subject:"\[Biofuel\] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil\?"

Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Luis Eduardo Puerto

I dont know man, but I think they've got a point. sustainable or not, there are many ways to slowly shift towrds other fuels until petro dominance fades away. The world will go on through this process, although this doesn't come overnight. With all due respect to your position, it kinda makes sense. Best regards, Luis. Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:The great thing about the dialog we are having is that it is (conceivably) a permanent record of the times, creating perhaps a smaller task for revisionist historians in the future. The Neo-Conservatives of today will be compared (even more) to the cast of characters in Arthur Miller's "The Crucible".Now all we need is for someone to read
it in a hundred years (assuming our species is still around)....gotta go. My alien implant is bugging me again.MikeHakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: LOL!US have huge amounts of coal, one third of known world reserves. Now it is only left to get the Americans to buy diesel vehicles 1% of current autos, to levels like Europes 50% of current vehicles. So instead of dependance of foreign oil, US will be dependent of foreign autos, but it is a large improvement of the situation anyway. Diesel engines 30% more efficient with smaller autos 50% more efficient and US will be at the level of Europeans. By the way, where is the "freedom cars"? On the streets of Europe! After this, US maybe even discover
biodiesel.HakanAt 23:10 25/04/2006, you wrote:WE ARE SAVED! WELL EXCEPT FOR THE CARBON THING..http://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.htmlThat's sarcasm folks...JoeMike Weaver wrote:Redler, you never like my ideas. You've made me cry. Now how do youfeel? *snif*Ok I can't leave well enough alone. A good friend who follows peak oilpretty closely sent me this. I think it's optimistic at best and prettydelusional at worst. How long will it take (and cost) to get all thiswhiz bang stuff going? There's no doubt in my mind the petro economyis doomed. Now, if we had any sense we'd wean ourselves NOW, while wecan, use whatever technology may work to do it and move to
the nextphase. Even in the best case scenario the price of oil is going tocontinue to climb and climb.They also make the sweeping statement that "the World is not about torun out of oil". The world WILL NEVER run out of oil. There just WON'TBE ENOUGH for everyone to go as we are. I'm sure there will alwasy be atrickle ot two...WeaverMichael Redler wrote:Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists:They concede to:The rising costs of oil explorationThe eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuelThe fact that for every three barrels used there is only one barrel ofnewly discovered oil to replenish
it.At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniquesin exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delaythe peak.They also make the sweeping statement that "the World is not about torun out of oil".What does "about" mean and when will they have the foresight to seethe value of doing something sooner rather than later? Moreimportantly, who is "the World" and when are they going to countcountries (i.e. Iraq) who are slowly losing control of their oil.What a bunch of crap!Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.Mike*/Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/__Correo Yahoo!Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ ___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Mike Weaver

Nah, that was *my* point, the Economist pretty much said don't worry be 
happy - technology will save us.  I was just trying to tweak Redler.

Luis Eduardo Puerto wrote:

 I dont know man, but I think they've got a point.  sustainable or not, 
 there are many ways to slowly shift towrds other fuels until petro 
 dominance fades away. 
  
 The world will go on through this process, although this doesn't come 
 overnight.  With all due respect to your position, it kinda makes sense. 
  
 Best regards,
 Luis.

 */Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* escribió:

 The great thing about the dialog we are having is that it is
 (conceivably) a permanent record of the times, creating perhaps a
 smaller task for revisionist historians in the future. The
 Neo-Conservatives of today will be compared (even more) to the
 cast of characters in Arthur Miller's The Crucible.
  
 Now all we need is for someone to read it in a hundred years
 (assuming our species is still around).
  
 ...gotta go. My alien implant is bugging me again.
  
 Mike

 */Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:


 LOL!

 US have huge amounts of coal, one third of known world
 reserves. Now
 it is only left to get the Americans to buy diesel vehicles 1% of
 current autos, to levels like Europes 50% of current vehicles. So
 instead of dependance of foreign oil, US will be dependent of
 foreign
 autos, but it is a large improvement of the situation anyway.
 Diesel
 engines 30% more efficient with smaller autos 50% more
 efficient and
 US will be at the level of Europeans. By the way, where is the
 freedom cars? On the streets of Europe! After this, US
 maybe
 even discover biodiesel.

 Hakan


 At 23:10 25/04/2006, you wrote:
 WE ARE SAVED! WELL EXCEPT FOR THE CARBON THING..
 
 http://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.html
 
 That's sarcasm folks...
 
 Joe
 
 
 
 Mike Weaver wrote:
 
 Redler, you never like my ideas. You've made me cry. Now how
 do you
 feel? *snif*
 
 Ok I can't leave well enough alone. A good friend who
 follows peak oil
 pretty closely sent me this. I think it's optimistic at best
 and pretty
 delusional at worst. How long will it take (and cost) to get
 all this
 whiz bang stuff going? There's no doubt in my mind the petro
 economy
 is doomed. Now, if we had any sense we'd wean ourselves NOW,
 while we
 can, use whatever technology may work to do it and move to
 the next
 phase. Even in the best case scenario the price of oil is
 going to
 continue to climb and climb.
 
 They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not
 about to
 run out of oil. The world WILL NEVER run out of oil. There
 just WON'T
 BE ENOUGH for everyone to go as we are. I'm sure there will
 alwasy be a
 trickle ot two...
 
 Weaver
 
 
 
 
 Michael Redler wrote:
 
 
 
 Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists:
 
 They concede to:
 
 The rising costs of oil exploration
 The eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source
 of fuel
 The fact that for every three barrels used there is only
 one barrel of
 newly discovered oil to replenish it.
 
 At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and
 techniques
 in exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows
 you to delay
 the peak.
 
 They also make the sweeping statement that the World is
 not about to
 run out of oil.
 
 What does about mean and when will they have the
 foresight to see
 the value of doing something sooner rather than later? More
 importantly, who is the World and when are they going to
 count
 countries (i.e. Iraq) who are slowly losing control of
 their oil.
 
 What a bunch of crap!
 
 Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.
 
 Mike
 
 
 */Mike Weaver /* wrote:
 
 
 http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506
 

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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Mike Weaver

Redler is old.

Michael Redler wrote:

 By the way, even though I quoted the lyrics, I didn't think it 
 came from Zack, I thought it was much older than that (otherwise, I 
 would have given the source).
  
 Mike

 */Jason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 how old are you mike?
 not often do i see Rage's lyrics in a conversation.
 - Original Message -
 From: Michael Redler
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:52 PM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about
 running out of
 [snip]



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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Hakan Falk


Luis,

It is only around a year ago, that we established 
that biofuels would be competitive with an oil 
price of $35 to $40 a barrel, especially 
biodiesel. At the current levels over $70 a 
barrel, biofuels are cheaper than oil. Everybody 
expect that it will stay on this level and even go higher.

The elements are there, for a very rapid growth 
in making biofuels and with current competitive 
advantage it will not go slowly. The question is 
not fuel dominance, but industry dominance. I 
hope that we will see a far more diversified 
energy industry as a result of the situation, now 
that the startup barrier has been lowered so 
much. A more diversified industry, with small to 
mid size producers, will have the opportunity to 
move very fast and the large traditional oil 
companies can not. The only thing the large 
industries can do, is to build barriers with help 
from politicians and with safety concerns as 
excuse. In an energy crises this will not be 
successful, because it assumes that they have more time to move.

Hakan


At 14:44 27/04/2006, you wrote:
I dont know man, but I think they've got a 
point.  sustainable or not, there are many ways 
to slowly shift towrds other fuels until petro dominance fades away.

The world will go on through this process, 
although this doesn't come overnight.  With all 
due respect to your position, it kinda makes sense.

Best regards,
Luis.

Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
The great thing about the dialog we are having 
is that it is (conceivably) a permanent record 
of the times, creating perhaps a smaller task 
for revisionist historians in the future. The 
Neo-Conservatives of today will be compared 
(even more) to the cast of characters in Arthur Miller's The Crucible.

Now all we need is for someone to read it in a 
hundred years (assuming our species is still around).

...gotta go. My alien implant is bugging me again.

Mike

Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

LOL!

US have huge amounts of coal, one third of known world reserves. Now
it is only left to get the Americans to buy diesel vehicles 1% of
current autos, to levels like Europes 50% of current vehicles. So
instead of dependance of foreign oil, US will be dependent of foreign
autos, but it is a large improvement of the situation anyway. Diesel
engines 30% more efficient with smaller autos 50% more efficient and
US will be at the level of Europeans. By the way, where is the
freedom cars? On the streets of Europe! After this, US maybe
even discover biodiesel.

Hakan


At 23:10 25/04/2006, you wrote:
 WE ARE SAVED! WELL EXCEPT FOR THE CARBON THING..
 
 http://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.html
 
 That's sarcasm folks...
 
 Joe
 
 
 
 Mike Weaver wrote:
 
 Redler, you never like my ideas. You've made me cry. Now how do you
 feel? *snif*
 
 Ok I can't leave well enough alone. A good friend who follows peak oil
 pretty closely sent me this. I think it's optimistic at best and pretty
 delusional at worst. How long will it take (and cost) to get all this
 whiz bang stuff going? There's no doubt in my mind the petro economy
 is doomed. Now, if we had any sense we'd wean ourselves NOW, while we
 can, use whatever technology may work to do it and move to the next
 phase. Even in the best case scenario the price of oil is going to
 continue to climb and climb.
 
 They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not about to
 run out of oil. The world WILL NEVER run out of oil. There just WON'T
 BE ENOUGH for everyone to go as we are. I'm sure there will alwasy be a
 trickle ot two...
 
 Weaver
 
 
 
 
 Michael Redler wrote:
 
 
 
 Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists:
 
 They concede to:
 
 The rising costs of oil exploration
 The eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuel
 The fact that for every three barrels used there is only one barrel of
 newly discovered oil to replenish it.
 
 At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniques
 in exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delay
 the peak.
 
 They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not about to
 run out of oil.
 
 What does about mean and when will they have the foresight to see
 the value of doing something sooner rather than later? More
 importantly, who is the World and when are they going to count
 countries (i.e. Iraq) who are slowly losing control of their oil.
 
 What a bunch of crap!
 
 Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.
 
 Mike
 
 
 */Mike Weaver ?xml:namespace prefix = mailto //* wrote:
 
 
 http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506
 

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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Michael Redler

Weave! You smart aleckPUNK (spray/cough)!Where's my cane?!Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Redler is old.Michael Redler wrote: By the way, even though I quoted the lyrics, I didn't think it  came from Zack, I thought it was much older than that (otherwise, I  would have given the source).  Mike */Jason  Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: how old are you mike? not often do i see Rage's lyrics in a conversation. - Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Mike Weaver

Oops - you're younger than me.

Were you a mechanic?  I was, wy back when.

Now you hot rod cars with a computer.  I souped up my TDI with a chip, 
software and an air intake.  Still thinking about injectors...

-M

Michael Redler wrote:


 I'm a 39 year old, first generation head banger and grew up 
 listening to Van Halen, Led Zeppelin, Accept, Ozzy, Hendrix, Crue, 
 Zappa, etc. In high school, I had shoulder length hair and spent my 
 time with lots of garage mechanics who liked to make their cars go 
 fast (I went to a trade school).

 My taste in music has broadened since high school and I get into 
 everything from Beethoven to bag pipes to Slayer. Most important, I 
 listen to the words (when there are words) and I think Zack is a 
 gifted poet.
  
 I've quoted him once before (alongside Lincoln):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg60453.html
  
 Some of the most powerful lyrics I've ever heard comes from his song 
 Born of a Broken Man
  
 His thoughts like a hundred moths
 Trapped in a lampshade
 Somewhere within
 Their wings banging and burning
 On through endless night
 Forever awake he lies shaking and starving
 Praying for someone to turn off the light
  
 I think it's right up there with Joni Mitchell's The Fiddle and the 
 Drum and even some of Dylan's stuff.
  
 ...motivation for fighting propaganda from that rag, The Economist.
  
 Mike
  
  

 */Jason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 how old are you mike?
 not often do i see Rage's lyrics in a conversation.
 - Original Message -
 From: Michael Redler
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:52 PM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about
 running out of
 oil?


 Temporarily?

 There is something about that word that makes me uncomfortable.
 We've been
 in the process of temporary sustainability [paraphrase] for at
 least
 thirty years. There is nothing temporary about it.

 My interpretation of this philosophy is that temporary is simply an
 extension through which the rich will get richer and the date on
 which
 governments decide to get serious is pushed further into the future.

 Temporary means a delay of sustainable fuel development and the
 environmental impact of that delay is not something we can afford.

 If you want to promote sustainability, incrementally replace
 diminishing
 supplies of oil with ethanol and other agriculturally based fuel
 while
 broadening the search for more sustainable energy technologies.
 Instead,
 those potential funds are being used to drill wells and dig mines.

 What better place than here?
 What better time than now?

 Mike


 Paul S Cantrell wrote:
 In addition, if you look at the world coal reserves,
 link here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/coal.html

 The top 5 are:
 1 US
 2 Russia
 3 China
 4 India
 5 Australia

 [snip]



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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Michael Redler

I wasn't a mechanic (although I knew my way around a shop). My father is a pipeline welder and steam fitter and most of my friends are in industry or the building trades. I had a bigger interest in understanding how things worked. So, I decided to go to school and become an engineer. I'm the only person in my family or circle of friends to have gone to college.Re: TDI - I'm told that people are linking palm pilots to their car computers to improve performance.MikeMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oops - you're younger than me.Were you a mechanic? I was, wy back when.Now you hot rod cars with a computer. I souped up my TDI with a chip, software and an air intake. Still thinking about injectors...-MMichael Redler
wrote: I'm a 39 year old, first generation "head banger" and grew up listening to Van Halen, Led Zeppelin, Accept, Ozzy, Hendrix, Crue, Zappa, etc. In high school, I had shoulder length hair and spent my time with lots of garage mechanics who liked to make their cars go fast (I went to a trade school). My taste in music has broadened since high school and I get into everything from Beethoven to bag pipes to Slayer. Most important, I listen to the words (when there are words) and I think Zack is a gifted poet. I've quoted him once before (alongside Lincoln): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg60453.html Some of the most powerful lyrics I've ever heard comes from his song "Born of a Broken Man" His thoughts like a hundred moths Trapped in a lampshade Somewhere
within Their wings banging and burning On through endless night Forever awake he lies shaking and starving Praying for someone to turn off the light I think it's right up there with Joni Mitchell's "The Fiddle and the Drum" and even some of Dylan's stuff. ...motivation for fighting propaganda from that rag, The Economist. Mike___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Keith Addison

Trust us - we're experts!

An engine that Rudolf Diesel showed at the 1900 World Exhibition in 
Paris ran on peanut oil, and biodiesel has been in small-scale use 
here and there since the 1930s. You can make it from animal fats, 
oilseeds, used cooking oil, sugar, grain and more.
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=3960775
Biofuels
Stirrings in the corn fields
May 12th 2005
The Economist

That must be the angle we're all missing - sugardiesel.

Not only that, we get the old Rudolf and the Peanuts fairytale again. 
George Monbiot also did that:

This, in fact, was how Rudolf Diesel expected his invention to be 
used. When he demonstrated his engine at the World Exhibition in 
1900, he ran it on peanut oil. -- Fuel for nought -- The adoption 
of biofuels would be a humanitarian and environmental disaster, 
George Monbiot, Daily Comment, The Guardian, November 23, 2004
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1357370,00.html

But then so did the NBB, Willie Nelson, the Voice of America and just 
about everyone else.

Stephan Helbig checked it out some time ago:

It WASN'T him! I recently borrowed his book The Development of the 
Diesel Engine -afaik the last one he published until he drowned 
himself in the Channel. All kinds of fuels that had been tested are 
described there, from coal dust over weird chemical mixtures that had 
been sent to Diesel by the industry to all sorts of crude oil and 
even tar-oil. Vegoil just got about 4 lines- remarking that it was 
the French Otto-Company (yes the Otto-engine!) that ran Diesel's 
engine on peanut oil: The engine was built for crude oil and was 
used without any modification on vegoilit worked so well that 
only a few insiders took notice of this insignificant circumstance. 
(Diesel, Rudolf. 1913. Die Entstehung des Dieselmotors 1st reprint 
by Braun, Hans-Joachim (Ed). 1984. Moers: Steiger. Page 115.).

Best

Keith


 Michael Redler wrote:
 
 
 
 Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists:
 
 They concede to:
 
 The rising costs of oil exploration
 The eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuel
 The fact that for every three barrels used there is only one barrel of
 newly discovered oil to replenish it.
 
 At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniques
 in exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delay
 the peak.
 
 They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not about to
 run out of oil.
 
 What does about mean and when will they have the foresight to see
 the value of doing something sooner rather than later? More
 importantly, who is the World and when are they going to count
 countries (i.e. Iraq) who are slowly losing control of their oil.
 
 What a bunch of crap!
 
 Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.
 
 Mike
 
 
 */Mike Weaver /* wrote:
 
 
 http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506
 


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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Luis Eduardo Puerto

Yeah, I agree with you. Although in my country Colombia, there is a blooming industry of ethanol, with participation of obviously the sugar industry behind on one side, and the biodiesel industry on the other that is also staring to emerge. Today at the pump you get ethanol mixed with gasoline, while it will be until 2008 that biodiesel in a 5% blend initially will be found at the diesel pump. Lot of palm oil producers (and croppers) want to develop this, and things are very advanced. I would like to be a part of it, the thing is that they are into building 3 very large plants to run economies of scale which leaves mid and small sized producers out of the game, you know?Iam young (24) butI am very aware of the great shift we are living, and I am looking forward into every possible opportunity of energy that can be developed. From wind turbines in Scotland,
solar panels in China, ethanol in Brazil, etc.Itwould be nice to be a part of it, leaving Big Oil in a tight situation. the thing is, they have so much cash today(Exxon made 36 billion USD in net profits last year), that they should be able to get into all this new areas - specifically the ones thatrelate to fossil fuels. Best regards, Luis. Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: Luis,It is only around a year ago, that we established that biofuels would be competitive with an oil price of $35 to $40 a barrel, especially biodiesel. At the current levels over $70 a barrel, biofuels are cheaper than oil. Everybody expect that it will stay on this level and even go higher.The elements are
there, for a very rapid growth in making biofuels and with current competitive advantage it will not go slowly. The question is not fuel dominance, but industry dominance. I hope that we will see a far more diversified energy industry as a result of the situation, now that the startup barrier has been lowered so much. A more diversified industry, with small to mid size producers, will have the opportunity to move very fast and the large traditional oil companies can not. The only thing the large industries can do, is to build barriers with help from politicians and with safety concerns as excuse. In an energy crises this will not be successful, because it assumes that they have more time to move.HakanAt 14:44 27/04/2006, you wrote:I dont know man, but I think they've got a point. sustainable or not, there are many ways to slowly shift towrds other fuels until petro dominance
fades away.The world will go on through this process, although this doesn't come overnight. With all due respect to your position, it kinda makes sense.Best regards,Luis.Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>escribió:The great thing about the dialog we are having is that it is (conceivably) a permanent record of the times, creating perhaps a smaller task for revisionist historians in the future. The Neo-Conservatives of today will be compared (even more) to the cast of characters in Arthur Miller's "The Crucible".Now all we need is for someone to read it in a hundred years (assuming our species is still around)gotta go. My alien implant is bugging me again.MikeHakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:LOL!US have huge amounts of coal, one third of
known world reserves. Nowit is only left to get the Americans to buy diesel vehicles 1% ofcurrent autos, to levels like Europes 50% of current vehicles. Soinstead of dependance of foreign oil, US will be dependent of foreignautos, but it is a large improvement of the situation anyway. Dieselengines 30% more efficient with smaller autos 50% more efficient andUS will be at the level of Europeans. By the way, where is the"freedom cars"? On the streets of Europe! After this, US maybeeven discover biodiesel.HakanAt 23:10 25/04/2006, you wrote: WE ARE SAVED! WELL EXCEPT FOR THE CARBON THING.. http://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.html That's sarcasm folks... JoeMike Weaver wrote:
Redler, you never like my ideas. You've made me cry. Now how do you feel? *snif* Ok I can't leave well enough alone. A good friend who follows peak oil pretty closely sent me this. I think it's optimistic at best and pretty delusional at worst. How long will it take (and cost) to get all this whiz bang stuff going? There's no doubt in my mind the petro economy is doomed. Now, if we had any sense we'd wean ourselves NOW, while we can, use whatever technology may work to do it and move to the next phase. Even in the best case scenario the price of oil is going to continue to climb and climb. They also make the sweeping statement that "the World is not about to run out of oil". The world WILL NEVER run out of oil. There just WON'T BE ENOUGH for
everyone to go as we are. I'm sure there will alwasy be a trickle ot two... Weaver Michael Redler wrote:Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists: They concede to: The rising costs of oil exploration The eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuel The

Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Keith Addison

Yeah, I agree with you.  Although in my country Colombia, there is a blooming industry of ethanol, with participation of obviously the sugar industry behind on one side, and the biodiesel industry on the other that is also staring to emerge.  Today at the pump you get ethanol mixed with gasoline, while it will be until 2008 that biodiesel in a 5% blend initially will be found at the diesel pump. 

Lot of palm oil producers (and croppers) want to develop this, and things are very advanced.  I would like to be a part of it, the thing is that they are into building 3 very large plants to run economies of scale which leaves mid and small sized producers out of the game, you know?

I am young (24) but I am very aware of the great shift we are living, and I am looking forward into every possible opportunity of energy that can be developed.From wind turbines in Scotland, solar panels in China, ethanol in Brazil, etc.  Itwould be nice to be a part of it, leaving Big Oil in a tight situation.  the thing is, they have so much cash today (Exxon made 36 billion USD in net profits last year), that they should be able to get into all this new areas - specifically the ones that relate to fossil fuels.   

They're the wrong shape for the future. These days a lot of people are acknowledging the need for decentralised, distributed energy production, whether of power or fuel, not just us. Even the US army's saying so. 

... the military needs to take major steps to increase energy efficiency, make a massive expansion in renewable energy purchases, and move toward a vast increase in renewable distributed generation, including photovoltaic, solar thermal, microturbines, and biomass energy sources. - U.S. Army Corps of Engineers

Oil shortage threatens military - USNews.com: Nation  World http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/060315/15natsec.htm

Energy Trends - U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (PDF)
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/graphics/ace060315.pdf

Cheer up Luis, the future belongs to you, not ExxonMobil, even if they have megabillions and you don't. 

http://www.ExxposeExxon.com/
Exxpose Exxon | Home

You might enjoy reading this::

How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch

Best regards,
Luis.

Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:

Luis,

It is only around a year ago, that we established
that biofuels would be competitive with an oil
price of $35 to $40 a barrel, especially
biodiesel. At the current levels over $70 a
barrel, biofuels are cheaper than oil. Everybody
expect that it will stay on this level and even go higher.

The elements are there, for a very rapid growth
in making biofuels and with current competitive
advantage it will not go slowly. The question is
not fuel dominance, but industry dominance. I
hope that we will see a far more diversified
energy industry as a result of the situation, now
that the startup barrier has been lowered so
much. A more diversified industry, with small to
mid size producers, will have the opportunity to
move very fast and the large traditional oil
companies can not. The only thing the large
industries can do, is to build barriers with help
from politicians and with safety concerns as
excuse. In an energy crises this will not be
successful, because it assumes that they have more time to move.

Hakan

At 14:44 27/04/2006, you wrote:
>I dont know man, but I think they've got a
>point. sustainable or not, there are many ways
>to slowly shift towrds other fuels until petro dominance fades away.
>
>The world will go on through this process,
>although this doesn't come overnight. With all
>due respect to your position, it kinda makes sense.
>
>Best regards,
>Luis.
>
>Michael Redler escribió:
>The great thing about the dialog we are having
>is that it is (conceivably) a permanent record
>of the times, creating perhaps a smaller task
>for revisionist historians in the future. The
>Neo-Conservatives of today will be compared
>(even more) to the cast of characters in Arthur Miller's The Crucible.
>
>Now all we need is for someone to read it in a
>hundred years (assuming our species is still around).
>
>...gotta go. My alien implant is bugging me again.
>
>Mike
>
>Hakan Falk wrote:
>
>LOL!
>
>US have huge amounts of coal, one third of known world reserves. Now
>it is only left to get the Americans to buy diesel vehicles 1% of
>current autos, to levels like Europes 50% of current vehicles. So
>instead of dependance of foreign oil, US will be dependent of foreign
>autos, but it is a large improvement of the situation anyway. Diesel
>engines 30% more efficient with smaller autos 50% more efficient and
>US will be at the level of Europeans. By the way, where is the
>freedom cars? On the streets of Europe! After this, US maybe
>even discover biodiesel.
>
>Hakan
>
>
>At 23:10 25/04/2006, you wrote:
> >WE ARE SAVED! WELL EXCEPT FOR THE CARBON THING..
> >
>

Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Mike Weaver

Watch it, Sonny, I'm five years older than you.  Show some respect!

Michael Redler wrote:

 Weave! You smart aleck PUNK (spray/cough)!
  
 Where's my cane?!

 */Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 Redler is old.

 Michael Redler wrote:

  By the way, even though I quoted the lyrics, I didn't think it
  came from Zack, I thought it was much older than that (otherwise, I
  would have given the source).
 
  Mike
 
  */Jason  Katie /* wrote:
 
  how old are you mike?
  not often do i see Rage's lyrics in a conversation.
  - Original Message -
  From: Michael Redler
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:52 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about
  running out of
  [snip]



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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Jason Katie

thats not fair, i listen to most of what he listed and probably most of what 
he didnt, and im 22, so, bleh ;P

- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of 
oil?


 Redler is old.

 Michael Redler wrote:

 By the way, even though I quoted the lyrics, I didn't think it
 came from Zack, I thought it was much older than that (otherwise, I
 would have given the source).

 Mike

 */Jason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 how old are you mike?
 not often do i see Rage's lyrics in a conversation.
 - Original Message -
 From: Michael Redler
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:52 PM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about
 running out of
 [snip]



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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Jason Katie

aha, but you see, the USD isnt worth the rag they print it on, so even if it 
sounds like a lot, its only an ego trip, and when the bubble pops the olio 
companies are gonna be in a world of hurtin', because WE'LL hold all the 
cards, and they wont be able to liquidate fast enough. quite frankly i dont 
feel any sympathy, empathy, or pity for them because they dug their own 
hole.

- Original Message - 
From: Luis Eduardo Puerto
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of 
oil?

Yeah, I agree with you.  Although in my country Colombia, there is a 
blooming industry of ethanol, with participation of obviously the sugar 
industry behind on one side, and the biodiesel industry on the other that is 
also staring to emerge.  Today at the pump you get ethanol mixed with 
gasoline, while it will be until 2008 that biodiesel in a 5% blend initially 
will be found at the diesel pump.

Lot of palm oil producers (and croppers) want to develop this, and things 
are very advanced.  I would like to be a part of it, the thing is that they 
are into building 3 very large plants to run economies of scale which leaves 
mid and small sized producers out of the game, you know?

I am young (24) but I am very aware of the great shift we are living, and I 
am looking forward into every possible opportunity of energy that can be 
developed.From wind turbines in Scotland, solar panels in China, ethanol 
in Brazil, etc.  Itwould be nice to be a part of it, leaving Big Oil in a 
tight situation.  the thing is, they have so much cash today (Exxon made 36 
billion USD in net profits last year), that they should be able to get into 
all this new areas - specifically the ones that relate to fossil fuels.

Best regards,
Luis.

Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:

Luis,

It is only around a year ago, that we established
that biofuels would be competitive with an oil
price of $35 to $40 a barrel, especially
biodiesel. At the current levels over $70 a
barrel, biofuels are cheaper than oil. Everybody
expect that it will stay on this level and even go higher.

The elements are there, for a very rapid growth
in making biofuels and with current competitive
advantage it will not go slowly. The question is
not fuel dominance, but industry dominance. I
hope that we will see a far more diversified
energy industry as a result of the situation, now
that the startup barrier has been lowered so
much. A more diversified industry, with small to
mid size producers, will have the opportunity to
move very fast and the large traditional oil
companies can not. The only thing the large
industries can do, is to build barriers with help
from politicians and with safety concerns as
excuse. In an energy crises this will not be
successful, because it assumes that they have more time to move.

Hakan

At 14:44 27/04/2006, you wrote:
I dont know man, but I think they've got a
point. sustainable or not, there are many ways
to slowly shift towrds other fuels until petro dominance fades away.

The world will go on through this process,
although this doesn't come overnight. With all
due respect to your position, it kinda makes sense.

Best regards,
Luis.

Michael Redler escribió:
The great thing about the dialog we are having
is that it is (conceivably) a permanent record
of the times, creating perhaps a smaller task
for revisionist historians in the future. The
Neo-Conservatives of today will be compared
(even more) to the cast of characters in Arthur Miller's The Crucible.

Now all we need is for someone to read it in a
hundred years (assuming our species is still around).

...gotta go. My alien implant is bugging me again.

Mike

Hakan Falk wrote:

LOL!

US have huge amounts of coal, one third of known world reserves. Now
it is only left to get the Americans to buy diesel vehicles 1% of
current autos, to levels like Europes 50% of current vehicles. So
instead of dependance of foreign oil, US will be dependent of foreign
autos, but it is a large improvement of the situation anyway. Diesel
engines 30% more efficient with smaller autos 50% more efficient and
US will be at the level of Europeans. By the way, where is the
freedom cars? On the streets of Europe! After this, US maybe
even discover biodiesel.

Hakan

At 23:10 25/04/2006, you wrote:
 WE ARE SAVED! WELL EXCEPT FOR THE CARBON THING..

 http://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.html

 That's sarcasm folks...

 Joe

 Mike Weaver wrote:

 Redler, you never like my ideas. You've made me cry. Now how do you
 feel? *snif*

 Ok I can't leave well enough alone. A good friend who follows peak oil
 pretty closely sent me this. I think it's optimistic at best and pretty
 delusional at worst. How long will it take (and cost) to get all this
 whiz bang stuff going? There's no doubt in my mind the petro economy
 is doomed. Now, if we had any sense we'd wean

Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Mike Weaver

Oh yeah, well I'm exactly twice as old as you are so that makes me, uh, old?
Not to mention forgetful...

Jason  Katie wrote:

thats not fair, i listen to most of what he listed and probably most of what 
he didnt, and im 22, so, bleh ;P

- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of 
oil?


  

Redler is old.

Michael Redler wrote:



By the way, even though I quoted the lyrics, I didn't think it
came from Zack, I thought it was much older than that (otherwise, I
would have given the source).

Mike

*/Jason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

how old are you mike?
not often do i see Rage's lyrics in a conversation.
- Original Message -
From: Michael Redler
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about
running out of
[snip]



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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Michael Redler

That's a lot of information to put in one's head in such a short time.Neo! Is that you?:-)  Jason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  thats not fair, i listen to most of what he listed and probably most of what he didnt, and im 22, so, bleh ;P- Original Message - From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:17 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil? Redler is old. Michael Redler wrote: By the way, even though I quoted the lyrics, I didn't think it came from Zack, I thought it was much older than that (otherwise,
 I would have given the source). Mike[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-27 Thread Mike Weaver

That's why I keep my head empty...

Michael Redler wrote:

 That's a lot of information to put in one's head in such a short time.
  
 Neo! Is that you?
  
 :-)
  
  
 */Jason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 thats not fair, i listen to most of what he listed and probably
 most of what
 he didnt, and im 22, so, bleh ;P

 - Original Message -
 From: Mike Weaver
 To:
 Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:17 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about
 running out of
 oil?


  Redler is old.
 
  Michael Redler wrote:
 
  By the way, even though I quoted the lyrics, I didn't think it
  came from Zack, I thought it was much older than that (otherwise, I
  would have given the source).
 
  Mike
 
 [snip]



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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-26 Thread bob allen

like it or not, that is the most likely pathway to temporarily sustain
the unsustainable. The governor of Montana is currently touting coal
liquification (and throwing in clean coal buzz words all the while),
ethanol plants utilize coal for process, thereby indirectly converting
coal to liquids.

the environment be damned, full speed ahead.

Jason Katie wrote:
i'd be happy to buy a diesel, but no way in hell will it run on coal-base.

- Original Message -
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of
oil?

We used to buy diesel cars in the US, but they were never too popular.

Hakan Falk wrote:

LOL!

US have huge amounts of coal, one third of known world reserves. Now
it is only left to get the Americans to buy diesel vehicles 1% of
current autos, to levels like Europes 50% of current vehicles. So
instead of dependance of foreign oil, US will be dependent of foreign
autos, but it is a large improvement of the situation anyway. Diesel
engines 30% more efficient with smaller autos 50% more efficient and
US will be at the level of Europeans. By the way, where is the
freedom cars? On the streets of Europe! After this, US maybe
even discover biodiesel.

Hakan

At 23:10 25/04/2006, you wrote:

WE ARE SAVED! WELL EXCEPT FOR THE CARBON THING..

http://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.htmlhttp://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.html

That's sarcasm folks...

Joe

Mike Weaver wrote:

Redler, you never like my ideas. You've made me cry. Now how do you
feel? *snif*

Ok I can't leave well enough alone. A good friend who follows peak oil
pretty closely sent me this. I think it's optimistic at best and pretty
delusional at worst. How long will it take (and cost) to get all this
whiz bang stuff going? There's no doubt in my mind the petro economy
is doomed. Now, if we had any sense we'd wean ourselves NOW, while we
can, use whatever technology may work to do it and move to the next
phase. Even in the best case scenario the price of oil is going to
continue to climb and climb.

They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not about to
run out of oil. The world WILL NEVER run out of oil. There just WON'T
BE ENOUGH for everyone to go as we are. I'm sure there will alwasy be a
trickle ot two...

Weaver

Michael Redler wrote:

Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists:

They concede to:

The rising costs of oil exploration
The eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuel
The fact that for every three barrels used there is only one barrel of
newly discovered oil to replenish it.

At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniques
in exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delay
the peak.

They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not about to
run out of oil.

What does about mean and when will they have the foresight to see
the value of doing something sooner rather than later? More
importantly, who is the World and when are they going to count
countries (i.e. Iraq) who are slowly losing control of their oil.

What a bunch of crap!

Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.

Mike

*/Mike Weaver mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/*
wrote:

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506

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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-26 Thread Paul S Cantrell

In addition, if you look at the world coal reserves,
link here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/coal.html

The top 5 are:
1 US
2 Russia
3 China
4 India
5 Australia

On 4/26/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
like it or not, that is the most likely pathway to temporarily sustain
the unsustainable. The governor of Montana is currently touting coal
liquification (and throwing in clean coal buzz words all the while),
ethanol plants utilize coal for process, thereby indirectly converting
coal to liquids.

I agree, Bob. The countries consuming the most are the ones that
would benefit the most from CTL technologies.

the environment be damned, full speed ahead.

Jason Katie wrote:
i'd be happy to buy a diesel, but no way in hell will it run on coal-base.

We used to buy diesel cars in the US, but they were never too popular.

Hakan Falk wrote:

LOL!

Hakan

At 23:10 25/04/2006, you wrote:

WE ARE SAVED! WELL EXCEPT FOR THE CARBON THING..

http://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.htmlhttp://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.html

That's sarcasm folks...

Joe

Mike Weaver wrote:

Redler, you never like my ideas. You've made me cry. Now how do you
feel? *snif*

Weaver

Michael Redler wrote:

Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists:

They concede to:

At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniques
in exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delay
the peak.

They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not about to
run out of oil.

What a bunch of crap!

Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.

Mike

*/Mike Weaver mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/*
wrote:

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506

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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-26 Thread Mike Weaver

Promise?

Michael Redler wrote:

 Oh...dude...I didn't mean it.
  
 Really, it's gonna be OK.
  
 I'm sorry - really, really sorry.
  
 Redler

 */Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 Redler, you never like my ideas. You've made me cry. Now how do you
 feel? *snif*

 Ok I can't leave well enough alone. A good friend who follows peak
 oil
 pretty closely sent me this. I think it's optimistic at best and
 pretty
 delusional at worst. How long will it take (and cost) to get all this
 whiz bang stuff going? There's no doubt in my mind the petro economy
 is doomed. Now, if we had any sense we'd wean ourselves NOW, while we
 can, use whatever technology may work to do it and move to the next
 phase. Even in the best case scenario the price of oil is going to
 continue to climb and climb.

 They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not about to
 run out of oil. The world WILL NEVER run out of oil. There just
 WON'T
 BE ENOUGH for everyone to go as we are. I'm sure there will alwasy
 be a
 trickle ot two...

 Weaver




 Michael Redler wrote:

  Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists:
 
  They concede to:
 
  The rising costs of oil exploration
  The eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuel
  The fact that for every three barrels used there is only one
 barrel of
  newly discovered oil to replenish it.
 
  At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and
 techniques
  in exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to
 delay
  the peak.
 
  They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not
 about to
  run out of oil.
 
  What does about mean and when will they have the foresight to see
  the value of doing something sooner rather than later? More
  importantly, who is the World and when are they going to count
  countries (i.e. Iraq) who are slowly losing control of their oil.
 
  What a bunch of crap!
 
  Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.
 
  Mike
 
 
  */Mike Weaver /* wrote:
 
  http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506
 



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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-26 Thread Keith Addison

like it or not, that is the most likely pathway to temporarily sustain
the unsustainable.  The governor of Montana is currently touting coal
liquification (and throwing in clean coal buzz words all the while),
ethanol plants utilize coal for process, thereby indirectly converting
coal to liquids.

the environment be damned, full speed ahead.

We've been saying that for a long time, there's more than 200 years' 
worth of coal in the US. Australia probably thinks that way too. A 
list member told this story a few years ago:

One of our oldest scientists, now 84 yrs. old, was responsible for 
going into Germany post WWII and uncovering the remains of Hitler's 
synthetic fuels machine which had been bombed out. I'm speaking of 
Fischer-Tropsch oily-based paraffins which are hydrocracked down into 
shorter chains for synthetic gasoline, jet fuel and diesel. He 
brought back some of the original German scientists who'd perfected 
this technology which utilized coarse, low-grade brown German coal as 
feedstock. Three times he tried to start-up an American version of 
synthetic hydrocarbon fuels in the GTL arena and was blocked. As the 
highest ranking American energy technologist post WWII, he couldn't 
figure this out. It was over 20 years later that he realized that the 
late John Rockefeller of Standard Oil [Exxon] had been the politic 
behind the scenes, making sure that his new, alternative fuel ideas 
did not materialize. This scientist then took his blueprints for the 
first major GTL project and gave them to Sasol who built his first 
coal gasification device back in 1953 and it is still operating 
today. Sasol from South Africa is the oldest synthetic fuels producer 
globally.

Best

Keith


Jason  Katie wrote:
  i'd be happy to buy a diesel, but no way in hell will it run on coal-base.
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 6:20 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of
  oil?
 
 
  We used to buy diesel cars in the US, but they were never too popular.
 
  Hakan Falk wrote:
 
  LOL!
 
  US have huge amounts of coal, one third of known world reserves. Now
  it is only left to get the Americans to buy diesel vehicles 1% of
  current autos, to levels like Europes 50% of current vehicles. So
  instead of dependance of foreign oil, US will be dependent of foreign
  autos, but it is a large improvement of the situation anyway. Diesel
  engines 30% more efficient with smaller autos 50% more efficient and
  US will be at the level of Europeans. By the way, where is the
  freedom cars? On the streets of Europe! After this, US maybe
  even discover biodiesel.
 
  Hakan
 
 
  At 23:10 25/04/2006, you wrote:
 
 
  WE ARE SAVED!  WELL EXCEPT FOR THE CARBON THING..
 
  
http://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.htmlhttp:// 
www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.html
 
  That's sarcasm folks...
 
  Joe
 
 
 
  Mike Weaver wrote:
 
 
  Redler, you never like my ideas.  You've made me cry.  Now how do you
  feel?  *snif*
 
  Ok I can't leave well enough alone.  A good friend who follows peak oil
  pretty closely sent me this.  I think it's optimistic at best 
and pretty
  delusional at worst.  How long will it take (and cost) to get all this
  whiz bang stuff going?   There's no doubt in my mind the petro economy
  is doomed.  Now, if we had any sense we'd wean ourselves NOW, while we
  can, use whatever technology may work to do it and move to the next
  phase.  Even in the best case scenario the price of oil is going to
  continue to climb and climb.
 
  They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not about to
  run out of oil.  The world WILL NEVER run out of oil.  There 
just WON'T
  BE ENOUGH for everyone to go as we are.  I'm sure there will 
alwasy be a
  trickle ot two...
 
  Weaver
 
 
 
 
  Michael Redler wrote:
 
 
 
 
  Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists:
 
  They concede to:
 
  The rising costs of oil exploration
  The eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuel
  The fact that for every three barrels used there is only one barrel of
  newly discovered oil to replenish it.
 
  At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniques
  in exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delay
  the peak.
 
  They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not about to
  run out of oil.
 
  What does about mean and when will they have the foresight to see
  the value of doing something sooner rather than later? More
  importantly, who is the World and when are they going to count
  countries (i.e. Iraq) who are slowly losing control of their oil.
 
  What a bunch of crap!
 
  Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.
 
  Mike
 
 
  */Mike Weaver mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/*
  wrote:

Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-26 Thread Michael Redler

Temporarily?There is something about that word that makes me uncomfortable. We've been in the process of"temporary sustainability" [paraphrase] for at least thirty years. There is nothing temporary about it.My interpretation of this philosophy is that "temporary" is simply an extension through which the rich will get richer and the date on whichgovernments decide to get serious is pushed further into the future.Temporary means a delay of sustainable fuel development and the environmental impact of that delay is not something we can afford.If you want to promote sustainability, incrementally replace diminishing supplies of oil with ethanol and other agriculturally based fuel while broadening the search for more sustainable energy technologies. Instead, those potential funds are being used to drill wells and dig mines. 
   What better place than here?  What better time than now?MikePaul S Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  In addition, if you look at the world coal reserves,link here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/coal.htmlThe top 5 are:1 US2 Russia3 China4 India5 AustraliaOn 4/26/06, bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: like it or not, that is the most likely pathway to temporarily sustain the unsustainable. The governor of Montana is currently touting coal liquification (and throwing in "clean coal" buzz words all the while), ethanol plants utilize coal for process, thereby indirectly converting coal to liquids.I agree, Bob. The countries consuming the most are the ones
 thatwould benefit the most from CTL technologies. the environment be damned, full speed ahead. Jason  Katie wrote:  i'd be happy to buy a diesel, but no way in hell will it run on coal-base. [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-26 Thread Jason Katie

how old are you mike?
not often do i see Rage's lyrics in a conversation.
- Original Message - 
From: Michael Redler
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of 
oil?

Temporarily?

There is something about that word that makes me uncomfortable. We've been 
in the process of temporary sustainability [paraphrase] for at least 
thirty years. There is nothing temporary about it.

My interpretation of this philosophy is that temporary is simply an 
extension through which the rich will get richer and the date on which 
governments decide to get serious is pushed further into the future.

Temporary means a delay of sustainable fuel development and the 
environmental impact of that delay is not something we can afford.

If you want to promote sustainability, incrementally replace diminishing 
supplies of oil with ethanol and other agriculturally based fuel while 
broadening the search for more sustainable energy technologies. Instead, 
those potential funds are being used to drill wells and dig mines.

What better place than here?
What better time than now?

Mike

Paul S Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In addition, if you look at the world coal reserves,
link here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/coal.html

The top 5 are:
1 US
2 Russia
3 China
4 India
5 Australia

On 4/26/06, bob allen wrote:
 like it or not, that is the most likely pathway to temporarily sustain
 the unsustainable. The governor of Montana is currently touting coal
 liquification (and throwing in clean coal buzz words all the while),
 ethanol plants utilize coal for process, thereby indirectly converting
 coal to liquids.

I agree, Bob. The countries consuming the most are the ones that
would benefit the most from CTL technologies.

 the environment be damned, full speed ahead.

 Jason  Katie wrote:
  i'd be happy to buy a diesel, but no way in hell will it run on 
  coal-base.

[snip]

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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-26 Thread Michael Redler

I'm a 39 year old, first generation "head banger" and grew up listening to Van Halen, Led Zeppelin, Accept, Ozzy, Hendrix, Crue, Zappa, etc. In high school, I had shoulder length hair and spent my time with lots of garage mechanics who liked to make their cars go fast (I went to a trade school).My taste in music has broadened since high school and I get into everything from Beethoven to bag pipes to Slayer. Most important, I listen to the words (when there are words) and I think Zack is a gifted poet.I've quoted him once before (alongside Lincoln):  http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg60453.htmlSome of the most powerful lyrics I've ever heard comes from his song "Born of a Broken Man"His thoughts like a hundred mothsTrapped in a
 lampshadeSomewhere withinTheir wings banging and burningOn through endless nightForever awake he lies shaking and starvingPraying for someone to turn off the lightI think it's right up there with Joni Mitchell's "The Fiddle and the Drum" and even some of Dylan's stuff....motivation for fighting propaganda from that rag, The Economist.Mike  Jason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  how old are you mike?not often do i see Rage's lyrics in a conversation.- Original Message - From: Michael RedlerTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:52 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of
 oil?Temporarily?There is something about that word that makes me uncomfortable. We've been in the process of "temporary sustainability" [paraphrase] for at least thirty years. There is nothing temporary about it.My interpretation of this philosophy is that "temporary" is simply an extension through which the rich will get richer and the date on which governments decide to get serious is pushed further into the future.Temporary means a delay of sustainable fuel development and the environmental impact of that delay is not something we can afford.If you want to promote sustainability, incrementally replace diminishing supplies of oil with ethanol and other agriculturally based fuel while broadening the search for more sustainable energy technologies. Instead, those potential funds are being used to drill wells and dig mines.What better place than here?What better time than
 now?MikePaul S Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:In addition, if you look at the world coal reserves,link here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/coal.htmlThe top 5 are:1 US2 Russia3 China4 India5 Australia[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-26 Thread Michael Redler

By the way, even though I quoted the lyrics, I didn't think it camefrom Zack, I thought it was much older than that (otherwise, I would have given the source).MikeJason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  how old are you mike?not often do i see Rage's lyrics in a conversation.- Original Message - From: Michael RedlerTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:52 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of [snip]___
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[Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-25 Thread Mike Weaver

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506

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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-25 Thread Michael Redler

Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists:They concede to:The rising costs of oil exploration  The eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuel  The fact that for every three barrels used there is only onebarrel of newly discovered oil to replenish it.At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniques in exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delay the peak.They alsomake the sweeping statement that "the World is not about to run out of oil".What does "about" mean and when will they have the foresight to see the value of doing something sooner rather than later? More importantly, who is "the World" and when are they going to count countries (i.e. Iraq) who areslowly losing control of their oil.
What a bunch of crap!Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.Mike  Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-25 Thread Mike Weaver

Redler, you never like my ideas.  You've made me cry.  Now how do you 
feel?  *snif*

Ok I can't leave well enough alone.  A good friend who follows peak oil 
pretty closely sent me this.  I think it's optimistic at best and pretty 
delusional at worst.  How long will it take (and cost) to get all this 
whiz bang stuff going?   There's no doubt in my mind the petro economy 
is doomed.  Now, if we had any sense we'd wean ourselves NOW, while we 
can, use whatever technology may work to do it and move to the next
phase.  Even in the best case scenario the price of oil is going to 
continue to climb and climb.

They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not about to 
run out of oil.  The world WILL NEVER run out of oil.  There just WON'T 
BE ENOUGH for everyone to go as we are.  I'm sure there will alwasy be a 
trickle ot two...

Weaver




Michael Redler wrote:

 Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists:
  
 They concede to:
  
 The rising costs of oil exploration
 The eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuel
 The fact that for every three barrels used there is only one barrel of 
 newly discovered oil to replenish it.
  
 At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniques 
 in exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delay 
 the peak. 
  
 They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not about to 
 run out of oil.
  
 What does about mean and when will they have the foresight to see 
 the value of doing something sooner rather than later? More 
 importantly, who is the World and when are they going to count 
 countries (i.e. Iraq) who are slowly losing control of their oil.
  
 What a bunch of crap!
  
 Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.
  
 Mike


 */Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506



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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-25 Thread David Miller





Mike Weaver wrote:

  Redler, you never like my ideas.  You've made me cry.  Now how do you 
feel?  *snif*

Ok I can't leave well enough alone.  A good friend who follows peak oil 
pretty closely sent me this.  I think it's optimistic at best and pretty 
delusional at worst.  


I found it to be very revealing. Keep in mind that "The Economist" is
about as conservative as they come.

For decades now BigOil(tm) has been telling us that there's no global
warming, no shortage of oil, no peak oil event to be concerned about.
Reserves were essentially endless and we could all drive our SUV's
without a worry.

While their conclusions were kind of suspect (Don't worry! Be Happy!)
the number of points they conceded was a shocker to me. Things like
these:

It is true that the big firms are struggling to replace reserves
...

And as the great fields of the North Sea and Alaska mature, non-OPEC oil production will probably peak by 2010 or
2015 ..


[Note: Do they have ANY idea at all what peak oil OUTSIDE OPEC will
mean to the industrial world?]
After Ghawar..
Further, just because there are no more Ghawars does not mean an end
to
discovery altogether. Using ever fancier technologies, the oil business
is drilling in deeper waters, more difficult terrain and even in the
Arctic (which, as global warming melts the polar ice cap,
will
perversely become the next great prize in oil). ..


In recent weeks a scandal has engulfed Kuwait, too. Petroleum
Intelligence Weekly (PIW),
a respected industry newsletter, got hold of government documents
suggesting that Kuwait might have only half of the nearly 100 billion
barrels in oil reserves that it claims (Saudi Arabia claims 260 billion
barrels)...

The other worry of pessimists is that alternatives to oil simply cannot
be brought online fast enough to compensate for oil's imminent decline.
..

The best reason to think so comes from the radical transformation now
taking place among big oil firms. The global oil industry, argues
Chevron, is changing from an exploration business to a manufacturing
business. [] Several big GTL projects are under way in Qatar, where the
North gas field is perhaps
twice the size of even Ghawar when measured in terms of the energy it
contains. Nigeria and others are also pursuing GTL. Since the
world has far more natural gas left than oilmuch of it outside the
Middle Eastmaking fuel in this way would greatly increase the world's
remaining supplies of oil...


For a right-wing paper like them this is practically a wholesale
surrender. They're actually talking about global warming, peak oil,
alternative fuels, finding less oil than we're using, etc etc. It's
progress - the more they start to acknowledge these things the less the
environmentalists/peak-oil people look like nutcases. It's just a
different interpretation of timing.

They'll come 'round in the end, of course. If they're right about
non-OPEC oil peaking in 2010 to 2015 current administrations all around
the world ought to sit up and take notice though - with demand growing
and non-OPEC production declining they're completely in the drivers
seat.

--- David


  How long will it take (and cost) to get all this 
whiz bang stuff going?   There's no doubt in my mind the petro economy 
is doomed.  Now, if we had any sense we'd wean ourselves NOW, while we 
can, use whatever technology may work to do it and move to the next
phase.  Even in the best case scenario the price of oil is going to 
continue to climb and climb.

They also make the sweeping statement that "the World is not about to 
run out of oil".  The world WILL NEVER run out of oil.  There just WON'T 
BE ENOUGH for everyone to go as we are.  I'm sure there will alwasy be a 
trickle ot two...

Weaver




Michael Redler wrote:

  
  
Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists:
 
They concede to:
 
The rising costs of oil exploration
The eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuel
The fact that for every three barrels used there is only one barrel of 
newly discovered oil to replenish it.
 
At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniques 
in exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delay 
the peak. 
 
They also make the sweeping statement that "the World is not about to 
run out of oil".
 
What does "about" mean and when will they have the foresight to see 
the value of doing something sooner rather than later? More 
importantly, who is "the World" and when are they going to count 
countries (i.e. Iraq) who are slowly losing control of their oil.
 
What a bunch of crap!
 
Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.
 
Mike


*/Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506



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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-25 Thread Joe Street





WE ARE SAVED! WELL EXCEPT FOR THE CARBON THING..


http://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.html

That's sarcasm folks...

Joe




Mike Weaver wrote:

  Redler, you never like my ideas.  You've made me cry.  Now how do you 
feel?  *snif*

Ok I can't leave well enough alone.  A good friend who follows peak oil 
pretty closely sent me this.  I think it's optimistic at best and pretty 
delusional at worst.  How long will it take (and cost) to get all this 
whiz bang stuff going?   There's no doubt in my mind the petro economy 
is doomed.  Now, if we had any sense we'd wean ourselves NOW, while we 
can, use whatever technology may work to do it and move to the next
phase.  Even in the best case scenario the price of oil is going to 
continue to climb and climb.

They also make the sweeping statement that "the World is not about to 
run out of oil".  The world WILL NEVER run out of oil.  There just WON'T 
BE ENOUGH for everyone to go as we are.  I'm sure there will alwasy be a 
trickle ot two...

Weaver




Michael Redler wrote:

  
  
Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists:
 
They concede to:
 
The rising costs of oil exploration
The eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuel
The fact that for every three barrels used there is only one barrel of 
newly discovered oil to replenish it.
 
At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniques 
in exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delay 
the peak. 
 
They also make the sweeping statement that "the World is not about to 
run out of oil".
 
What does "about" mean and when will they have the foresight to see 
the value of doing something sooner rather than later? More 
importantly, who is "the World" and when are they going to count 
countries (i.e. Iraq) who are slowly losing control of their oil.
 
What a bunch of crap!
 
Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.
 
Mike


*/Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506



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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-25 Thread Hakan Falk

LOL!

Hakan

At 23:10 25/04/2006, you wrote:
WE ARE SAVED! WELL EXCEPT FOR THE CARBON THING..

http://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.htmlhttp://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.html

That's sarcasm folks...

Joe

Mike Weaver wrote:

Redler, you never like my ideas. You've made me cry. Now how do you
feel? *snif*

Weaver

Michael Redler wrote:

Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists:

They concede to:

At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniques
in exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delay
the peak.

They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not about to
run out of oil.

What a bunch of crap!

Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.

Mike

*/Mike Weaver mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506

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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

2006-04-25 Thread Michael Redler

The great thing about the dialog we are having is that it is (conceivably) a permanent record of the times, creating perhaps a smaller task for revisionist historians in the future. The Neo-Conservatives of today will be compared (even more) to the cast of characters in Arthur Miller's "The Crucible".Now all we need is for someone to read it in a hundred years (assuming our species is still around)....gotta go. My alien implant is bugging me again.MikeHakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: LOL!US have huge amounts of coal, one third of known world reserves. Now it is only left to get the Americans to buy diesel vehicles 1% of current autos, to levels like Europes 50% of current vehicles. So instead of
dependance of foreign oil, US will be dependent of foreign autos, but it is a large improvement of the situation anyway. Diesel engines 30% more efficient with smaller autos 50% more efficient and US will be at the level of Europeans. By the way, where is the "freedom cars"? On the streets of Europe! After this, US maybe even discover biodiesel.HakanAt 23:10 25/04/2006, you wrote:WE ARE SAVED! WELL EXCEPT FOR THE CARBON THING..http://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.htmlThat's sarcasm folks...JoeMike Weaver wrote:Redler, you never like my ideas. You've made me cry. Now how do youfeel? *snif*Ok I can't leave well enough alone. A good friend who follows peak oilpretty closely sent me
this. I think it's optimistic at best and prettydelusional at worst. How long will it take (and cost) to get all thiswhiz bang stuff going? There's no doubt in my mind the petro economyis doomed. Now, if we had any sense we'd wean ourselves NOW, while wecan, use whatever technology may work to do it and move to the nextphase. Even in the best case scenario the price of oil is going tocontinue to climb and climb.They also make the sweeping statement that "the World is not about torun out of oil". The world WILL NEVER run out of oil. There just WON'TBE ENOUGH for everyone to go as we are. I'm sure there will alwasy be atrickle ot two...WeaverMichael Redler wrote:Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless
economists:They concede to:The rising costs of oil explorationThe eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuelThe fact that for every three barrels used there is only one barrel ofnewly discovered oil to replenish it.At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniquesin exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delaythe peak.They also make the sweeping statement that "the World is not about torun out of oil".What does "about" mean and when will they have the foresight to seethe value of doing something sooner rather than later? Moreimportantly, who is "the World" and when are they going to countcountries (i.e. Iraq)
who are slowly losing control of their oil.What a bunch of crap!Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.Mike*/Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506___
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