Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On 2013-07-21 22:06, Yohan Boniface wrote: On 07/21/2013 09:49 PM, Maarten Deen wrote: IMHO at the moment they have become superfluous. There is no way anymore to zoom in or out more than one step at a time by using on-map controls as there was with the old slider. So I'm using the mouse now to zoom in or out. Maybe not everybody knows this: in Leaflet maps, if you press Shift while clicking on +/- buttons, you zoom/unzoom with a factor 3. And so (as we are using Leaflet) it is the case on osm.org. What would be real great if this would work for the mousecontrols too. So that when you use the scrollwheel on the mouse while having shift pressed it zooms in or out with a factor 3. Because as I've said: using the mouse is way faster than having to go over to the +/- buttons. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Hi Michal To come back this thread I'm interested in what you refer to by Gamification. What was Saman referring to in his talk regarding gamification of the OSM UI? I found the video of the presentation but can't find any hint in this direction: http://vimeopro.com/openstreetmapus/state-of-the-map-us-2013/video/68093877 I assume that you are referring to some statistics displayed about users which to me is only a distant aspect of gamification. The background why I'm asking is, that I'm going to talk about Gamification (based on experiences using Kort Game but it's more general view than of OSM) at SOTM in Birmingham. Yours, Stefan 2013/7/24 Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com: On Jul 22, 2013, at 7:21 AM, Simon Poole wrote: Am 21.07.2013 20:18, schrieb Michal Migurski: Supporting official venues for orderly change is what the board should be doing, but is not. I would support the creation and use of a proposal/vote/implementation process for the community, even if the first proposal is just be it resolved that Mapbox accepts responsibility for the visual design of OSM.org. I would find it very very difficult to subject superficial design changes to a popular vote, these are matters of personal taste and work flow and it is very unlikely that we could reach any kind of consensus within a reasonable time frame, wit this thread. What would be nice if we could get to a state where changing the visual appearance of the main site would not be such a heavy weight task (at least not for the devs) and could happen substantially more often than once in a decade. It's a heavyweight task because there's no higher-level process to guide it, other than the one brought by volunteers. No strategy or goals from the foundation that would provide some rationale for a change and no decisions that would delegate someone to follow through on those goals. Bikeshedding is rarely a failure on the part of the bike shedders, more often a failure of strategy and leadership. The workings of our front page are most definitely not a matter of personal taste! Now high level goals and to a certain point functionality is something that, IMHO, is worth discussing with a large group, and we have ongoing discussions that cover exactly such territory. Besides what has been written here, there is a larger one on the German list about the potential gamification of OSM which shows that such a step is not simply a design question and definitely needs more community consensus if it should be seriously considered for implementation. No kidding! Any consensus from the Germans? -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
2013/7/28 Stefan Keller sfkel...@gmail.com OSM UI? I found the video of the presentation but can't find any hint in this direction: http://vimeopro.com/openstreetmapus/state-of-the-map-us-2013/video/68093877 I assume that you are referring to some statistics displayed about users which to me is only a distant aspect of gamification. I think statistics are enough for gamification. You can have lots of badges like Biggest contributor in Belgium - most nodes in Belgium Road admiral of Alabama - most roads in Alabama Power man of Bavaria - biggest contributor of power tags (power=line, power=substation etc.) in Bavaria Forester of Croatia Ski instructor of Switzerland etc.. Then if you have a question about tagging a power station in some region, you could quickly find the power man of the region, and ask them. That way the badge comes with some responsibility and influence in decision making. The bigger the region, the more responsibility. Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I think statistics are enough for gamification. You can have lots of badges like Biggest contributor in Belgium - most nodes in Belgium Road admiral of Alabama - most roads in Alabama Power man of Bavaria - biggest contributor of power tags (power=line, power=substation etc.) in Bavaria Forester of Croatia Ski instructor of Switzerland etc.. Then if you have a question about tagging a power station in some region, you could quickly find the power man of the region, and ask them. That way the badge comes with some responsibility and influence in decision making. The bigger the region, the more responsibility. Games can be... gamed. As a pipsqeak in the power pole mapping influence peddling ring, I could zoom to the top with a few evenings of shifting nodes that did not really need shifting. If the game is important enough to be gamed... it will be gamed. Better to say that my edits are *respected*. I make an edit and someone else says 'thanks, that looks great', or maybe 'could we talk about the inclusion of bird nests on power poles a bit?'. Then you've got a system that has both games and social features. For those who don't want either there can be achievement levels: perhaps certain capabilities, like bulk uploads, could require hitting certain contribution milestones. It works great for stack exchange and other similar sites. -Bryce Note: the badge list above shows a gender-specific skew... trying giving the 'power man' badge to a professional female lawyer. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Hi Bryce and Janko It seems that I have triggered many ideas about Gamification of data capturing in OSM. I have some visions too from the existing Kort Game. But for discussing this, I think, we should fork this thread. I think such highscores don't belong (yet) to the main website os OSM. So what I still like to find out, is, what triggered the opposition to gamification. I can't find Saman mentioning gamification in his presentation (as other reported here) - or did I miss something? Yours, Stefan 2013/7/29 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I think statistics are enough for gamification. You can have lots of badges like Biggest contributor in Belgium - most nodes in Belgium Road admiral of Alabama - most roads in Alabama Power man of Bavaria - biggest contributor of power tags (power=line, power=substation etc.) in Bavaria Forester of Croatia Ski instructor of Switzerland etc.. Then if you have a question about tagging a power station in some region, you could quickly find the power man of the region, and ask them. That way the badge comes with some responsibility and influence in decision making. The bigger the region, the more responsibility. Games can be... gamed. As a pipsqeak in the power pole mapping influence peddling ring, I could zoom to the top with a few evenings of shifting nodes that did not really need shifting. If the game is important enough to be gamed... it will be gamed. Better to say that my edits are respected. I make an edit and someone else says 'thanks, that looks great', or maybe 'could we talk about the inclusion of bird nests on power poles a bit?'. Then you've got a system that has both games and social features. For those who don't want either there can be achievement levels: perhaps certain capabilities, like bulk uploads, could require hitting certain contribution milestones. It works great for stack exchange and other similar sites. -Bryce Note: the badge list above shows a gender-specific skew... trying giving the 'power man' badge to a professional female lawyer. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
There are a lot of ways to approach gamification. I'm not saying whether or not we should, but we probably should avoid blanket statements that all gamification is bad. For example, another route we could take is a more traditional badge model that rewards you for achievements (You made your first edit! Lifeguard badge: you've edited 20 swimming pools!). In addition, rather than global rankings (which would be dominated by power mappers) showing rankings in terms of your connections might be fun. Personally, I'd like a way to more easily scan what my friends are up to on OSM. I can get a feed of their recent changesets, but even that is pretty well hidden. I guess what I'm saying is that we shouldn't panic too much at the word gamification. It covers all manner of sins :) On Jul 28, 2013 6:30 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 11:42 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I think statistics are enough for gamification. You can have lots of badges like Biggest contributor in Belgium - most nodes in Belgium Road admiral of Alabama - most roads in Alabama Power man of Bavaria - biggest contributor of power tags (power=line, power=substation etc.) in Bavaria Forester of Croatia Ski instructor of Switzerland etc.. Then if you have a question about tagging a power station in some region, you could quickly find the power man of the region, and ask them. That way the badge comes with some responsibility and influence in decision making. The bigger the region, the more responsibility. Games can be... gamed. As a pipsqeak in the power pole mapping influence peddling ring, I could zoom to the top with a few evenings of shifting nodes that did not really need shifting. If the game is important enough to be gamed... it will be gamed. Better to say that my edits are *respected*. I make an edit and someone else says 'thanks, that looks great', or maybe 'could we talk about the inclusion of bird nests on power poles a bit?'. Then you've got a system that has both games and social features. For those who don't want either there can be achievement levels: perhaps certain capabilities, like bulk uploads, could require hitting certain contribution milestones. It works great for stack exchange and other similar sites. -Bryce Note: the badge list above shows a gender-specific skew... trying giving the 'power man' badge to a professional female lawyer. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Stefan Keller sfkel...@gmail.com wrote: I think such highscores don't belong (yet) to the main website os OSM. So what I still like to find out, is, what triggered the opposition to gamification. I can't find Saman mentioning gamification in his presentation (as other reported here) - or did I miss something? Saman presentation was well timed. People realize that our current site is outdated and along comes fresh ideas. Saman presented ideas to improve not only the look and feel but also provided us with a process to introduce a new users to OSM. In one of his slides I believe he showed badges which may lead people to think of gamification. Rather than being for or against the idea of gamification, we really need to ask if gamification will increase the number of active mappers. While it may not be something that I like, it may help us incentify mappers. Just like some people find no need for smartphones, others can't live without them. (Bad analogy, but it's all that came to mind!) It is possible that we could have both. Badges and other awards could be part of the user profile that they can turn on or off. I applaud Saman for his efforts. -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On Jul 22, 2013, at 7:21 AM, Simon Poole wrote: Am 21.07.2013 20:18, schrieb Michal Migurski: Supporting official venues for orderly change is what the board should be doing, but is not. I would support the creation and use of a proposal/vote/implementation process for the community, even if the first proposal is just be it resolved that Mapbox accepts responsibility for the visual design of OSM.org. I would find it very very difficult to subject superficial design changes to a popular vote, these are matters of personal taste and work flow and it is very unlikely that we could reach any kind of consensus within a reasonable time frame, wit this thread. What would be nice if we could get to a state where changing the visual appearance of the main site would not be such a heavy weight task (at least not for the devs) and could happen substantially more often than once in a decade. It's a heavyweight task because there's no higher-level process to guide it, other than the one brought by volunteers. No strategy or goals from the foundation that would provide some rationale for a change and no decisions that would delegate someone to follow through on those goals. Bikeshedding is rarely a failure on the part of the bike shedders, more often a failure of strategy and leadership. The workings of our front page are most definitely not a matter of personal taste! Now high level goals and to a certain point functionality is something that, IMHO, is worth discussing with a large group, and we have ongoing discussions that cover exactly such territory. Besides what has been written here, there is a larger one on the German list about the potential gamification of OSM which shows that such a step is not simply a design question and definitely needs more community consensus if it should be seriously considered for implementation. No kidding! Any consensus from the Germans? -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Am 21.07.2013 20:47, schrieb Richard Fairhurst: You only have to follow one mailing list: rails-dev@. As its name says, this list is about development. The discussion in this thread is about requirements. Its a good practice to clearly separate discussion of requirements from their implementation. This includes also communication about the release of an implementation. That's how user/developer relations should work. It is not because we do not have a customer/provider relationship but are an open community that we should throw such proven principles over board and mix all up. Rainer ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On 21/07/13 22:01, Frederik Ramm wrote: PS: If I reply to a message on rails-dev, will it land in the proper github ticket discussion? I tried it once a while ago and found that my comments were not there, and it seemed that some people were reading via rails-dev and got my message while others were reading via github and didn't. Has someone successfully used the write portion of the gateway? It will appear, but please, please don't do it. The problem is that the gateway runs by having an openstreetmap-website user registered on github that has the rails-dev list as their email address, and if you reply to the list message then when it appears on github it is posted as a comment from openstreetmap-website and there is no way to tell who really made it. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Am 21.07.2013 20:18, schrieb Michal Migurski: Supporting official venues for orderly change is what the board should be doing, but is not. I would support the creation and use of a proposal/vote/implementation process for the community, even if the first proposal is just be it resolved that Mapbox accepts responsibility for the visual design of OSM.org. I would find it very very difficult to subject superficial design changes to a popular vote, these are matters of personal taste and work flow and it is very unlikely that we could reach any kind of consensus within a reasonable time frame, wit this thread. What would be nice if we could get to a state where changing the visual appearance of the main site would not be such a heavy weight task (at least not for the devs) and could happen substantially more often than once in a decade. The new icons and map controls are good and I'm getting accustomed to them, but the process by which they made it onto the site worries me. Mostly, it's because Saman opened his SotM-US talk with a blow it all up slide and finished with gamification that I'm uneasy with how we're treating the visual presentation of OSM.org. Gamification is a sad, sorry sideshow and we shouldn't do it; it only became a meme because Zynga made a zillion dollars and look how that turned out. Do we plan to follow through on gamifying the OSM UI as Saman suggested in his talk? I don't know, and I don't want to have to subscribe to Github pull requests to find out. Now high level goals and to a certain point functionality is something that, IMHO, is worth discussing with a large group, and we have ongoing discussions that cover exactly such territory. Besides what has been written here, there is a larger one on the German list about the potential gamification of OSM which shows that such a step is not simply a design question and definitely needs more community consensus if it should be seriously considered for implementation. Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Am 21.07.2013 22:01, schrieb Frederik Ramm: Hi, On 21.07.2013 21:28, Kai Krueger wrote: It begs the question, if this high level design decisions shouldn't live on the design@ list instead of rails-dev or in the git-hub bug tracker. Yes, I can imagine that to some a you only have to follow rails-dev is a very hitchhikers-guidesque response. My impression is this: 1. Lots of people re-iterate the mantra that mailing lists (and talk in particular) are places where you'll only get flak for all your good ideas, and endless bikeshedding, and whatnot. I think that this is not supported by facts. 2. Therefore if you do something you're tempted to ignore the mailing lists, as everyone tells you they're the pits of hell. 3. Therefore, people on the mailing lists - even the majority that is not troublemakers - feel sidelined, and complain. Often even *informing* people in advance could help a lot. I think that the situation would already be much improved if, when something of greater importance pops up on rails-dev or elsewhere, someone informs the talk list about that. For example, in the specific case, once TomH had set up the working branch with the new UI, a quick note should have gone up on talk: look here this new design, being discussed here in case you want to say something. A couple of people might want to say something but the majority will just be pleased to have been told about it. Anyone can do this cross-pollination of the talk list, and maybe we should make it a habit. +1 I'll start with: Hi everyone, there's an idea to provide a new welcome/landing page used to send new users to, or maybe those who come to OSM via one of the sites using OSM maps. It can be viewed here http://welcome.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/welcome and the discussion is here https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/338 Please, use an own thread for announcements, otherwise they are often missed. colliar signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 20/07/2013 12:57, Paul Norman wrote: Rails port pull requests?!?! wtf. : I really think some developers are living in their own world. lol. They do ! If you missed the discussion because you don't watch the non-localized 35 mailing lists, 5 irc channels, 13 forums, 8 foundation working groups reports, all pull requests discussions in github/osm and the videos of the last SOTM, it's really your fault :-) Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On Jul 21, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Pieren wrote: On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 20/07/2013 12:57, Paul Norman wrote: Rails port pull requests?!?! wtf. : I really think some developers are living in their own world. lol. They do ! If you missed the discussion because you don't watch the non-localized 35 mailing lists, 5 irc channels, 13 forums, 8 foundation working groups reports, all pull requests discussions in github/osm and the videos of the last SOTM, it's really your fault :-) Supporting official venues for orderly change is what the board should be doing, but is not. I would support the creation and use of a proposal/vote/implementation process for the community, even if the first proposal is just be it resolved that Mapbox accepts responsibility for the visual design of OSM.org. The new icons and map controls are good and I'm getting accustomed to them, but the process by which they made it onto the site worries me. Mostly, it's because Saman opened his SotM-US talk with a blow it all up slide and finished with gamification that I'm uneasy with how we're treating the visual presentation of OSM.org. Gamification is a sad, sorry sideshow and we shouldn't do it; it only became a meme because Zynga made a zillion dollars and look how that turned out. Do we plan to follow through on gamifying the OSM UI as Saman suggested in his talk? I don't know, and I don't want to have to subscribe to Github pull requests to find out. Let's not lose sight of the fact that OSM.org has mapped the world in a decade. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Hey, Let's also not lose the fact that this thread started with 'Should we remove the +/- buttons' and has visited about 10 topics in 37 emails since then. Maybe it's time to start fresh with a focused thread. Tom On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com wrote: On Jul 21, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Pieren wrote: On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 20/07/2013 12:57, Paul Norman wrote: Rails port pull requests?!?! wtf. : I really think some developers are living in their own world. lol. They do ! If you missed the discussion because you don't watch the non-localized 35 mailing lists, 5 irc channels, 13 forums, 8 foundation working groups reports, all pull requests discussions in github/osm and the videos of the last SOTM, it's really your fault :-) Supporting official venues for orderly change is what the board should be doing, but is not. I would support the creation and use of a proposal/vote/implementation process for the community, even if the first proposal is just be it resolved that Mapbox accepts responsibility for the visual design of OSM.org. The new icons and map controls are good and I'm getting accustomed to them, but the process by which they made it onto the site worries me. Mostly, it's because Saman opened his SotM-US talk with a blow it all up slide and finished with gamification that I'm uneasy with how we're treating the visual presentation of OSM.org. Gamification is a sad, sorry sideshow and we shouldn't do it; it only became a meme because Zynga made a zillion dollars and look how that turned out. Do we plan to follow through on gamifying the OSM UI as Saman suggested in his talk? I don't know, and I don't want to have to subscribe to Github pull requests to find out. Let's not lose sight of the fact that OSM.org has mapped the world in a decade. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Michal Migurski wrote: On Jul 21, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Pieren wrote: If you missed the discussion because you don't watch the non-localized 35 mailing lists [...] I don't know, and I don't want to have to subscribe to Github pull requests to find out. You only have to follow one mailing list: rails-dev@. Just as if you're interested in the development of JOSM you should follow josm-dev@, if you're interested in the development of Potlatch you should follow potlatch-dev@, if you're interested in the development of Merkaartor, OSRM, Nominatim, etc. etc. All site issues on github and site issues on trac are gatewayed to rails-dev, so you won't miss anything. (rails-dev is a daft, uninituitive name and really it should be called site-dev, but history.) Anticipating next message: Pieren will now complain that this public mailing list is a secretive list as he traditionally does re: legal-talk@. :) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Upgraded-map-controls-tp5770491p5770755.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On Jul 21, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Michal Migurski wrote: On Jul 21, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Pieren wrote: If you missed the discussion because you don't watch the non-localized 35 mailing lists [...] I don't know, and I don't want to have to subscribe to Github pull requests to find out. You only have to follow one mailing list: rails-dev@. Just as if you're interested in the development of JOSM you should follow josm-dev@, if you're interested in the development of Potlatch you should follow potlatch-dev@, if you're interested in the development of Merkaartor, OSRM, Nominatim, etc. etc. All site issues on github and site issues on trac are gatewayed to rails-dev, so you won't miss anything. (rails-dev is a daft, uninituitive name and really it should be called site-dev, but history.) Thank you Richard, I am subscribed. I had not realized that the scope of rails-dev was larger than the technical development and maintenance of the Rails port. For me, this explains past flame-outs of the design@ list. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
It begs the question, if this high level design decisions shouldn't live on the design@ list instead of rails-dev or in the git-hub bug tracker. rails-dev can sometimes have a reasonably high volume and most of it is boring technical detail, like e.g. if oauth needs relative or absolute URLs to produce valid signatures. This is something most people don't (and probably shouldn't) care about and won't read rails-dev. So putting high level design discussions that does effect everyone who uses osm.org and where because it is subjective, everyone can have a valid opinion on it, is perhaps a bad idea. After all there is a specific list just for this kind of purpose i.e. design@ Of cause fragmenting mailing-lists further and further is probably a bad idea though as well. Kai Michal Migurski-2 wrote On Jul 21, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Michal Migurski wrote: On Jul 21, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Pieren wrote: If you missed the discussion because you don't watch the non-localized 35 mailing lists [...] I don't know, and I don't want to have to subscribe to Github pull requests to find out. You only have to follow one mailing list: rails-dev@. Just as if you're interested in the development of JOSM you should follow josm-dev@, if you're interested in the development of Potlatch you should follow potlatch-dev@, if you're interested in the development of Merkaartor, OSRM, Nominatim, etc. etc. All site issues on github and site issues on trac are gatewayed to rails-dev, so you won't miss anything. (rails-dev is a daft, uninituitive name and really it should be called site-dev, but history.) Thank you Richard, I am subscribed. I had not realized that the scope of rails-dev was larger than the technical development and maintenance of the Rails port. For me, this explains past flame-outs of the design@ list. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ talk mailing list talk@ http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Upgraded-map-controls-tp5770491p5770758.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On Jul 21, 2013, at 12:28 PM, Kai Krueger wrote: It begs the question, if this high level design decisions shouldn't live on the design@ list instead of rails-dev or in the git-hub bug tracker. rails-dev can sometimes have a reasonably high volume and most of it is boring technical detail, like e.g. if oauth needs relative or absolute URLs to produce valid signatures. This is something most people don't (and probably shouldn't) care about and won't read rails-dev. So putting high level design discussions that does effect everyone who uses osm.org and where because it is subjective, everyone can have a valid opinion on it, is perhaps a bad idea. After all there is a specific list just for this kind of purpose i.e. design@ Of cause fragmenting mailing-lists further and further is probably a bad idea though as well. I do like Richard's thought that rails-dev should be site-dev, if a renaming was accompanied with the merging of the design@ list. We'd come out with a less-fragmented and clearer selection of mailing lists! It makes sense to me that the people making design suggestions and those who implement them participate in the same conversation space, even if the designers need to occasionally skip an OAuth thread or the developers get bored of hearing about hex colors and corner radii. The key though is delegation and recordkeeping. If we should decide that Saman + Mapbox own the visual design of the site for a period of time, we need to be clear that that includes credit, accountability, and a paper trail of deliberations that we can point to when someone asks if we really need plus and minus buttons on the map. -mike. michal migurski- contact info and pgp key: sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On 2013-07-21 20:18, Michal Migurski wrote: The new icons and map controls are good and I'm getting accustomed to them, but the process by which they made it onto the site worries me. IMHO at the moment they have become superfluous. There is no way anymore to zoom in or out more than one step at a time by using on-map controls as there was with the old slider. So I'm using the mouse now to zoom in or out. It's much faster than the +/- buttons. As far as I'm concerned they can be removed. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Hi, On 21.07.2013 21:28, Kai Krueger wrote: It begs the question, if this high level design decisions shouldn't live on the design@ list instead of rails-dev or in the git-hub bug tracker. Yes, I can imagine that to some a you only have to follow rails-dev is a very hitchhikers-guidesque response. My impression is this: 1. Lots of people re-iterate the mantra that mailing lists (and talk in particular) are places where you'll only get flak for all your good ideas, and endless bikeshedding, and whatnot. I think that this is not supported by facts. 2. Therefore if you do something you're tempted to ignore the mailing lists, as everyone tells you they're the pits of hell. 3. Therefore, people on the mailing lists - even the majority that is not troublemakers - feel sidelined, and complain. Often even *informing* people in advance could help a lot. I think that the situation would already be much improved if, when something of greater importance pops up on rails-dev or elsewhere, someone informs the talk list about that. For example, in the specific case, once TomH had set up the working branch with the new UI, a quick note should have gone up on talk: look here this new design, being discussed here in case you want to say something. A couple of people might want to say something but the majority will just be pleased to have been told about it. Anyone can do this cross-pollination of the talk list, and maybe we should make it a habit. I'll start with: Hi everyone, there's an idea to provide a new welcome/landing page used to send new users to, or maybe those who come to OSM via one of the sites using OSM maps. It can be viewed here http://welcome.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/welcome and the discussion is here https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/338 Bye Frederik PS: If I reply to a message on rails-dev, will it land in the proper github ticket discussion? I tried it once a while ago and found that my comments were not there, and it seemed that some people were reading via rails-dev and got my message while others were reading via github and didn't. Has someone successfully used the write portion of the gateway? -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On 07/21/2013 09:49 PM, Maarten Deen wrote: IMHO at the moment they have become superfluous. There is no way anymore to zoom in or out more than one step at a time by using on-map controls as there was with the old slider. So I'm using the mouse now to zoom in or out. Maybe not everybody knows this: in Leaflet maps, if you press Shift while clicking on +/- buttons, you zoom/unzoom with a factor 3. And so (as we are using Leaflet) it is the case on osm.org. Yohan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On 2013-07-21 22:06, Yohan Boniface wrote: On 07/21/2013 09:49 PM, Maarten Deen wrote: IMHO at the moment they have become superfluous. There is no way anymore to zoom in or out more than one step at a time by using on-map controls as there was with the old slider. So I'm using the mouse now to zoom in or out. Maybe not everybody knows this: in Leaflet maps, if you press Shift while clicking on +/- buttons, you zoom/unzoom with a factor 3. And so (as we are using Leaflet) it is the case on osm.org. So it's what Frederik says, but it goes further. Not only does noone get informed, when there are changes noone (except the developers and maybe the happy few that get told) know how to use the new interface. That's the second thing I had to find out by first complaining that it doesn't work. And that's not a good thing. I find it out here. How does someone who only uses the map find out? Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Humm... Just to be clear: I'm not involved in anyway in osm.org redesign. I've given this tip because it seems to me that the topic was about keeping or not the +/- buttons, and imho it's a useful tip for people who, like me, doesn't use a mouse. Yohan On 07/21/2013 10:47 PM, Maarten Deen wrote: On 2013-07-21 22:06, Yohan Boniface wrote: On 07/21/2013 09:49 PM, Maarten Deen wrote: IMHO at the moment they have become superfluous. There is no way anymore to zoom in or out more than one step at a time by using on-map controls as there was with the old slider. So I'm using the mouse now to zoom in or out. Maybe not everybody knows this: in Leaflet maps, if you press Shift while clicking on +/- buttons, you zoom/unzoom with a factor 3. And so (as we are using Leaflet) it is the case on osm.org. So it's what Frederik says, but it goes further. Not only does noone get informed, when there are changes noone (except the developers and maybe the happy few that get told) know how to use the new interface. That's the second thing I had to find out by first complaining that it doesn't work. And that's not a good thing. I find it out here. How does someone who only uses the map find out? Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work for me. :( -James ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 15:16:10 James Mast wrote: I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work for me. :( -James I miss the zoom slider, and I also agree that permalink should remain on top, accessible with one click. Also, my proposal for including a markerlink has not been taken up. I also didn't see any consultation on this topic. Just another fait accompli. And there's no attribution. Best wishes, Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Le 20/07/2013 01:07, Dave F. a écrit : Hi Does anybody use the +/- zoom controls? I thought it was all mouse wheels/pad gestures finger gestures to zoom in out. Are they needed any more? Dave F. Oh, yes, they are. I use them to see the wide region around a spot, e.g. find the big city near it, without changing the setting of the map, without loosing the spot. Just click several + and -. -- FrViPofm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
James Mast wrote: I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work for me. :( Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere, but for the benefit of those reading here: The View tab does the same as the Permalink button. Exactly the same. Always has. So you can right-click/copy the permalink from there. I believe the real-soon-now intention is to have the URL continuously updating as you pan around the map (which is possible with JavaScript these days). cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Upgraded-map-controls-tp5770491p5770533.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
I miss the white lines on blurry Landsat background. So simple and elegant. Can someone set that up and make it an option in the layer switcher? ;) * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron From: Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net To: talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls Andrew Errington wrote: Also, my proposal for including a markerlink has not been taken up. Yet. Rome wasn't built in a day. I also didn't see any consultation on this topic. Just another fait accompli. Hey Andrew, I noticed you did some edits to the map the other day. That's fine, but you didn't give everyone a chance to comment on them before doing them. I think some of the tagging you used could have been improved, and your geometry is a bit off. Also, that road was arguably a highway=track, surface=asphalt, but you tagged it as highway=service. Please make sure to carry out full consultation before doing any edits. You just did them as a fait accompli and I think that's wrong. ...Exactly. These things are discussed, and discussed openly. It's just that the forum for discussion is not the bearpit that is talk@ (with good reason); that, pretty obviously, we don't wait to get the approval of every single OSM user before deploying; that we sometimes deploy in-progress work rather than waiting for every little detail to be fixed; and that we sometimes make changes that some people will never like. Because otherwise, the site would never change at all, and we'd still be on the Java applet (pre-Potlatch 1) with some barely legible white lines on a blurry Landsat background. At the same time as you're posting sceptically on this list, SteveC is moaning on Twitter about it being too little, too late (bit odd that a founding father spends so much time publicly slagging off his project, but there you go, everyone loves him for it). You simply can't keep everyone happy. OSM works because we trust that talented people will do amazing things. OSM trusts you, as a talented mapper, to make good edits in your area. OSM trusts the talented developers and sysadmins to do good things with the site and the hardware. Some things will happen which are not 100% to your liking. Learn to deal with it. Because the alternative is that, every time you make an edit, Andrew, you get 30 complaining mails saying well I'd have done it differently, you should have asked me first. The effect is that you give up editing. Believe me: I have some pretty obvious first-hand experience of this. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Upgraded-map-controls-tp5770491p5770535.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
From: Andrew Errington [mailto:erringt...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:42 PM To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls I also didn't see any consultation on this topic. Just another fait accompli. The pull request and automatic mail to the list went out 11 days ago. A test site on the dev server was set up. People commented, changes to the new UI were made. This was all done in the open and anyone could comment. Before that I believe there was a posting to the talk list, and before that many people brought it up as a feature they'd like to see out of samen's presentation. And there's no attribution. Can we finally put this to rest? I assume you mean there's no text in the bottom right hand corner stating (C) OpenStreetMap, because there definitely is attribution. There's a great big OpenStreetMap text and logo on the front page, and a Copyright License link prominently in the menu. On osm.org we're not only required to attribute on the front page, but virtually every other page as well has OSM data, often not on a map. For example, there's more than just the map on http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/250379363/history. Most websites will be using OSM data for a map in a viewbox. If that's all you're doing with OSM data then attributing in the corner of the viewport makes sense. OSM.org does a lot more with OSM data then that, and attributes in a way that makes sense for how it uses it. In any case, it's largely unrelated to the layer switcher. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On 2013-07-20 08:16, James Mast wrote: I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work for me. :( I agree to that. What's more: the map moves to the right when the sidebar closes after you click on the link, giving you a different map than you were looking at. It is not an improvement. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On 2013-07-20 10:25, Richard Fairhurst wrote: James Mast wrote: I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work for me. :( Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere, but for the benefit of those reading here: The View tab does the same as the Permalink button. Exactly the same. Always has. So you can right-click/copy the permalink from there. It does not do here. When I open the map it says http://www.openstreetmap.org in the address bar. I believe the real-soon-now intention is to have the URL continuously updating as you pan around the map (which is possible with JavaScript these days). Why not implemented that first then. Now we will have to wait if and when that happens and have an akward way of getting a permalink. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
the map moves to the right when the sidebar closes after you click on the link, giving you a different map than you were looking at. It is not an improvement. Sounds more like a simple bug report, and something simple to fix, than a reason for a flat condemnation. Perspective! * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron From: Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl To: talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls On 2013-07-20 08:16, James Mast wrote: I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work for me. :( I agree to that. What's more: the map moves to the right when the sidebar closes after you click on the link, giving you a different map than you were looking at. It is not an improvement. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On 2013-07-20 11:29, Paul Norman wrote: From: Andrew Errington [mailto:erringt...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:42 PM To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls I also didn't see any consultation on this topic. Just another fait accompli. The pull request and automatic mail to the list went out 11 days ago. A test Which list? site on the dev server was set up. People commented, changes to the new UI were made. This was all done in the open and anyone could comment. Before that I believe there was a posting to the talk list, and before that many people brought it up as a feature they'd like to see out of samen's presentation. I haven't seen that posting. Can you point it out for me please? I must say, I have not heard anything about any discussion about this. I admit, I do not read all lists so it may be on some other list than talk. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On Sábado, 20 de julio de 2013 10:55:58 Mikel Maron escribió: I miss the white lines on blurry Landsat background. So simple and elegant. Can someone set that up and make it an option in the layer switcher? ;) Those were the times :-D -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es i...@geonerd.org Un ordenador no es un televisor ni un microondas, es una herramienta compleja. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 17:39:18 Richard Fairhurst wrote: Andrew Errington wrote: Also, my proposal for including a markerlink has not been taken up. Yet. Rome wasn't built in a day. I also didn't see any consultation on this topic. Just another fait accompli. Hey Andrew, I noticed you did some edits to the map the other day. That's fine, but you didn't give everyone a chance to comment on them before doing them. I think some of the tagging you used could have been improved, and your geometry is a bit off. Also, that road was arguably a highway=track, surface=asphalt, but you tagged it as highway=service. Please make sure to carry out full consultation before doing any edits. You just did them as a fait accompli and I think that's wrong. ...Exactly. Not entirely. I do get your point, but if you are not happy with my work then feel free to correct it. It is a do-ocracy after all. Except for some things. If it really was a do-ocracy I'd turn on the zoom slider and implement a markerlink. These things are discussed, and discussed openly. It's just that the forum for discussion is not the bearpit that is talk@ (with good reason); that, pretty obviously, we don't wait to get the approval of every single OSM user before deploying; that we sometimes deploy in-progress work rather than waiting for every little detail to be fixed; and that we sometimes make changes that some people will never like. We could at least have had an announcement. Because otherwise, the site would never change at all, and we'd still be on the Java applet (pre-Potlatch 1) with some barely legible white lines on a blurry Landsat background. At the same time as you're posting sceptically on this list, SteveC is moaning on Twitter about it being too little, too late (bit odd that a founding father spends so much time publicly slagging off his project, but there you go, everyone loves him for it). You simply can't keep everyone happy. OSM works because we trust that talented people will do amazing things. OSM trusts you, as a talented mapper, to make good edits in your area. OSM trusts the talented developers and sysadmins to do good things with the site and the hardware. Some things will happen which are not 100% to your liking. Learn to deal with it. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy with how OSM is progressing, and I realise that such a large project must necessarily move with fits and starts, but I reserve the right to state my opinion, positively or negatively. Because the alternative is that, every time you make an edit, Andrew, you get 30 complaining mails saying well I'd have done it differently, you should have asked me first. The effect is that you give up editing. Believe me: I have some pretty obvious first-hand experience of this. I'd be very happy if someone who knows better would come along and tell me the best way to do it. Until then I'll continue as best I can. Best wishes, Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 17:25:27 Richard Fairhurst wrote: James Mast wrote: I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work for me. :( Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere, but for the benefit of those reading here: The View tab does the same as the Permalink button. Exactly the same. Always has. So you can right-click/copy the permalink from there. That's very cool. I did not know that. I probably missed it in the other three places you mentioned it too, so I added it to the Wiki in case others missed it as well. Best wishes, Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Am 20.07.2013 01:38, schrieb Dave F.: On 20/07/2013 00:22, Toby Murray wrote: You aren't in the #osm IRC channel, are you :) No. I can't stand the cliquey, unilateral time zone defined exclusion of that. I prefer to discuss with *all* in *all* timezones. A while back a decision was made to change something in OSM (apologies, I fail to remember what) It turned out it was decided upon in a couple of hours by a select few in the European time zone. A poor way to conduct business. Turns out, yes... they are still used. It was actually interesting to watch a coworker who doesn't know much about online maps interacting with osm.org http://osm.org. This was a month or so ago. They actually used the pan controls instead of dragging the map. I was kind of amazed :) Right, but it doesn't *have* to be used. In this instance it was lack of knowledge. If the controls weren't there they'd find out the better way to do it. Or they would fail to use the feature. Please think about notebook touchpad users when they don't have a mouse currently nor a touchscreen, too - there you NEED these controls. (For me that's sometimes the case, not at my own desk of course) Regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Am 20.07.2013 11:53, schrieb Maarten Deen: On 2013-07-20 10:25, Richard Fairhurst wrote: James Mast wrote: I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work for me. :( Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere, but for the benefit of those reading here: The View tab does the same as the Permalink button. Exactly the same. Always has. So you can right-click/copy the permalink from there. It does not do here. When I open the map it says http://www.openstreetmap.org in the address bar. I believe the real-soon-now intention is to have the URL continuously updating as you pan around the map (which is possible with JavaScript these days). Why not implemented that first then. Now we will have to wait if and when that happens and have an akward way of getting a permalink. I had to search for what Richard meant with View Tab, in German it's Karte (Map), but there he's right: clicking on it is in fact the same as the previous Permanent-Link in the bottom. Nevertheless one has to know it is or to know what the permanent link should look like. In general I hope the Share-Box is far from final yet with respect on it's content, as even there one has to KNOW that the link behind Long Link and short link is the one to copy; especially as they behave differently on click: Following Long Link allows me to copy the link from the address bar, Following Short Link does not allow to copy the SHORT link from there, as it's directly forwarded to the long link there. In both cases a box might be better showing the link on the page itself. But hey - except of the missing zoom-level indication I think it's definitively a step in the right direction, so thanks to all involved, and I'm happy to see more and more cool stuff on the osm page in the future ;) regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On 2013-07-20 13:35, Peter Wendorff wrote: Am 20.07.2013 11:53, schrieb Maarten Deen: On 2013-07-20 10:25, Richard Fairhurst wrote: James Mast wrote: I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work for me. :( Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere, but for the benefit of those reading here: The View tab does the same as the Permalink button. Exactly the same. Always has. So you can right-click/copy the permalink from there. It does not do here. When I open the map it says http://www.openstreetmap.org in the address bar. I believe the real-soon-now intention is to have the URL continuously updating as you pan around the map (which is possible with JavaScript these days). Why not implemented that first then. Now we will have to wait if and when that happens and have an akward way of getting a permalink. I had to search for what Richard meant with View Tab, in German it's Karte (Map), but there he's right: clicking on it is in fact the same as the previous Permanent-Link in the bottom. Nevertheless one has to know it is or to know what the permanent link should look like. Ah yes, I see that now too. I never saw that feature before. That is quite handy, even though, as you say, you have to know it is there. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Whoops - resending to the right talk@ list From: Maarten Deen [mailto:md...@xs4all.nl] Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 2:57 AM To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls On 2013-07-20 11:29, Paul Norman wrote: From: Andrew Errington [mailto:erringt...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:42 PM To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls I also didn't see any consultation on this topic. Just another fait accompli. The pull request and automatic mail to the list went out 11 days ago. A test Which list? All rails port pull requests and issues automatically goes to the rails-dev@ list, which is the list for discussion of rails port (web site) development If you prefer a format other than email, I believe if you watch the repo (where the source is) though github you can get all the updates. site on the dev server was set up. People commented, changes to the new UI were made. This was all done in the open and anyone could comment. Before that I believe there was a posting to the talk list, and before that many people brought it up as a feature they'd like to see out of samen's presentation. I haven't seen that posting. Can you point it out for me please? I must say, I have not heard anything about any discussion about this. I admit, I do not read all lists so it may be on some other list than talk. http://lists.osm.org/pipermail/talk/2013-July/067499.html (in reply to Andrew Errington) Also of note is two posts later a link to https://f.cloud.github.com/assets/98601/778982/12bfaae4-e9c1-11e2-8afa-826d2 5c371cb.png which outlines additional UI changes that are already under development that deal with Andrew's complaints ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On 2013-07-20 12:33, Paul Norman wrote: From: Maarten Deen [mailto:md...@xs4all.nl] Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 2:57 AM To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls On 2013-07-20 11:29, Paul Norman wrote: From: Andrew Errington [mailto:erringt...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 11:42 PM To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls I also didn't see any consultation on this topic. Just another fait accompli. The pull request and automatic mail to the list went out 11 days ago. A test Which list? All rails port pull requests and issues automatically goes to the rails-dev@ list, which is the list for discussion of rails port (web site) development If you prefer a format other than email, I believe if you watch the repo (where the source is) though github you can get all the updates. site on the dev server was set up. People commented, changes to the new UI were made. This was all done in the open and anyone could comment. Before that I believe there was a posting to the talk list, and before that many people brought it up as a feature they'd like to see out of samen's presentation. I haven't seen that posting. Can you point it out for me please? I must say, I have not heard anything about any discussion about this. I admit, I do not read all lists so it may be on some other list than talk. http://lists.osm.org/pipermail/talk/2013-July/067499.html (in reply to Andrew Errington) Okay, so you even have to read all threads, even if you don't find them insteresting anymore... Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Andrew Errington wrote: On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 15:16:10 James Mast wrote: I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work for me.:( -James I miss the zoom slider, and I also agree that permalink should remain on top, accessible with one click. Also, my proposal for including a markerlink has not been taken up. The links have always had a few ways of picking them up and trying to interpret scale from the scale bar is not as intuitive as the zoom bar. But my problem is using the map now on my Galaxy4 phone. I use landscape and only the top 4 buttons are accessible. But then a lot of applications seem to ignore the problem of smaller rotatable displays :( Sliding the map around conflicts with zooming the screen to SEE the controls! FORTUNATELY I have my own copy of the older style viewer still running so if people want access contact me off list ;) I'm targeting the UK so including a few more layers I also didn't see any consultation on this topic. Just another fait accompli. I seem to have missed that this was even being discussed so you are not alone! And there's no attribution. It would be nice since the other tile layers have attribution that the osm sourced tiles had a similar tag if only to educate users! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Hi James, That issue has been reported and is being worked on: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/356 On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 20/07/2013 12:57, Paul Norman wrote: Whoops - resending to the right talk@ list Which list? All rails port pull requests and issues automatically goes to the rails-dev@ list, which is the list for discussion of rails port (web site) development If you prefer a format other than email, I believe if you watch the repo (where the source is) though github you can get all the updates. Rails port pull requests?!?! wtf. How about posting it to a real world, end user forum that speaks in English? And also not to an instant chat one that only certain people, in certain time zones, can see. I really think some developers are living in their own world. Dave F. __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Good to know that. Hope it can be fixed soon as I don't like having to add a second comment to the note, just to subscribe myself to it for e-mail updates. (At least the follow-up comment part is still working when you're logged in.) Anyways, I had already submitted a ticket on Trac before your e-mail arrived. I bet TomH will probably mark it as a duplicate very soon. lol. -James From: t...@macwright.org Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 19:09:27 -0400 To: dave...@madasafish.com CC: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls Hi James, That issue has been reported and is being worked on: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/356 On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 20/07/2013 12:57, Paul Norman wrote: Whoops - resending to the right talk@ list Which list? All rails port pull requests and issues automatically goes to the rails-dev@ list, which is the list for discussion of rails port (web site) development If you prefer a format other than email, I believe if you watch the repo (where the source is) though github you can get all the updates. Rails port pull requests?!?! wtf. How about posting it to a real world, end user forum that speaks in English? And also not to an instant chat one that only certain people, in certain time zones, can see. I really think some developers are living in their own world. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
From: Maarten Deen [mailto:md...@xs4all.nl] Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls http://lists.osm.org/pipermail/talk/2013-July/067499.html (in reply to Andrew Errington) Okay, so you even have to read all threads, even if you don't find them insteresting anymore... My original reply was to Andrew complaint's. I think it's entirely reasonable to expect someone to read messages sent directly to them in reply to an earlier message by them. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On 20/07/2013 09:25, Richard Fairhurst wrote: James Mast wrote: I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work for me. :( Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere, Why wasn't it mentioned in the link from the tweet? http://blog.openstreetmap.org/2013/07/19/new-map-control/ Actually why wasn't any of the instructions mentioned in the link? I see there's a video presentation, but really, at 26 minutes long, who has the time patience or bandwidth to wade through that? #real_world I've just listened to the first three minutes of it. A classic example of why programmers shouldn't present/explain/write help files for their own programs. Again #real_world. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Hi Dave, Please be civil, we're all trying our best to be nice and make progress here. It's inappropriate to start ad-hominem attacking developers, especially in the case of Saman - who is in fact a designer, not to mention a real person, in the real world, with actual emotions. Thanks, Tom On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 20/07/2013 09:25, Richard Fairhurst wrote: James Mast wrote: I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work for me. :( Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere, Why wasn't it mentioned in the link from the tweet? http://blog.openstreetmap.org/**2013/07/19/new-map-control/http://blog.openstreetmap.org/2013/07/19/new-map-control/ Actually why wasn't any of the instructions mentioned in the link? I see there's a video presentation, but really, at 26 minutes long, who has the time patience or bandwidth to wade through that? #real_world I've just listened to the first three minutes of it. A classic example of why programmers shouldn't present/explain/write help files for their own programs. Again #real_world. Dave F. __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
I just watched all 30 minutes of the video. I am a professional software engineer, the designer seemed extremely competent. Because of the presentation, I trust that the people working on his know what they are doing and I am very excited to see what comes next. Please lets give them some space to work. This is just the first step On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:18 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 20/07/2013 09:25, Richard Fairhurst wrote: James Mast wrote: I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to the map location behind buttons. Instead of just one click to get the map location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work for me. :( Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere, Why wasn't it mentioned in the link from the tweet? http://blog.openstreetmap.org/2013/07/19/new-map-control/ Actually why wasn't any of the instructions mentioned in the link? I see there's a video presentation, but really, at 26 minutes long, who has the time patience or bandwidth to wade through that? #real_world I've just listened to the first three minutes of it. A classic example of why programmers shouldn't present/explain/write help files for their own programs. Again #real_world. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
Hello Tom I reject mildly resent your criticism that I made an ad hominem attack. I know nothing personally of this man. My criticisms are based purely on his inability to communicate clearly. As the primary reason for his lecture was to explain the new layout I feel perfectly entitled to point out his failings. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ad-hominem You appear to believe that as he has emotions, he is above criticism. Strange. Dave F. On 21/07/2013 01:42, Tom MacWright wrote: Hi Dave, Please be civil, we're all trying our best to be nice and make progress here. It's inappropriate to start ad-hominem attacking developers, especially in the case of Saman - who is in fact a designer, not to mention a real person, in the real world, with actual emotions. Thanks, Tom ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
My criticisms are based purely on his inability to communicate clearly. Dave, As you say, you know nothing personally of this man, and yet you have discerned he is unable to communicate? Saman is not above criticism. However, we, as a community, are above sweeping statements such as the ones you have made. Constructive feedback is a vital part of progress, but please be more considerate of your fellow community members who are working hard to make OpenStreetMap.org a more useful tool for everyone when you disparage not just their work, but them personally. In addition, if you are going to take this route, please be sure to focus your responses on ideas and products put forth, and do not make character attacks. Having watched a video of a presentation does not entitle you or anyone to point out a person's failings. On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 9:08 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Hello Tom I reject mildly resent your criticism that I made an ad hominem attack. I know nothing personally of this man. My criticisms are based purely on his inability to communicate clearly. As the primary reason for his lecture was to explain the new layout I feel perfectly entitled to point out his failings. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/**ad-hominemhttp://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ad-hominem You appear to believe that as he has emotions, he is above criticism. Strange. Dave F. On 21/07/2013 01:42, Tom MacWright wrote: Hi Dave, Please be civil, we're all trying our best to be nice and make progress here. It's inappropriate to start ad-hominem attacking developers, especially in the case of Saman - who is in fact a designer, not to mention a real person, in the real world, with actual emotions. Thanks, Tom __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
My reply is going private as it's now OT. On 21/07/2013 02:17, Kathleen Danielson wrote: My criticisms are based purely on his inability to communicate clearly. Dave, As you say, you know nothing personally of this man, and yet you have discerned he is unable to communicate? Saman is not above criticism. However, we, as a community, are above sweeping statements such as the ones you have made. Constructive feedback is a vital part of progress, but please be more considerate of your fellow community members who are working hard to make OpenStreetMap.org a more useful tool for everyone when you disparage not just their work, but them personally. In addition, if you are going to take this route, please be sure to focus your responses on ideas and products put forth, and do not make character attacks. Having watched a video of a presentation does not entitle you or anyone to point out a person's failings. On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 9:08 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com mailto:dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Hello Tom I reject mildly resent your criticism that I made an ad hominem attack. I know nothing personally of this man. My criticisms are based purely on his inability to communicate clearly. As the primary reason for his lecture was to explain the new layout I feel perfectly entitled to point out his failings. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ad-hominem You appear to believe that as he has emotions, he is above criticism. Strange. Dave F. On 21/07/2013 01:42, Tom MacWright wrote: Hi Dave, Please be civil, we're all trying our best to be nice and make progress here. It's inappropriate to start ad-hominem attacking developers, especially in the case of Saman - who is in fact a designer, not to mention a real person, in the real world, with actual emotions. Thanks, Tom ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
You aren't in the #osm IRC channel, are you :) Turns out, yes... they are still used. It was actually interesting to watch a coworker who doesn't know much about online maps interacting with osm.org. This was a month or so ago. They actually used the pan controls instead of dragging the map. I was kind of amazed :) Toby On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Hi Does anybody use the +/- zoom controls? I thought it was all mouse wheels/pad gestures finger gestures to zoom in out. Are they needed any more? Dave F. __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On 20/07/2013 00:22, Toby Murray wrote: You aren't in the #osm IRC channel, are you :) No. I can't stand the cliquey, unilateral time zone defined exclusion of that. I prefer to discuss with *all* in *all* timezones. A while back a decision was made to change something in OSM (apologies, I fail to remember what) It turned out it was decided upon in a couple of hours by a select few in the European time zone. A poor way to conduct business. Turns out, yes... they are still used. It was actually interesting to watch a coworker who doesn't know much about online maps interacting with osm.org http://osm.org. This was a month or so ago. They actually used the pan controls instead of dragging the map. I was kind of amazed :) Right, but it doesn't *have* to be used. In this instance it was lack of knowledge. If the controls weren't there they'd find out the better way to do it. Toby On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com mailto:dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Hi Does anybody use the +/- zoom controls? I thought it was all mouse wheels/pad gestures finger gestures to zoom in out. Are they needed any more? Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls
On 20.07.2013 01:07, Dave F. wrote: Does anybody use the +/- zoom controls? I thought it was all mouse wheels/pad gestures finger gestures to zoom in out. I don't use these controls if I can avoid it, but sometimes I'm stuck with them. Examples include browser compatibility issues (Firefox Mobile, for example, used to scale the entire page instead of zooming the map, but that has thankfully been fixed now) and old phones with no multi-touch. Every now and then I also find myself in front of laptops with no obvious mousewheel equivalent and simply use the map controls instead of trying all sorts of key combos. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
