaps
not
serving the
will of his own province's population.
Faxes to our PM from all over the world will
help
ratification.
If you can,
this only takes a few minutes. Let our leaders
here know, if
you think
Canada should become a leader in conservation
of energy and
use
of
renewables.
PM wants a plan in place by Oct. 8 - time of
the essence.
Thanks and best regards to all.
Regards,
Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
Located in the Okanagan Valley, British
Columbia, Canada
1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
http://www.biofuels.ca
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yahoo! Groups
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Re: [biofuels-biz] High FFA oils - another way
Paul: I tried slaked lime on some of our high FFA crude palm oil and had similar results to Keith. Leaving it overnight to settle gave me only about 15% recovery of the oil. Part of the problem is the very high viscosity of our CPO which is rather like mayonnaise even at 30 degC. Things just don't settle in this goo unless you heat the brew. Terry's suggestion of quicklime has some merit because it takes the water out of the gloop as it esterifies the FFA but it still has such a low density that it doesn't settle for us. We probably need barium oxide or maybe something made from spent nuclear fuel rods! Keith: For the same reason, we find your cold NaOH treatment won't work for us. In fact our yellowy-orange mayonnaise turns into engine grease when we mix in the NaOH solution at 30 degC. Mind you, this crude palm oil (CPO) titrates at 18.5 ml 0.025M NaOH/(ml of oil)and contains MANY STRANGE THINGS from the palm-nut kernel oil also in there. (I shouldn't be surprised if it is quietly polymerising!) Right now I am holding a litre of it (treated with 18.5 gms of NaOH dissolved in 10 mls of water) at 80 degC in the oven just to see if anything settles out overnight. Regards Michael Allen Thailand --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello again Paul I tried slaked lime to remove FFAs as you suggested. The filtering is a pain, and the result wasn't very good. It did take out some FFA, but it didn't neutralize the oil, though I used an excess. I didn't titrate it afterwards, maybe I should have, but that would have been yet another step, and I think I'd have been titrating residual lime as much as anything. Unless I'd washed it out, which might not have been too effective, and yet another step. Whatever, it didn't reduce the FFA sufficiently - I tried to transesterify it with the basic amount of lye, 3.5 gm/litre, but it wasn't nearly enough. I didn't continue with it after that to find out how much would have been enough, didn't seem to be any point, but I reckon it would have needed twice that much or more. The caustic refining step is much simpler - no heating, no filtering, nothing extra - and it works well. Also I reckon the soapstock is useful, but I don't think the deposit the lime leaves you with is useful. I fine-tuned the caustic refining step a bit and got 80% production from oil titrating at 9.15 ml. I can only get 75% production from that oil with a single-stage base process, and this is much easier. It's a lot quicker and simpler than acid-base - though again acid-base gives higher production and uses less lye. But lye's cheap, and 80% is okay for dirty oil like this. Terry suggested CaO, quicklime, which is not easy to come by these days, though I do have some. Maybe I'll give it a try. But actually I'm quite satisfied with this caustic refining step - what Michael more correctly called saponification-transesterification. Definitely preferable to single-stage base for high-FFA oils, and a useful alternative to acid-base. Best wishes Keith Hello Paul - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuels-biz] High FFA oils - another way snip I found an easier way though: two-stage base-base, only the first stage doesn't use methanol, it uses (horror!) water. Mix the titration amount of NaOH, in this case 9.15 grams per litre of oil, with 40 ml of water per litre of oil. Add the dissolved NaOH to the oil (room temperature), stir gently by hand until thoroughly mixed. Settle overnight. This leaves soapstock at the bottom and some gunk floating on the top. The water is apparently in the soapstock. Filter to remove soapstock and gunk - no need for fine filtering, fine steel mesh will do (like a fine tea strainer). Now process as usual for virgin oil - 3.5 grams NaOH per litre of oil, 20% methanol, 55 deg C, good and prolonged agitation as usual. Good product, production rate in this case 73%, slightly less than a normal single-stage, but it's a much easier process that won't go wrong, and it's nice not to have to make such strong methoxide as a straight single-stage process would require with this oil, 13.65 grams of lye per litre oil, or more like 14 grams (needs a bit of excess lye). snip Slaked lime (CaOH2)can also be used to remove the FFA from WVO or high FFA biodiesel rescued from overuse of NaOH (gel) with acetic acid. You settle it with acetic acid? I think the resultant FFAs just dissolve back into the biodiesel then. Mix the lime into the WVO/BD and heat with occasional stirring to 100 deg C. The lime appears to dissolve in WVO as heated but is probably just held in suspension. Cool decant and filter. No problems with ammount of lime just use excess. Thanks Paul
Re: [biofuels-biz] High FFA oils - another way
Hi Keith, The (palm) oil producers around here in Southern Thailand titrate their oil to find the FFA and add the precise amount of sodium hydroxide in water to squash it so that they can sell the oil to the companies who refine it further to food grade. The sodium hydroxide solution used is quoted as 30 Baume (which means it has a specific gravity as 1.262 or roughly 262 grams of NaOH dissolved in a litre of water). Incidentally, the soap layer can be made to float or sink (so I am told) by the temperature at which they react the FFA with the aqueous sodium hydroxide and subsequently settle it. Certainly the separation is pretty clean with no appreciable water turning up in the oil. The soap layer can also be densified by gentle stirring or paddling. No effort is made here to prepare free fatty acids from the soap because the demand for FFA is insufficient. In Sri Lanka, I remember that FFA were made by the steam hydrolysis of coconut oil some 20 years ago and the process was considered to be economically marginal then. We have explored the possibility of refining the crude palm oil ourselves as part of the overall process of biodiesel production and this sounds to be essentially identical with your base-base process using sodium hydroxide. (Perhaps we should call this saponification-transesterification even though it is a bit ponderous.) Now what to do with all this greasy soap . . . . . . The slaked lime process is new to me although I know that calcium soaps are the basis of most lubricating greases. But in that case they physically grind the calcium hydroxide with the vegetable oil to get the soap to form. (Mr CAStoR OiL has been doing this rather successfully for a few years now!) It sounds as if this reluctance of Ca(OH)2 to react with the oil could be an advantage if it only the FFA that you want to remove. And, as a bonus, any small amount of calcium stearate/palmitate which lands up in the biodiesel is probably not detrimental to its performance. Anyway, I hope to get around to trying the process you describe fairly soon. Michael Allen Thailand --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been working with some high-FFA oil, titrating at 9.15ml, which I think is equivalent to about 23% FFA content, in this case. So go acid-base of course. Short of that, it's not easy to process oil like this with the usual single-stage base process. You're likely to end up with about 50% production half the time, and maybe not a very good product, and glop the rest of the time. If you're really precise with everything you can do it - we've been getting 75% production, single-stage base, good product, easy wash. I found an easier way though: two-stage base-base, only the first stage doesn't use methanol, it uses (horror!) water. Mix the titration amount of NaOH, in this case 9.15 grams per litre of oil, with 40 ml of water per litre of oil. Add the dissolved NaOH to the oil (room temperature), stir gently by hand until thoroughly mixed. Settle overnight. This leaves soapstock at the bottom and some gunk floating on the top. The water is apparently in the soapstock. Filter to remove soapstock and gunk - no need for fine filtering, fine steel mesh will do (like a fine tea strainer). Now process as usual for virgin oil - 3.5 grams NaOH per litre of oil, 20% methanol, 55 deg C, good and prolonged agitation as usual. Good product, production rate in this case 73%, slightly less than a normal single-stage, but it's a much easier process that won't go wrong, and it's nice not to have to make such strong methoxide as a straight single-stage process would require with this oil, 13.65 grams of lye per litre oil, or more like 14 grams (needs a bit of excess lye). You can (I think) add the soapstock to the glyc layer after separation and neutralize as usual to separate catalyst, glyc and FFAs. It's an alternative - better than straight single-stage base for oil like this, and while it won't get as a high a production rate as acid-base, and it uses more catalyst and gives you more co-products, it's very quick and simple, and the product is good. Best Keith __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Back-yard cracking
Lee, While I agree entirely with Todd, I can see that you are just busting to give it a go. There are several forms of cracking processes and subsequent re-forming carried out in your friendly neighbourhood oil refinery. But historically, they all grew from thermal cracking and the very wide range of products it produces. This thermal cracking and primary separation was carried out in a device called a pipe-still. I'm sure that text-books and professors in your local University or technical College could give you access to diagrams and pictures. Have a look in your local technology museum. About 1920 ish So, if you really want to give it a whirl, get yourself a piece of 6 dia pipe with 1/2 ins thick walls and weld a flat bottom onto one end of it. Use a piece of steel with a thickness of at least 1/4 ins and make sure that the weld is a good one. (Your life may depend on it!) Cut an internal thread at the other end of your pipe section so you can screw in a reducer to bring the diameter down to about 2. You will probably need about 12 feet of 2 pipe to screw into the end of this unit and with several 1 diameter branches, each of which runs to a condenser. (This can be as simple as a rag which is kept wet all the time draped over the outside of these side pipes). Mount the whole thing vertically and insulate everything but the pot at the bottom. Mineral wool is probably best but fibre-glass will do. Cover the insulation with aluminium foil if there is any chance that the rain or your condenser water could wet the insulation. Now put your oil in the pot at the bottom before you screw it to the 2 ins dia pipe-still supported above it. The pot will have to be heated to at least 200C before the oil starts cracking and the separate fractions start to appear at the side pipes. A charcoal fire should do the job. But a gas burner will work as well or even better: It has the advantage that if your weld leaks, the hot oil will not drain into the fire! :-( You will have difficulty in getting enough oil into a short length of the 6 ins pipe so I have not specified the length. You can decide that when you design the burner to do the job. A series of gas burners working over a large pot may be the answer here. (Visit that friendly neighbourhood oil-refinery and see how they do it) One of the first improvements that was made in the pipe-still was the provision of a continuous feed of oil to the pot. The second was the recycling of the gases that came out of the top of the pipe so that they provided fuel for the furnace. Early problems were with the side branches coking up with tarry residues for which there was no commercial application. Someone had the bright idea of using the gunk that was left in the pot as a tar-seal for dusty roads! And so tar-macadam was born: an engineered system of road-building and sealing that made possible the modern, high-speed motor vehicle. If this all sounds like re-inventing the wheel, well it is! You will certainly need to carry out a lot of experimentation before you can rival the overall efficiency of that friendly neighbourhood oil refinery. And you will doubtless have the environmentalists howling at your door asking questions about black smoke, tar, dioxin production and polyaromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) content. Better get yourself a good lawyer! Especially if you are going to try this without a good chemical engineer on hand. Do let me know how you get on. Good luck Michael Allen Thailand --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lee, Catalytic cracking is a rather involved chemical and mechanical process, conducted under high temp and quite often high pressure. Primary and co-products are extracted at different stages throughout the process, using multitudes of techniques. One look at a petrochemical facility and its multiple fractional distillation toweres should give you an idea that, no matter what scale the, in general the process is intensive in design. Which puts the process in general out of the hands of shadetree biodieselers. Mind you, working with a simple product containing but a handful of different esters would be far easier than a bbl of crude with its multitudinous co-products. But the intensity of the mechnics, processes and procedures would still be a hurdle. I'd say that you might care to pick up a loaf sourdough and a couple bottles of wine, then corner your favorite professor in chemistry for a little sit down chat. Talk is usually inexpensive. It's when you have to start buying all the stainless, valves, fittings and vessels and putting them together under the tutilege of a professional that the kroners start to add up. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lee Sheppard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Cracking So then maybe building a solar cracking unit might be a option
[biofuels-biz] Work proceeding on high(ish) FFA
Hi Keith, I spent seven hours yesterday trying to get the drawings to you and finally gave up an went to the pub! [_]? [_]? [_]? I'll try to send it again . . . . as soon as my headache clears ;-) For esterification, the Fool Proof method of Aleks (journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html) recommends a reaction time of one hour at 35C followed by an indeterminate time (at least eight hours . . at an indeterminate average temperature as it cools. Two hours mixing, second hour without heating, then at least eight hours, which should be mostly at rT. Our rT is 30 degC which should enable a reaction to go quietly to completion. Only it doesn't appear to. This process leaves us with sufficient FFA at the end to give problems in the transesterification. I previously mentioned that from laboratory work carried out in 1 litre beakers, we know that 36 hours at 35C is more than enough for 5% FFA. And, as a result of my last overnight reaction, I now know that 12 hours at 55C is more than enough for 2% FFA crude palm oil (CPO). As I type this, we are trying the same process with 9% FFA CPO. Provided that this is successful, we will then successively reduce the time (but not the temperature)and study soap formation in the transesterification. Incidentally, we can find no advantage in allowing the reactants to cool before shifting on to the esterification. There is very little settling of the water (if any) so separation is impracticable. From our work, it appears that the only advantage of 8 hours settling time could be to prolong the time of the reaction at rT (whatever that may be for you). Todd: Our resident alchemist says he is currently working on those yellow metallic flakes at the bottom of the glycerol tank and can't be bothered with the crystals. Paddy: While the esterification of FFA cannot produce glycerol(it produces water instead), the TRANSesterification of just about any vegetable or animal oil must produce glycerol as a by product. So sadly : No glycerol . no TRANSesterification! And yes . . . . I would very much appreciate a copy of that paper! Thank you Michael Allen __ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Work proceeding on high(ish) FFA
Hi Keith, I spent seven hours yesterday trying to get the drawings to you and finally gave up an went to the pub! [_]? [_]? [_]? I'll try to send it again . . . . as soon as my headache clears ;-) For esterification, the Fool Proof method of Aleks (journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html) recommends a reaction time of one hour at 35C followed by an indeterminate time (at least eight hours . . at an indeterminate average temperature as it cools. Two hours mixing, second hour without heating, then at least eight hours, which should be mostly at rT. Our rT is 30 degC which should enable a reaction to go quietly to completion. Only it doesn't appear to. This process leaves us with sufficient FFA at the end to give problems in the transesterification. I previously mentioned that from laboratory work carried out in 1 litre beakers, we know that 36 hours at 35C is more than enough for 5% FFA. And, as a result of my last overnight reaction, I now know that 12 hours at 55C is more than enough for 2% FFA crude palm oil (CPO). As I type this, we are trying the same process with 9% FFA CPO. Provided that this is successful, we will then successively reduce the time (but not the temperature)and study soap formation in the transesterification. Incidentally, we can find no advantage in allowing the reactants to cool before shifting on to the esterification. There is very little settling of the water (if any) so separation is impracticable. From our work, it appears that the only advantage of 8 hours settling time could be to prolong the time of the reaction at rT (whatever that may be for you). Todd: Our resident alchemist says he is currently working on those yellow metallic flakes at the bottom of the glycerol tank and can't be bothered with the crystals. Paddy: While the esterification of FFA cannot produce glycerol(it produces water instead), the TRANSesterification of just about any vegetable or animal oil must produce glycerol as a by product. So sadly : No glycerol . no TRANSesterification! And yes . . . . I would very much appreciate a copy of that paper! Thank you Michael Allen __ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] some clarification?
Keith, Todd, My statement about the hard white crystals was not to be taken seriously! It was just a gentle way of asking Paddy what the hell he thought he had in the those three quite non-mysterious layers. Diamonds ?? Michael --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael, Beat's the bejeebers out of anyone here as to what a crystalline structure capable of scratching glass would be at the bottom of a wash tank. You don't have any dishonest cousins in the diamond business do you? We've used wash waters that swing 1.0 + or - either way of neutral, inclusive of shallow well water, creek water, brackish water (sulfonated) city water and distilled, and such has never happened here. And were it a waxy crystalline structure, there would be no scratch potential. Mineral deposits could leave the appearance or feel of scratched glass, but can easily be removed using a mild HCl acid solution. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Michael Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 5:24 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] some clarification? Dear Paddy, It's great to get some input from a knowledgable person such as Michael Allen Thanks for the ego massage Paddy but it's even greater to have some input from someone with the knowledge AND EXPERIENCE that Todd has! I think that this demonstrates the real value of the biofuels-biz group. And thanks Todd . . . . . Now about these very hard whitish crystals I get at the bottom of the wash-tank sometimes . . . . they seem to scratch even glass . . . . . could they be . . . . :-) --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Mr. or Ms. Goat, The contents of the middle layer to which you refer are largely dependant upon the degree of reaction completion, the reaction type (acid/base or base) and the processing steps used (principally in an acid/base). The belief that this layer is primarily soap is largely in error, as soap is soluble in water. However soap does emulsify oily substances. The white layer you refer to is largely an emulsification. The extent of the emulsification is greatly dependent upon how well the initial reaction was conducted. Incomplete reactions when blended in 50/50 ratios with water in 55 gallon lots can result in literally as much as several feet in depth of emulsification. A complete reaction should yield no more than a fraction of an inch of an emulsion layer. The three layers yielded from a catalyst recovery attempt are from bottom to top: A) neutralized catalyst in precipitate form. B) crude glycerin (but not quite so crude as previously) consisting of glycerin, water, discolorants and perhaps excess acid. C) recovered free fatty acids (soaps that have been broken down by the acid to FFAs) with perhaps a fraction of soluble alkyl esters. The small alkyl ester fraction will be largely dependant upon your previous separation technique (how much biodiesel is imported into the FFA recovery process) and to what degree the FFA recovery process is acidified. As the ester fraction should be small to non-existant, it is almost of no consequence to know that alkyl esters in either an acid or base environement are continually reverting between FFA and ester throughout an equilibrium reaction. Chances are that a FFA recovery step will be acidified in slight excess and all or almost all esters that existed at the beginning of the process will be non-existant by its end, having reverted to FFAs. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: goat industries [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 2:40 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] some clarification? It's great to get some input from a knowledgable person such as Michael Allen - Michael, could you do us a favour and tell us: a) what is the major component of the 'creamy' middle layer in the post wash methyl ester/water mixture that is commonly called soap? b) what are the three layers that are formed when crude, black, glycerine is neutralised with acid? Your help would be greatly appreciated! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM --- --~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http
Re: [biofuels-biz] interface layer- was some clarification
Keith, The server was down all the weekend and is very slow right now. Please confirm that you have received the attached diagram and photograph and I'll send the other two. This condenser is used to collect and condense methanol from the reactor. The product can be recycled to the bottom of the reactor during the reaction(s) so that we can operate under total reflux or it can be used to recover methanol from the biodiesel. We have not used it to recover methanol from the glycerol fraction yet because of the problem in making the glycerol flow if we do. The reactor and condenser were also designed to work up to 2 bar although we have not done that yet. Our reasoning is that all chemical reactions procede faster at higher temperatures. The maximum temperature we can achieve is limited by the vapour pressure of the methanol at that temperature. So total reflux allows us to operate up to 60C at atmospheric pressure (and 80C at 2 bar). For esterification, the Fool Proof method of Aleks (journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html) recommends a reaction time of one hour at 35C followed by an indeterminate time (at least eight hours . . at an indeterminate average temperature as it cools. There is no doubt that the esterification reaction (with acid catalysis) is much slower than the trans-esterification reaction (with base catalysis). As a consequence, raising the temperature/pressure could significantly shorten the esterification reaction time. But only if the methanol is totally refluxed. I am no longer quite so convinced that water produced in the esterification stage mucks up the trans-esterification. Work I carried out this last weekend with olein (0.5% FFA) indicates that an addition of 4 mls of water per litre of oil has no serious effects on trans-esterification. (You will remember that 3 or 4 mls are produced from a 5% FFA oil). Preliminary laboratory work seems to imply that using 10 time the stoichiometric amount of methanol is essential to push the esterification of high FFA oils in the direction we want. And if we lose any of that methanol (perhaps by carrying out the reaction in an open reactor ???) during the at least 8 hours . . then free fatty acids remain and seriously stuff up the subsequent trans-esterification reaction. After carrying out the esterification under total reflux for 36 hours at 35C here in the laboratory, we had absolutely no problems with soap formation with crude palm oil containing 5% FFA. Maybe 36 hours was overkill but I was determined to get all FFA removed by this method if at all possible. I conclude that esterification (at least) would benefit from a higher temperature plus total methanol reflux. Anyway that is our current strategy to speed up that reaction while eliminanting all free fatty acid. Any ideas would be welcome. Michael Allen __ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: hi ffa feed stocks
Dear Keith, Actually I did understand this, having checked it out a bit and discussed it with a few people, but I understand it even better now - thanks! What puzzled me and mainly why I asked was what you said about methanol excesses. For the whole process, Aleks uses rather less methanol than you'd probably have to use for high-ffa feedstock by most other methods, especially single-stage base. Overall methanol use, not just for the esterification first stage, is about 67% excess, depending on the oil; your 9 to 12 times applies to the first stage only. Well, that's all clear now. Sorry if I mislead you in any way. By the way, there are tables showing the stoichiometric ratios for different oils here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_meth.html How much methanol? Re the condenser, that's one way, but it's hard to separate the glycerine/FFAs/catalyst in the glycerine layer with the methanol already removed. Maybe a better way is to drain off the glycerine layer first, then evaporate off the excess methanol in the biodiesel (it's about half-half in the biodiesel and the glycerine layer). We do indeed drain the glycerol from the biodiesel in the reactor and we have even tried doing this while the reaction is proceeeding as suggested by Aleks. Theoretically, the removal of a product should push the reaction to produce more product (Le Chatelier's Principle) but we have not yet measured any benefits. After separating the glycerine layer (http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html), the rest of the excess methanol can be recovered from the purified glycerine (somewhat purified glycerine). At present, we are setting the glycerol in trays and using it as a soap and general grease remover around the workshop. However . . . . one day . . . I'd appreciate a picture and diagrams, if that's not too much trouble, thanks. Our Internet link is really running slowly at present with many disconnections. I will try over the weekend when traffic is less. So you are using the acid-base process as your main method, with both the 100-l and the 1-tonne reactors? No. The 1 tonne reactor continues to use the base-catalysed transesterification of molten stearine/palmitin. The FFA of this feedstock is quite low (less than 1%). We are exploring the acid-base process with HiFFA feedstocks in the smaller reactor and in the laboratory. We know that the process of refining the crude palm oil reduces the FFA to 0.5% by a process of saponification using an almost stoichiometric amount of sodium hydroxide dissolved in water. But the resultant soap is largely a waste material. Some of our crude palm oil comes in at 10%FFA and the saponification process produces rather a lot of greasy soap from such a feedstock. Even the palm-oil refiners don't like this stuff (which is, of course, why it easily procurable!) By adjusting the temperature, we can remove this soap from the bottom of the saponification reactor rather than skimming it off the top but we still lose too much oil to make it an attractive option. Using Alek's acid-base process on such a feedstock has the potential to replace this useless soap with methyl ester. But it appears that any ester actually formed with the acid catalyst is subsequently broken down and saponified along with the palm oil in the base-catalysed second reaction. The result is a spongy mass of soap which is hard to separate from any methyl ester which may have been formed. The main culprit is, I believe, the water which was formed in the saponification process. (But I could be wrong) We haven't given up entirely on the 10% FFA feedstock but we are going to concentrate our immediate research on the more usual and widely available 5% FFA crude palm oil. Some people have been having trouble using it with crude palm oil (high FFA and high percentage of stearin), but not with olein palm oil. We are some people!! But we find that olein goes like a dream! We have even put together a simple powered-roller reactor which mixes the methoxide with the olein at ambient temperature (30 degC) and takes less than 15 minutes to form the ester. You can even shake them together manually. But we haven't tried olein with HiFFA (yet). Any ideas would be welcome Regards Michael Allen __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: hi ffa feed stocks
Dear Keith, Actually I did understand this, having checked it out a bit and discussed it with a few people, but I understand it even better now - thanks! What puzzled me and mainly why I asked was what you said about methanol excesses. For the whole process, Aleks uses rather less methanol than you'd probably have to use for high-ffa feedstock by most other methods, especially single-stage base. Overall methanol use, not just for the esterification first stage, is about 67% excess, depending on the oil; your 9 to 12 times applies to the first stage only. Well, that's all clear now. Sorry if I mislead you in any way. By the way, there are tables showing the stoichiometric ratios for different oils here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_meth.html How much methanol? Re the condenser, that's one way, but it's hard to separate the glycerine/FFAs/catalyst in the glycerine layer with the methanol already removed. Maybe a better way is to drain off the glycerine layer first, then evaporate off the excess methanol in the biodiesel (it's about half-half in the biodiesel and the glycerine layer). We do indeed drain the glycerol from the biodiesel in the reactor and we have even tried doing this while the reaction is proceeeding as suggested by Aleks. Theoretically, the removal of a product should push the reaction to produce more product (Le Chatelier's Principle) but we have not yet measured any benefits. After separating the glycerine layer (http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html), the rest of the excess methanol can be recovered from the purified glycerine (somewhat purified glycerine). At present, we are setting the glycerol in trays and using it as a soap and general grease remover around the workshop. However . . . . one day . . . I'd appreciate a picture and diagrams, if that's not too much trouble, thanks. Our Internet link is really running slowly at present with many disconnections. I will try over the weekend when traffic is less. So you are using the acid-base process as your main method, with both the 100-l and the 1-tonne reactors? No. The 1 tonne reactor continues to use the base-catalysed transesterification of molten stearine/palmitin. The FFA of this feedstock is quite low (less than 1%). We are exploring the acid-base process with HiFFA feedstocks in the smaller reactor and in the laboratory. We know that the process of refining the crude palm oil reduces the FFA to 0.5% by a process of saponification using an almost stoichiometric amount of sodium hydroxide dissolved in water. But the resultant soap is largely a waste material. Some of our crude palm oil comes in at 10%FFA and the saponification process produces rather a lot of greasy soap from such a feedstock. Even the palm-oil refiners don't like this stuff (which is, of course, why it easily procurable!) By adjusting the temperature, we can remove this soap from the bottom of the saponification reactor rather than skimming it off the top but we still lose too much oil to make it an attractive option. Using Alek's acid-base process on such a feedstock has the potential to replace this useless soap with methyl ester. But it appears that any ester actually formed with the acid catalyst is subsequently broken down and saponified along with the palm oil in the base-catalysed second reaction. The result is a spongy mass of soap which is hard to separate from any methyl ester which may have been formed. The main culprit is, I believe, the water which was formed in the saponification process. (But I could be wrong) We haven't given up entirely on the 10% FFA feedstock but we are going to concentrate our immediate research on the more usual and widely available 5% FFA crude palm oil. Some people have been having trouble using it with crude palm oil (high FFA and high percentage of stearin), but not with olein palm oil. We are some people!! But we find that olein goes like a dream! We have even put together a simple powered-roller reactor which mixes the methoxide with the olein at ambient temperature (30 degC) and takes less than 15 minutes to form the ester. But we haven't tried olein with HiFFA (yet). Any ideas would be welcome Regards Michael Allen __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups
Re: [biofuels-biz] some clarification?
Dear Paddy, It's great to get some input from a knowledgable person such as Michael Allen Thanks for the ego massage Paddy but it's even greater to have some input from someone with the knowledge AND EXPERIENCE that Todd has! I think that this demonstrates the real value of the biofuels-biz group. And thanks Todd . . . . . Now about these very hard whitish crystals I get at the bottom of the wash-tank sometimes . . . . they seem to scratch even glass . . . . . could they be . . . . :-) --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Mr. or Ms. Goat, The contents of the middle layer to which you refer are largely dependant upon the degree of reaction completion, the reaction type (acid/base or base) and the processing steps used (principally in an acid/base). The belief that this layer is primarily soap is largely in error, as soap is soluble in water. However soap does emulsify oily substances. The white layer you refer to is largely an emulsification. The extent of the emulsification is greatly dependent upon how well the initial reaction was conducted. Incomplete reactions when blended in 50/50 ratios with water in 55 gallon lots can result in literally as much as several feet in depth of emulsification. A complete reaction should yield no more than a fraction of an inch of an emulsion layer. The three layers yielded from a catalyst recovery attempt are from bottom to top: A) neutralized catalyst in precipitate form. B) crude glycerin (but not quite so crude as previously) consisting of glycerin, water, discolorants and perhaps excess acid. C) recovered free fatty acids (soaps that have been broken down by the acid to FFAs) with perhaps a fraction of soluble alkyl esters. The small alkyl ester fraction will be largely dependant upon your previous separation technique (how much biodiesel is imported into the FFA recovery process) and to what degree the FFA recovery process is acidified. As the ester fraction should be small to non-existant, it is almost of no consequence to know that alkyl esters in either an acid or base environement are continually reverting between FFA and ester throughout an equilibrium reaction. Chances are that a FFA recovery step will be acidified in slight excess and all or almost all esters that existed at the beginning of the process will be non-existant by its end, having reverted to FFAs. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: goat industries [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 2:40 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] some clarification? It's great to get some input from a knowledgable person such as Michael Allen - Michael, could you do us a favour and tell us: a) what is the major component of the 'creamy' middle layer in the post wash methyl ester/water mixture that is commonly called soap? b) what are the three layers that are formed when crude, black, glycerine is neutralised with acid? Your help would be greatly appreciated! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM --- --~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Looking for a more powerful website? Try GeoCities for $8.95 per month. Register your domain name (http://your-name.com). More storage! No ads! http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info http://us.click.yahoo.com/aHOo4D/KJoEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: hi ffa feed stocks
Hi Keith, In answer to your question: Lets start with a litre of oil. Ours has a density of 910.9 grams/litre so a Free Fatty Acid content of 5% on a weight basis means that 5% of that 910.9 grams is FFA So one litre of oil with a FFA content of 5% (weight basis) contains 45.55 gms of FFA The chemical reaction of esterification is H+ R-COOH + CH3OH = CH3-OOC-R + H2O In other words, 1 molecule of acid reacts with one molecule of alcohol to give one molecule of ester plus one molecule of water . Using the molecular weights and choosing palmitic acid as the predominant fatty acid, we get that 256.42 grams of palmitic acid needs 32.04 grams of methanol to produce 18 grams of water and 270.5 grams of methyl palmitate. so 45.55 grams will need 32.04 x 45.55/256.42 = 5.69 grams of methanol Taking 791 grams/litre as the density of methanol, this means that we need to have a minimum 5.69/791 litres of methanol available for the reaction to go to completion. This is only 0.007 litres! So why do we add 0.08 litres of methanol per litre of oil as set out in First stage para 4 of Aleksander Kac's http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html? Well the = sign in the above equation is to show that it is reversible. That is, if we take the ester and add some water in the presence of a strong acid, we get some free fatty acid formed and some alcohol. (This method is actually used in the analysis of unknown fats and oils ) The main reason we add excess methanol (about ten times as much as the stoichiometric amount needed) is to force the reaction further in the direction we want it go. Removing the water has the same effect so using concentrated sulfuric acid as the catalyst also helps the reaction move over to the right because it is really great at dehydrating things like sugar and human flesh . . . . . . . . :-( But, as I suggested in my note, the excess methanol also dilutes whatever water is left at the end of the esterification reaction. (And we are going to need that methanol for the transesterification stage anyway). When we neutralise that sulfuric acid with sodium hydroxide, we make sodium sulfate which does not bond to water quite as strongly as the sulfuric acid so, as a consequence, I suspect that the water activity probably increases. Incidentally, you can make the same calculation for any fatty acid found in vegetable or animal oils and you will find that between 9 and 12 times the minimum stoichiometric amount of methanol is used in the Aleksander Kac esterification process. For similar reasons, the transesterification process also uses excess methanol: 0.2 litres of methanol/litre of oil is about 1.7 times the stoichiometric amount needed and 0.25 litres of methanol/litre of oil is about twice the minimum amount needed. (Aleksander Kac's two methods). You get slightly different results if you cover all the possible mono-glycerides, di-glycerides, tri-glycerides of all the fatty acids but the above figures are quoted for glyceryl tri-palmitate which is one of the major components in our oil feedstock. This is why I feel that a condenser on the outlet of the reactor is a useful way of saving money. And because chemical reactions go faster at higher temperatures, we can carry out the reaction at a temperature closer to the boiling point of methanol (64.6C) by refluxing all the condensed methanol back into the reactor until the reaction is finished. At present we use a simple copper-pipe heat exchanger and we totally recycle the cooling water through two x 200 litre oil drums working as an evaporative cooler by having a sprinkler over three perforated baking trays. (I'll send you a picture and some plans if you like.) We have assessed the advantages of a condenser with our 100 litre reactor and, as a result, we our currently modifying the 1 tonne reactor used for making biodiesel from stearin. (This 1 tonne unit is the reactor which produces biodiesel for the railway trials) (Sorry to be a tad pedantic and maybe a bit long-winded but it sort of goes with the patch as a Visiting Professor here in Thailand!) Best wishes Michael Allen --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Michael snip Incidentally, with respect to the high free fatty acid feeds, the limit to the amount of FFA possible is probably related to the formation of water in Alek's first stage esterification using sulfuric acid as the catalyst. Thus 5%FFA in the oil means that 4mls of water are produced for every litre of oil. This water increases soap formation in the second stage (which is catalysed by sodium hydroxide). I know about the water, that'd be about right. But I don't know about this: Alek Kak's method (http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html) reduces this impact by using 95% pure sulfuric acid which has a strong affinity for water. He also recommends about 9 times the amount of methanol theoretically needed to react with the FFA
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: hi ffa feed stocks
Dear Marco, I presume that you have read the http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html and their stuff on ethanol? It is an excellent place to start and concisely sets out all the major constraints. Our work with agricultural engines showed that there is a considerable difference between the injection ports of small agricultural diesels so it might be a bit dangerous to generalise. Essentially though, we recommend starting and stopping on petro-diesel (or biodiesel if available). The exhaust pipe for the engine is taken out through a simple one-pass heat exchanger in the palm-oil fuel tank. After about 5 mins running on petro-diesel, the 40 litres of palm oil is warm enough to have similar flow properties as petro-diesel. So we turn off one fuel supply and move to the other. We also recommend running the engine on petro-diesel for the last five minutes of operation too. That way, everything is left free of fatty-acid residues which might cause corrosion (particularly if the engine is not going to be used for a while.) Ambient temperatures here rarely fall below 27C or rise above 34C. As a consequence, SPO is always liquid. This means that with some engines, you can actually start them on palm-oil. But we don't recommend it. Where are you precisely? What sort of engines do you want to use SPO with? What operations do you want the engines to perform (electricity generation, pumping, transport, ploughing etc.). What are your ambient temperatures? I have some experience of using ethanol/methanol blends with petroleum for spark-ignition engines. We did this work in New Zealand about twenty years ago and the results are well documented. However these are highly volatile fuels with low-flash points and are nothing like palm-oil really. Regards Michael --- marcohgcardoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Michael, tks a lot for your help. So, we can use palm oil direct without transes.? WHich motor modifications do you usually do? Do you know how to do the sme process with Ethanol? Or anyone who does it? regards, Marco --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Michael Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Marco, I have plent of Palm Oil. When you mentioned that you used Straight Palm Oil you hadn't transerterificate the oil? That is correct. The first stage of our program was to demonstrate that oil-palm growers could run their farm machinery on straight palm oil (SPO)by making simple engine modifications. The overall aim of the program is to stabilise oil prices for oil-palm growers. That means that we are looking at all aspects of palm-oil use. Incidentally, with respect to the high free fatty acid feeds, the limit to the amount of FFA possible is probably related to the formation of water in Alek's first stage esterification using sulfuric acid as the catalyst. Thus 5%FFA in the oil means that 4mls of water are produced for every litre of oil. This water increases soap formation in the second stage (which is catalysed by sodium hydroxide). Alek Kak's method (http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html) reduces this impact by using 95% pure sulfuric acid which has a strong affinity for water. He also recommends about 9 times the amount of methanol theoretically needed to react with the FFA. This also has the effect of reducing the water concentration. So, for high(er) FFA, more methanol and more sulfuric acid should be beneficial. However, that means more sodium hydroxide to neutralise the acid and some form of methanol recovery system. We use a simple condenser connected to the reactor to grab the methanol. We can either recycle this to the next batch or operate the reactor under total reflux. This makes it possible to operate the reactor at a higher temperature and so accelerate the rate of the separate reactions. Hope this gives you some useful ideas Regards Michael Allen --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Michael Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear David, We did extensive work last year on heated Straight Palm Oil (SPO) in two-wheeled tractors and fishing boat motors. We had field trials by local farmers of four commercial tractors and did test-bed work with three others. Crude palm oil caused erosion of the pistons by late ignition but refined palm-oil (of the grade used for cooking oil) worked well. But we never got around to using it in a locomotive. This year we have been trying a range of reactor designs to optimise methyl ester production from refined oil. We are now moving back through various forms of oil refinement towards the crude palm oil (CPO). And yes, we are currently using the Aleks Kak two-stage process. And yes it is currently at atmospheric pressure (although the reactor was designed to handle 200 kPa mainly as a safety
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: hi ffa feed stocks
Dear Marco, I have plent of Palm Oil. When you mentioned that you used Straight Palm Oil you hadn't transerterificate the oil? That is correct. The first stage of our program was to demonstrate that oil-palm growers could run their farm machinery on straight palm oil (SPO)by making simple engine modifications. The overall aim of the program is to stabilise oil prices for oil-palm growers. That means that we are looking at all aspects of palm-oil use. Incidentally, with respect to the high free fatty acid feeds, the limit to the amount of FFA possible is probably related to the formation of water in Alek's first stage esterification using sulfuric acid as the catalyst. Thus 5%FFA in the oil means that 4mls of water are produced for every litre of oil. This water increases soap formation in the second stage (which is catalysed by sodium hydroxide). Alek Kak's method (http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html) reduces this impact by using 95% pure sulfuric acid which has a strong affinity for water. He also recommends about 9 times the amount of methanol theoretically needed to react with the FFA. This also has the effect of reducing the water concentration. So, for high(er) FFA, more methanol and more sulfuric acid should be beneficial. However, that means more sodium hydroxide to neutralise the acid and some form of methanol recovery system. We use a simple condenser connected to the reactor to grab the methanol. We can either recycle this to the next batch or operate the reactor under total reflux. This makes it possible to operate the reactor at a higher temperature and so accelerate the rate of the separate reactions. Hope this gives you some useful ideas Regards Michael Allen --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Michael Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear David, We did extensive work last year on heated Straight Palm Oil (SPO) in two-wheeled tractors and fishing boat motors. We had field trials by local farmers of four commercial tractors and did test-bed work with three others. Crude palm oil caused erosion of the pistons by late ignition but refined palm-oil (of the grade used for cooking oil) worked well. But we never got around to using it in a locomotive. This year we have been trying a range of reactor designs to optimise methyl ester production from refined oil. We are now moving back through various forms of oil refinement towards the crude palm oil (CPO). And yes, we are currently using the Aleks Kak two-stage process. And yes it is currently at atmospheric pressure (although the reactor was designed to handle 200 kPa mainly as a safety feature. Even so, some enthusiastic welders have overpressurised it twice now through forgetting to flood (and then drain) it with water before modifying the unit). The locomotive I mentioned is running on a B50 blend: It uses esters from a one stage trans-esterification reaction of methanol with the stearin and palmitin which has separated from the CPO. This waxy stuff is probably quite comparable with the good Scottish lard. Lots of luck! Michael Allen --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for your response, prof. Allen. I'll formulate an inquiry to Mohammed Farid as you suggest. You mentioned Thai railway application. I saw somewhere that German railways are using SVO in some of their shunting engines. http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,53591,00.html Choo-Choo Trains on Energy Crunch The encouraging part of your message is you are reacting at 60C and that this is near methanol boiling point. That implies you are succeeding at atmospheric pressure. Do you use conc. sulphuric acid first stage? I agree meth recovery is so simple that using excess is not really a problem. David T. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: hi ffa feed stocks
Dear David, We did extensive work last year on heated Straight Palm Oil (SPO) in two-wheeled tractors and fishing boat motors. We had field trials by local farmers of four commercial tractors and did test-bed work with three others. Crude palm oil caused erosion of the pistons by late ignition but refined palm-oil (of the grade used for cooking oil) worked well. But we never got around to using it in a locomotive. This year we have been trying a range of reactor designs to optimise methyl ester production from refined oil. We are now moving back through various forms of oil refinement towards the crude palm oil (CPO). And yes, we are currently using the Aleks Kak two-stage process. And yes it is currently at atmospheric pressure (although the reactor was designed to handle 200 kPa mainly as a safety feature. Even so, some enthusiastic welders have overpressurised it twice now through forgetting to flood (and then drain) it with water before modifying the unit). The locomotive I mentioned is running on a B50 blend: It uses esters from a one stage trans-esterification reaction of methanol with the stearin and palmitin which has separated from the CPO. This waxy stuff is probably quite comparable with the good Scottish lard. Lots of luck! Michael Allen --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for your response, prof. Allen. I'll formulate an inquiry to Mohammed Farid as you suggest. You mentioned Thai railway application. I saw somewhere that German railways are using SVO in some of their shunting engines. http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,53591,00.html Choo-Choo Trains on Energy Crunch The encouraging part of your message is you are reacting at 60C and that this is near methanol boiling point. That implies you are succeeding at atmospheric pressure. Do you use conc. sulphuric acid first stage? I agree meth recovery is so simple that using excess is not really a problem. David T. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/mG3HAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: hi ffa feed stocks
Hi David, [EMAIL PROTECTED] is running a research project on transesterification of beef tallow. I'm not sure he has heaps of results from his enzymatic process yet but he certainly has references to all the literature you need. (Mohammed is an Associate Professor of Chemical Engineering at the University of Auckland in New Zealand) We are making commercial quantities (1 tonne/day)of biodiesel by transesterifying stearin from palm oil. Indeed, one of the Thai railways routes from Hadyai to Sungei Golok is using a B50 blend of our stuff with petro diesel in their 150km run every day. At the moment I have built a 120 litre deep bed unit for working on a crude palm oil feedstock with the methoxide introduced at the bottom. We have lots of stearin and palmitin (lard!) floating in the olein liquid (and large amounts of free fatty acids) so we have to run the reactor at 60C. This temperature is close enough to the boiling point of methanol that we have to recover the excess methanol to make the process economic. I imagine you would have to do the same with lard. Lots of luck Michael Allen Visiting Professor Prince of Songkla University Thailand --- David Teal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In Scotland, chip shops use lard (animal fat). Last week I took a quantity of such material and tried (admittedly without much confidence) using the same procedure as for WVO (2 stage base). Nothing doing, as expected. I was hoping Aleks' acid/base method would be the answer, but from Todd's reply we might need HTP. Any experience with lard anyone? David T. __ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/mG3HAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuels-biz] Cat converters
Any platinum/rhodium/palladium catalyst is poisoned by sulfur, arsenic, selenium and tellurium. The rate of the damage depends on the concentration of these (and perhaps some other) elements. As a consequence the nature of the fuel is irrelevent. That is why the advantages in a cat-converter of a any low-sulfur fuel can be easily messed up by blending. And the evidence is that the damage is irreversible because sulfides are formed at the active sites. If the bond were largely physical as it is with unburned hydrocarbons or CO, the damage could be reversed. Oil companies go to extreme measures to keep sulfur compounds out of their platformers which use platinum catalysts. They can then blend the product of the platformer with other sulfur-containing fractions to meet the various standards. This is why it needs no new technology to reduce the sulfur content in liquid fuels. However, the problem of sulfur disposal is then that much greater. (The extra cost is, of course, handed on to the purchaser of low-sulfur fuels). There may be some confusion about biogas in the manager's mind. Biogas which is largely methane, can be used to run diesel engines (check your local sewage works or controled land-fill) but it usually contains quite large proportions of hydrogen sulfide. As long as the oil feedstock is free of proteins, the methyl and ethyl esters made from it will be sulfur free. Incidentally, tallow purchased directly from abattoirs should always be 'rendered' first so that any proteins in it can be skimmed from the surface. Hope this clears up the problem and you manage to convince your manager! Michael Allen --- Mccall Tom WP US [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For Gasoline engines... Sulfur in fuel do not bind the catalyst in the converter. They (Sulfur oxides) compete for the active sites on the catalyst. There are only so many active sites and if the fuel has high sulfur then more of these sites that could convert Nitrogen oxides to nitrogen gas and carbon dioxide are being used to convert Sulfur oxides. So fewer site are available to convert Nitrogen oxides to nitrogen gas and carbon dioxide I don't know if it is the same in Diesel catalyst converters? T -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:41 AM To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Cat converters I don't know why he would have cats on a fleet before he secures the type of fuel supplied with 100% certainty. Even low sulfur fuel binds up the catalyst in a converter, quickly rendering it ineffective. However, having a fleet that is fueled without fail from but one source yields the opportunity to run biodiesel with a cat for NOx emissions. Biodiesel is sulfur free. Look to the DIN standard for verification of lack of sulfur content. Mind you that this is only in reference to B-100, as blends of biodiesel and petro-diesel will have sulfur in them (even 50 and 10 ppm EU diesel) and again render the cat useless in short order. What some people consider biodiesel is frequently nothing more than a blend. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: David Teal [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 7:35 AM Subject: [biofuels-biz] Cat converters A prospective biodiesel user (waste management contractor) operates a fleet already fitted with catalytic converters. Can anyone please point to an authoritative reference which confirms that the fuel and the device are compatible? Obviously the workers are in close proximity to the tailpipe emissions, which makes it the perfect application. I just need to convince the fleet manager that his cat won't die. David T. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/7dY7FD/R_ZEAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM --- --~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms
